Bwuk
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Top 3.
If I was to show most balls lost from dribbles messi would be higher than ronaldo purely from the fact he dribbles more. Its simple math. Ronaldo as a player has soo much in his arsenal that it'd be weird for any player to say they are not scared of him. All people talk about is Ronaldo's goal scoring but he has 85 assists since moving to Real which is very high. He has the 5th most assists in the last 5 years out of the top 5 leagues in europe. Thats ridiculous considering most don't see him as a creative force.
http://dailyentertainment.com/top-10-assist-kings-2010-2015-in-the-top-5-european-leagues/8/
The Messi debate can stay in that other thread, but Luiz Ronaldo?
It really is laughable to even try to claim that he'd rank higher in an all time list than Cristiano Ronaldo. What has the guy won for his clubs? 1 major league title and zero Champions League?
I thought we were discussing the BETTER player, not the more talented, otherwise you might as well have Ronaldinho in the top 3.There are several people in this thread - who have seen both players play at their peaks - and would put Luiz Ronaldo above Ronaldo, because he is genuinely the most gifted footballer they've ever had the pleasure of watching.
It is not a laughable opinion, frankly there are probably many people the world over that share it... and for you to claim it that it is, is extremely arrogant of you. Ridiculous trying to throw trophies won as if that proves the poin, I could easily point to the two World Cups, but I won't, I'll simply say that at his peak, Ronaldo was a player with no rival.
No, he has more dribbles --- and at a higher percentage (the highest of all players, actually)
You should check this out:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
I thought we were discussing the BETTER player, not the more talented, otherwise you might as well have Ronaldinho in the top 3.
Also, I just find that opinion laughable, but I don't preach on about how wrong it is, for real arrogance, look no further than the Messi v Ronaldo thread and the Messi-fans and their FACTS brigade.
You could point to the 2 world cups, one of which he did as much to win as David May in our CL win in 1999.
You're still going on about talent... he could have been the best ever if he didn't suffer all those injuries, but the fact is, he did, and if you look at his career, he achieved much much less than Cristiano and have never come close to Cristiano's scoring record for the past 5-6 seasons (this despite the fact that he plays as a striker only).To dismiss someones opinion as laughable is arrogance, it might not be Messi vs. Ronaldo thread level (I can't be arsed getting involved in that bollocks) but I digress... Luiz Ronaldo was the most gifted and at his peak, realised that potential and then some. For the years at his peak he was one of the greatest footballers to have ever graced the planet and, in mine - and many others - opinion, that puts him above Cristiano as one the greatest ever players... because, for a time, he was that great.
It's not saying Cristiano is crap, its not downplaying how good he is, it's just not putting him ahead of Ronaldo. IF you want to laugh at that opinion, fine, but that doesn't make yours anymore correct.
And, well, one World Cup... how unimpressive.
What I said is that Messi would have more balls lost from Dribbles not that his dribbling rate wasn't higher. Also of course Messi has more assists that wasn't my point. My point is Ronaldo is dangerous no matter where on the pitch he is. He has the 5th most assists in the last 5 years out of all the 5 top leagues. That shows a player that can hurt you with their passing and involvement as well as their goals.
You're still going on about talent... he could have been the best ever if he didn't suffer all those injuries, but the fact is, he did, and if you look at his career, he achieved much much less than Cristiano and have never come close to Cristiano's scoring record for the past 5-6 seasons (this despite the fact that he plays as a striker only).
For a time he was great, but that time was (sadly for the football world), too short for me to think of him as being that great, otherwise Ronaldinho deserves to be right up there too.
In my honest opinion, that's what it boils down to. He was at "world best" kind of level for 96-97 and 97-98, and never again.No I'm not...
"Luiz Ronaldo was the most gifted and at his peak, realised that potential and then some. For the years at his peak he was one of the greatest footballers to have ever graced the planet"
Even despite his injuries, he still managed to be one of the best ever. Also, you act like Ronaldo was only great for 1 or 2 seasons....
Weird that you choose to ignore "crosses" when ronaldo is a winger. Whilst also ignore that 90% of all those assists came from great approach work from Ronaldo. For example I guess you arent counting the Marcelo assist vs Schalke because he hit a screamer in the top corner even though Ronaldo had to dribble past 2 players to cut it back for him. Or the Athletic goal which was a (easy lay off) But Ronaldo started and finished the whole move.So since you quoted that stat I saw his assist videos. He had 22 last season and that's an awesome number, but I can sincerely say about 4 showed great vision (3 were unexpected backheels, one was a flicked exchange with Benzema). There were some good crosses, and the rest were cutbacks/layoffs/passes where the scorer did the work.
For me assists are indirect, the quality involved is creativity, and while he isn't uncreative he isn't extraordinary either.
Pele against England in 1970
That's because there's no real need for him to play like that for Madrid.
As pleasant for the eye he was, don't see how people can overlook this fact (and in every club he played, at the very worst case was a top 3 team in his country, with 4 out of 5 clubs he played in Europe were top 10 in Europe). Or the fact that he wa outscored from the likes of Oliver Bierhoff. Seriously, can someone imagine Ronaldo/Messi getting outscored (in the same league) from Luca Toni?!The Messi debate can stay in that other thread, but Luiz Ronaldo?
It really is laughable to even try to claim that he'd rank higher in an all time list than Cristiano Ronaldo. What has the guy won for his clubs? 1 major league title and zero Champions League?
Considering that his passing is safe, and his vision is average, how do you explain that since his move to Madrid he has the fifth highest number of assists in the top five leagues?But he isn't a player who can make something out of nothing, his vision is average, his passing is just safe. Which is why I was not scared of him in any position when he was on the ball outside the box.
If I'm supporting the team playing vs Barca, the moment Messi gets the ball I look up to check how many extra defenders are available to cover his dribbling, also check to see if anyone is marking the run on the left wing which he always finds, and finally if there are any other open players in the box. And how far from goal he is. You can call it bias, this is my gut feel when Messi has the ball, it's so different from when Ronaldo has it.
Yeah, they all outscored Zidane too.As pleasant for the eye he was, don't see how people can overlook this fact (and in every club he played, at the very worst case was a top 3 team in his country, with 4 out of 5 clubs he played in Europe were top 10 in Europe). Or the fact that he wa outscored from the likes of Oliver Bierhoff. Seriously, can someone imagine Ronaldo/Messi getting outscored (in the same league) from Luca Toni?!
More gifted, but not better. If he didn't get injured, it would have been another matter though, IMO.There are several people in this thread - who have seen both players play at their peaks - and would put Luiz Ronaldo above Ronaldo, because he is genuinely the most gifted footballer they've ever had the pleasure of watching.
It is not a laughable opinion, frankly there are probably many people the world over that share it... and for you to claim it that it is, is extremely arrogant of you. Ridiculous trying to throw trophies won as if that proves the poin, I could easily point to the two World Cups, but I won't, I'll simply say that at his peak, Ronaldo was a player with no rival.
Zidane wasn't a striker though.Yeah, they all outscored Zidane too.
Did you actually watch him for Inter. He was so much more than just a striker for them.
There are several people in this thread - who have seen both players play at their peaks - and would put Luiz Ronaldo above Ronaldo, because he is genuinely the most gifted footballer they've ever had the pleasure of watching.
It is not a laughable opinion, frankly there are probably many people the world over that share it... and for you to claim it that it is, is extremely arrogant of you. Ridiculous trying to throw trophies won as if that proves the poin, I could easily point to the two World Cups, but I won't, I'll simply say that at his peak, Ronaldo was a player with no rival.
C. Ronaldo has 751 matches, scoring 499 goals.pelé played 831 official matches, scoring 767 goals.
messi has played 456 official matches so far, with 349 goals.
ronaldo has 548 official matches so far, and is at 372 goals.
Ronaldo was playing alongside Taribo West, Colonnese, Moriero, Ze Elias, Cauet.. And those were all starters on the "final" against Juve who was a monster in those times
Cristiano spent his who career at the two richest clubs ever, who can spent 100m on bench players. Almost joke to compare on "club accomplishments"
What could they do with the ball? Just watch Ronaldo Luis Highlights in youtube and ask if he is the same level, ffs.
Considering that his passing is safe, and his vision is average, how do you explain that since his move to Madrid he has the fifth highest number of assists in the top five leagues?
Against us, the first goal came from nothing. It wasn't even a good cross but he jumped more than a meter and put it on goal. In the second goal, our entire team was in our box and he still managed to put it in the goal.
If the defenders/fans aren't scared from Ronaldo, it is because they know that regardless if they get scared or not, he'll still score. So better to enjoy the match than getting scared, it won't make any difference after all.
They still resulted in goals though. Which in the end is all that matters.You look up his assists and tell me. I did for his last season and thought that about 4-5 out of 22 showed genuine creativity (they unlocked a defence that looked to have all options covered), the rest were crosses and cutbacks.
Even Neymar already has a Champions League as top scorer under his belt, and he's nowhere near Ronaldo to me.
Thats the reason I posted it.Of all the Pele videos, that's probably the worst.
Just saying.
Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (). The following season from Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Villa and Milito. All in this time, not winning the league or UCL despite that Madrid was the best team in the world before he went there. On the following season he was put in the bench after Madrid signed Nistelrooy, and they not only won the league, but RvN became the top scorer in the league.
I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
They still resulted in goals though. Which in the end is all that matters.
If it was easy to make 22 assists for players who don't have vision and above passing ability, then more players would have been doing so. But they aren't. Which probably means that Ronaldo has a terrific vision and good passing ability. Not as good as Messi though (not many players have had it) but that isn't the point. Since his transfer to Madrid, he has been the second highest goalscorer in Europe, and fifth highest assist-maker. That is for a period of six years. Conclusion: not only he is one of the best goalscorers of all time, but he has also been one of the main creative forces in Europe for these years.
Then why have this debate at all? Compile goal or goal+assist stats for all players, rank them, and that's that.
For me Ronaldo's goalscoring consistency and variety is enough to put him in the top 10 ever. If I wanted to be controversial I would say that Laudrup's equally freakish vision should put him in the top 10 too? Btw check out a 10+ minute Laudrup passing video to see why assist numbers =/ vision.
Same here. His not having that extra creativity that some other players had means that I won't put him on top 3. Anyway the number of assists is an argument in itself that he is quite creative. Why not compile the assists stats? I think that they tell that he is quite creative, but in order to compare him with some of the most creative players ever, you need more than that. Which is why no-one mentions Ronaldo in the list of most creative players ever. But, he isn't the Chicharito-Inzaghi love child which seems to be from this forum (I actually made a satiric comparison of him with Hernandez and to my surprise it wasn't accepted well).Then why have this debate at all? Compile goal or goal+assist stats for all players, rank them, and that's that.
For me Ronaldo's goalscoring consistency and variety is enough to put him in the top 10 ever. If I wanted to be controversial I would say that Laudrup's equally freakish vision should put him in the top 10 too? Btw check out a 10+ minute Laudrup passing video to see why assist numbers =/ vision.
Then why have this debate at all? Compile goal or goal+assist stats for all players, rank them, and that's that.
For me Ronaldo's goalscoring consistency and variety is enough to put him in the top 10 ever. If I wanted to be controversial I would say that Laudrup's equally freakish vision should put him in the top 10 too? Btw check out a 10+ minute Laudrup passing video to see why assist numbers =/ vision.
Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (). The following season from Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Villa and Milito. All in this time, not winning the league or UCL despite that Madrid was the best team in the world before he went there. On the following season he was put in the bench after Madrid signed Nistelrooy, and they not only won the league, but RvN became the top scorer in the league.
I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
Why do so many people think assists are proof of creativity? Plenty of the most creative players around have low assist totals while some mediocre players have impressive ones. It's nonsense.
Again that's ignoring the well made point about domestic dominance. And being the focal point of an attack that scores 150 goals a season when your modern-day equivalents of Eto'o or Makaay are either playing subservient roles alongside you, stuck out wide or sat on your bench, or are playing for teams down the table that score less than half what your team does. Obviously Ronaldo and Messi are a big reason why their teams score so heavily, but it's effectively impossible for anyone not playing for the big two to somehow compete for the Pichichi when their massively-less-resourced team is 30 points off the pace and are typically scoring 40-50% fewer goals.Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (). The following season from Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Villa and Milito. All in this time, not winning the league or UCL despite that Madrid was the best team in the world before he went there. On the following season he was put in the bench after Madrid signed Nistelrooy, and they not only won the league, but RvN became the top scorer in the league.
I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
It really isn't. Most creative players make a lot of assists. Creative players who do not boast many assists and average players with a lot of assists are the exception that proves the rule. Normally, the players who are recognised as the most creative manage most assists, e.g., Messi, Silva, De Bruyne, Hazard, etc.