Where does Carrick go in terms of all time greats for United?

[AndyJ1985]

He's been a consistently great midfielder who I'd put in the tier below the very best. He's also one of the most underrated English players of the last couple decades.

 

[JinnerJamie]

Probably the 4th best Geordie we've ever had... Charlton, Robson, Bruce and Carrick.

He'll go down as a great no doubt.

 

[Raees]

I don't see what Scholes did to belong to the top tier in people's lists other than being a darling of the fans. There was never a season in which both Beckham and Scholes played together in which Scholes was more important or influential to the team, other than perhaps Beckham's last. Scholes actually tended to be most expendable of the famous midfield four.

On pure footballing ability, I could see a case could be made for Scholes as top tier, but then by that line of reasoning, Keane would be in the third tier. Scholes, Giggs and Beckham belong in the same tier.

Whilst I agree to an extent that Scholes wasn't as influential, while Beckham was at his peak.. you've got the 95/96 season, 02/03 season and 06-08, where he was very influential and the midfield heartbeat of the side. Even outside of those seasons, I'd say after 02/03, he was still making his mark on the side.. but due to him being quite, no one really understood just how much of an important player he was for us. Even I admit, that when I go back and watch old footage of us play, it makes me shocked to see how much of a role he does play pre 2006, in the tempo of our game and how much quality he has with his passing, dribbling etc.

On the flip side, for me Giggs really does get overrated outside of his initial burst onto the scene.. early to mid nineties, was prime Giggs and for me after that he never really took the mantle and became the heartbeat of the side at any stage, whereas for me Scholes did prove he can be the 'midfield' heartbeat of the side. Anyway I digress, based on pure midfielders.. I'd rank United centre/attacking mids as follows in terms of peak ability.

In terms of his career, and overall standing, I'd have him ahead of Ince.

Butt was rated highly by Fergie but suffered alot with his eyesight after breaking into the side and it hindered his progress. Not sure if it got resolved, but this was a guy who Fergie trusted right away in the most serious of fixtures.


Tier 1: Sir Bobby Charlton/Duncan Edwards
Tier 2: Bryan Robson
Tier 3: Roy Keane
Tier 4: Paul Scholes
Tier 5: Nobby Stiles
Tier 6: Paddy Crerand
Tier 7:Paul Ince
Tier 8: Michael Carrick
Tier 9: Nicky Butt

 

[Jaybomb]

Hes in the same bracket as Butt, Fletcher, etc for me. Good servant and can be an important player... but not world class.

Calling him a legend would be a bit of a stretch for me aswell. If hes a legend, what is Charlton, Scholes, Keane, Robson etc?

Like I said, good player on his day but we've had a LOT of "good players"

 

[Zoo]

Calling him a legend would be a bit of a stretch for me aswell. If hes a legend, what is Charlton, Scholes, Keane, Robson etc?

Also legends.

 

[Maradona10]

I think it will be very personal to place him in one tier by everyone. I do think he will go down as a modern great of the club.

 

[whatwha]

I'd place him just a tier below the greats like Keane, Scholes.

Though I wonder if we are almost starting to overrate him due to how unbelievably poor the current team is without him on the pitch. We are far too reliant on him according to stats with/without him, and when watching the games you can see that he makes the team gel, but does that really make him one of the best midfielders ever?

 

[2cents]

Ince really doesn't get much love on this forum, a much more dynamic player than Carrick, although maybe lacking the same composure. I'd have Ince's 93/94 season over anything Carrick's done for us but t overall they're on the same level below Scholes, who is just below Keane.

 

[Raees]

Ince really doesn't get much love on this forum, a much more dynamic player than Carrick, although maybe lacking the same composure. I'd have Ince's 93/94 season over anything Carrick's done for us but t overall they're on the same level below Scholes, who is just below Keane.

Agreed. As an England fan as well, really had alot of admiration for Ince.. for me definitely ahead of Carrick for me as a player taking all his career into account, but purely club wise.. Carrick has done more for our club. Peak seasons wise, Ince ahead.

 

[Physiocrat]

Tier 1: Sir Bobby Charlton/Duncan Edwards
Tier 2: Bryan Robson
Tier 3: Roy Keane
Tier 4: Paul Scholes
Tier 5: Nobby Stiles
Tier 6: Paddy Crerand
Tier 7:Paul Ince
Tier 8: Michael Carrick
Tier 9: Nicky Butt

That's pretty fair overall although I don't know much about Crerand. I'd put them in tiers together as splitting them is difficult outside of a particular set-up.

I'd go:

Tier 1: Sir Bobby
Tier 2: Edwards (there's just not enough footage for me to put him in 1), Robson, Keane, Scholes
Tier 3: Stiles, Ince, Carrick
Tier 4: Butt

 

[DMacgraw]

Tier 1: Sir Bobby Charlton/Duncan Edwards

I was somewhat surprised to read this far before someone mentioned Big Dunc, and in almost his proper place. I might point out that Sir Bobby has always placed Duncan above himself in the footballing pecking order.

 

[VeevaVee]

He's not one of the all time greats, but he's been a great servant to the club and a massively useful player. He'll be remembered well when he leaves but not revered by those that weren't around while he was playing like all time greats are.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I get the sense he's part of the class of '92. Feels like he's been here forever. Now in his twilight years she's still so vital to our setup. Doesn't get injured. I wonder how many years longer he can do this?

I wish Rooney was still good. It's nice to still have some of Fergie's team still in the side.

In terms of where to put him? I'd have him slightly below Roy Keane. Maybe at the same tier as Andy Cole.

 

[red4ever 79]

No where near a legend for me. Been a good player over the years,and one we seemingly cannot replace. However not good enough to be considered a legend. I would put him ahead of Butt but behind Scholes, Keane, Ince, Veron.

 

[RedChip]

Insult to Carrick saying he's on Butt's level.

Yeah, it is. Butt never came close to the impact Carrick has had; so don't know how that comparison makes: it is not as if he had more talent either.

 

[thepolice123]

Ince above Carrick?

The same player who engineered a move out of Old Trafford, joined the scouse, mouthed us off so many times during his stint there and even celebrated like a madman after scoring against us?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Depends on how long he continues. If he plays for us for another few years, in a lessened capacity, then he'll be at the Giggs/Scholes level for me. Not far off it as it is.

Rough ranking of our best CMs during the PL era:
Keane
Scholes
Carrick
Ince
Butt
Park*
Fletcher

(Robson was coming toward the end, so I haven't included him either).

I always thought Giggs was underrated in a central role for us. Still, I've left him out.

Veron.

Insane. He had about ten good games for us, and few came in the league. Whereas Carrick has been a constant in our most successful teams for over a decade. He's getting better with age, too. It's all about fitness. He can read the game like few others in world football (Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes, etc, could do the same) -- not that he's on their level in terms of technique/skill, but in terms of footballing intelligence (the reading of a game), he definitely is.

 

[2cents]

Ince above Carrick?

The same player who engineered a move out of Old Trafford, joined the scouse, mouthed us off so many times during his stint there and even celebrated like a madman after scoring against us?

Obviously it's about how good he was for us while he was here. Carrick's definitely more likable but I'd have Ince a slight notch above as a player, people forget how instrumental he was to our first title win in ages and the legendary season that followed.

 

[Raees]

That's pretty fair overall although I don't know much about Crerand. I'd put them in tiers together as splitting them is difficult outside of a particular set-up.

I'd go:

Tier 1: Sir Bobby
Tier 2: Edwards (there's just not enough footage for me to put him in 1), Robson, Keane, Scholes
Tier 3: Stiles, Ince, Carrick
Tier 4: Butt

I remember seeing Crerard in some full match clips of games from the 60's and he was a really good player to watch.

http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=505

I know Pes Stats, isn't unfallible, but it confirms that other people who went back to watch him play rated him fairly highly too. Would be interested to see how high guys who actually were alive to watch hm back then thought of him and if I am overrating what I saw of him.

Stiles for me has to go above Carrick and Ince. You're talking about a guy who had it in him to mark Eusebio, a world cup winner and the best ever english DM. Yes, we shouldn't look at international performances, but its not like his club career was any less impressive. Proved himself in all levels of the game.

 

[Successful]

He's had 10 years with us. Scored a handful of goals. Not a prolific player. He will be like a paragraph in our club. Nowhere near legend status. Perhaps he will be mentioned as one hell of a passer of the ball between a couple of rounds at the pub 20 years from now.

 

[thepolice123]

Obviously it's about how good he was for us while he was here. Carrick's definitely more likable but I'd have Ince a slight notch above as a player, people forget how instrumental he was to our first title win in ages and the legendary season that followed.

Ince was no doubt the superior player but is that the only criteria in ranking a club legend?

 

[2cents]

Ince was no doubt the superior player but is that the only criteria in ranking a club legend?

When the player we're comparing him to is Carrick, I think it's fair enough.

 

[Bubz27]

A mainstay throughout the most successful period in our history.

 

[Raees]

He's had 10 years with us. Scored a handful of goals. Not a prolific player. He will be like a paragraph in our club. Nowhere near legend status. Perhaps he will be mentioned as one hell of a passer of the ball between a couple of rounds at the pub 20 years from now.

Truth is in an ideal world, him and Rooney would not have been allowed to have 10 years at this club and get to 'legendary' status. It shows that standards have dropped and mere longevity of service is putting everyone in the legend bracket. If we had reinforced our midfield and attack properly, both these guys wouldn't be at the club post 2013.

 

[Physiocrat]

I remember seeing Crerard in some full match clips of games from the 60's and he was a really good player to watch.

http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=505

I know Pes Stats, isn't unfallible, but it confirms that other people who went back to watch him play rated him fairly highly too. Would be interested to see how high guys who actually were alive to watch hm back then thought of him and if I am overrating what I saw of him.

Stiles for me has to go above Carrick and Ince. You're talking about a guy who had it in him to mark Eusebio, a world cup winner and the best ever english DM. Yes, we shouldn't look at international performances, but its not like his club career was any less impressive. Proved himself in all levels of the game.

I see the point about Stiles I just don't see him on a level with Keane et al. That's some impressive PES stats for Crerand. I may try and see some more footage of him.

 

[thepolice123]

When the player we're comparing him to is Carrick, I think it's fair enough.

Really? You're going to tell me how is that fair enough?

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Butt? He wasn't even first choice for most of his career! I think he benefitted by being bracketed with Scholes, Beckham, GNev, etc in terms of his standing. Carrick a class above Butty IMO.

 

[2cents]

Really? You're going to tell me how is that fair enough?

Well it's not like Carrick is a character, a **** figure or anything. He's a pretty dull personality, and a tidy but unspectacular player. Ince was a bit of a better player and had more iconic moments for us while he was here.

 

[Successful]

Butt? He wasn't even first choice for most of his career! I think he benefitted by being bracketed with Scholes, Beckham, GNev, etc in terms of his standing. Carrick a class above Butty IMO.

Butt is in the Gibson bracket. Had he been a signing instead of local promotion he'd be considered a total flop.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

He is probably our 3rd best central midfield player since football was reborn in '92.

I struggle to look at anything before then with any real substance.

Is he an iconic, definitive player? No. Is he a legend? Yes, albeit a tier below Keane and Scholes.

I'd put him above Ince overall, full United careers compared.

 

[facund]

Butt is in the Gibson bracket. Had he been a signing instead of local promotion he'd be considered a total flop.

There is some over-rating of Butt in this thread but no need to go all nutty and do the exact opposite.
Butt was a good player for us and made over 300 appearances in an era when we had an incredibly strong midfield, the idea that he was on a level comparable to Gibson is daft (Gibson had less than 20 starts in the league for us).

 

[Joga Bonito]

I remember seeing Crerard in some full match clips of games from the 60's and he was a really good player to watch.

http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=505

I know Pes Stats, isn't unfallible, but it confirms that other people who went back to watch him play rated him fairly highly too. Would be interested to see how high guys who actually were alive to watch hm back then thought of him and if I am overrating what I saw of him.

Can't say I'm an expert on him by any means but he was immense in the FA Cup final against Leicester and ran the show for us. Fantastic passer and playmaker, who was deceptively skillful on the ball (see his assist for Law in that final), with some bite in his defensive game too. A key player for the United side of the 60s, a shame he never quite got the chance to shine for Scotland as they were blessed with an abundant of central midfielders during the 60s - Mackay, Bremner, Baxter, Murdock, Berti Auld etc (I'm sure I'm forgetting someone).

Stiles for me has to go above Carrick and Ince. You're talking about a guy who had it in him to mark Eusebio, a world cup winner and the best ever english DM. Yes, we shouldn't look at international performances, but its not like his club career was any less impressive. Proved himself in all levels of the game

Indeed, one of those players who tends to go under the radar at times but there were very few who were better at what he did for both England and United.

I see the point about Stiles I just don't see him on a level with Keane et al. That's some impressive PES stats for Crerand. I may try and see some more footage of him.

The FA Cup final against Leicester is well worth the watch.

http://footballia.net/players/pat-timothy-crerand

 

[OL29]

Great player when on song but for some reason people tend to gloss over his inconsistencies.

His first three seasons were very good however, for the next two or three years I remember him receiving a fair bit of criticism for lacklustre performances. He was also poor under Moyes and again, inconsistent in Van Gaal's time. He also never really made the most of the few chances he got for England.

I think due to him being very cultured for an English player he gets an easy ride in comparison to some of his less refined counterparts but I wouldn't put him in the very top class of midfielders. Probably a couple tiers below.

 

[Escape Goat]

All time great? Fecking hell, standards really have dropped the last three seasons.

 

[Mike09]

Tier 1: Vidic, Robson, Keane, Ronaldo, RVN
Tier 2: Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Rio, Stam
Tier 2.5: Carrick, Neville, Evra, Cole
Tier 3: Park, Butt, Brown, Fletcher, Ronny Johnsen

I never watch Sir Bobby, Best and Law before so I won't put them in the list but if I have to it has to be in tier 1 since they won best player of the year award before (ballon d'or). Carrick is definitely up there very closed with the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Beckham in my opinion.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Same tier as Nicky Butt and the like for me.

Yep I agree. Same as Fletcher. And not an all time great either.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Tier 1: Vidic, Robson, Keane, Ronaldo, RVN
Tier 2: Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Rio, Stam
Tier 2.5: Carrick, Neville, Evra, Cole
Tier 3: Park, Butt, Brown, Fletcher, Ronny Johnsen

I never watch Sir Bobby, Best and Law before so I won't put them in the list but if I have to it has to be in tier 1 since they won best player of the year award before (ballon d'or). Carrick is definitely up there very closed with the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Beckham in my opinion.

Vidic above Giggs Scholes Beckham Stam and Rio??

 

[charlenefan]

No where near a legend for me. Been a good player over the years,and one we seemingly cannot replace. However not good enough to be considered a legend. I would put him ahead of Butt but behind Scholes, Keane, Ince, Veron.

Verona over Carrick???

Joke, like the other fella said Veron had about 10 good games, Carrick has had over a 100 (paraphrasing Carrick has had way more than 100 and 10 good games is probably pushing it for Veron)

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

All time great? Fecking hell, standards really have dropped the last three seasons.

Yeah, let's forget that we won our last five PL titles and made it to 3 three CL finals with him shielding the back four. The standards drop when people cry over losing Schneiderlin, when they think that Bastian, at his current state, deserves more playing time from Jose and when they consider Herrera to be already captain material, not when a player with Carrick's contribution to the club receives credit.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Verona over Carrick???

Joke, like the other fella said Veron had about 10 good games, Carrick has had over a 100 (paraphrasing Carrick has had way more than 100 and 10 good games is probably pushing it for Veron)

For us Carrick has obviously been the better player but generally Veron is one of he best midfielders ever.