Top 3.
Where does Cristiano Ronaldo rank in the All time list?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
No, he has more dribbles --- and at a higher percentage (the highest of all players, actually)
On assists,
You should check this out:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
There are several people in this thread - who have seen both players play at their peaks - and would put Luiz Ronaldo above Ronaldo, because he is genuinely the most gifted footballer they've ever had the pleasure of watching.The Messi debate can stay in that other thread, but Luiz Ronaldo?
It really is laughable to even try to claim that he'd rank higher in an all time list than Cristiano Ronaldo. What has the guy won for his clubs? 1 major league title and zero Champions League?
It is not a laughable opinion, frankly there are probably many people the world over that share it... and for you to claim it that it is, is extremely arrogant of you. Ridiculous trying to throw trophies won as if that proves the poin, I could easily point to the two World Cups, but I won't, I'll simply say that at his peak, Ronaldo was a player with no rival.
I thought we were discussing the BETTER player, not the more talented, otherwise you might as well have Ronaldinho in the top 3.
Also, I just find that opinion laughable, but I don't preach on about how wrong it is, for real arrogance, look no further than the Messi v Ronaldo thread and the Messi-fans and their FACTS brigade.
You could point to the 2 world cups, one of which he did as much to win as David May in our CL win in 1999.
What I said is that Messi would have more balls lost from Dribbles not that his dribbling rate wasn't higher. Also of course Messi has more assists that wasn't my point. My point is Ronaldo is dangerous no matter where on the pitch he is. He has the 5th most assists in the last 5 years out of all the 5 top leagues. That shows a player that can hurt you with their passing and involvement as well as their goals.
To dismiss someones opinion as laughable is arrogance, it might not be Messi vs. Ronaldo thread level (I can't be arsed getting involved in that bollocks) but I digress... Luiz Ronaldo was the most gifted and at his peak, realised that potential and then some. For the years at his peak he was one of the greatest footballers to have ever graced the planet and, in mine - and many others - opinion, that puts him above Cristiano as one the greatest ever players... because, for a time, he was that great.
It's not saying Cristiano is crap, its not downplaying how good he is, it's just not putting him ahead of Ronaldo. IF you want to laugh at that opinion, fine, but that doesn't make yours anymore correct.
And, well, one World Cup... how unimpressive.
You're still going on about talent... he could have been the best ever if he didn't suffer all those injuries, but the fact is, he did, and if you look at his career, he achieved much much less than Cristiano and have never come close to Cristiano's scoring record for the past 5-6 seasons (this despite the fact that he plays as a striker only).
For a time he was great, but that time was (sadly for the football world), too short for me to think of him as being that great, otherwise Ronaldinho deserves to be right up there too.
So since you quoted that stat I saw his assist videos. He had 22 last season and that's an awesome number, but I can sincerely say about 4 showed great vision (3 were unexpected backheels, one was a flicked exchange with Benzema). There were some good crosses, and the rest were cutbacks/layoffs/passes where the scorer did the work.
For me assists are indirect, the quality involved is creativity, and while he isn't uncreative he isn't extraordinary either.
pelé played 831 official matches, scoring 767 goals.
messi has played 456 official matches so far, with 349 goals.
ronaldo has 548 official matches so far, and is at 372 goals.
messi has played 456 official matches so far, with 349 goals.
ronaldo has 548 official matches so far, and is at 372 goals.
No I'm not...
"Luiz Ronaldo was the most gifted and at his peak, realised that potential and then some. For the years at his peak he was one of the greatest footballers to have ever graced the planet"
Even despite his injuries, he still managed to be one of the best ever. Also, you act like Ronaldo was only great for 1 or 2 seasons....
But I mean, if you really want to, just start a thread called "Is Fat Ronaldo one of the greatest of all time" ... it'll be grand I'm sure..
that's from three days ago.
In my honest opinion, that's what it boils down to. He was at "world best" kind of level for 96-97 and 97-98, and never again.
Cristiano has kept it up since 06-07 till now.
Anyway, we're never going to agree on this and I take back my "laughable" comment, I'll rephrase it to "I strongly disagree".
Weird that you choose to ignore "crosses" when ronaldo is a winger. Whilst also ignore that 90% of all those assists came from great approach work from Ronaldo. For example I guess you arent counting the Marcelo assist vs Schalke because he hit a screamer in the top corner even though Ronaldo had to dribble past 2 players to cut it back for him. Or the Athletic goal which was a (easy lay off) But Ronaldo started and finished the whole move.
Yeah, he sweeps all trophies with his style. Messi could learn from him in this regard.
As pleasant for the eye he was, don't see how people can overlook this fact (and in every club he played, at the very worst case was a top 3 team in his country, with 4 out of 5 clubs he played in Europe were top 10 in Europe). Or the fact that he wa outscored from the likes of Oliver Bierhoff. Seriously, can someone imagine Ronaldo/Messi getting outscored (in the same league) from Luca Toni?!The Messi debate can stay in that other thread, but Luiz Ronaldo?
It really is laughable to even try to claim that he'd rank higher in an all time list than Cristiano Ronaldo. What has the guy won for his clubs? 1 major league title and zero Champions League?
Considering that his passing is safe, and his vision is average, how do you explain that since his move to Madrid he has the fifth highest number of assists in the top five leagues?
Against us, the first goal came from nothing. It wasn't even a good cross but he jumped more than a meter and put it on goal. In the second goal, our entire team was in our box and he still managed to put it in the goal.
If the defenders/fans aren't scared from Ronaldo, it is because they know that regardless if they get scared or not, he'll still score. So better to enjoy the match than getting scared, it won't make any difference after all.
Yeah, they all outscored Zidane too.
Did you actually watch him for Inter. He was so much more than just a striker for them.
More gifted, but not better. If he didn't get injured, it would have been another matter though, IMO.
I don't see how ridiculous is to not point his terrible trophy record. We point that always in Gerrard vs Scholes debate. And unlike Gerrard, Ronaldo was playing for the top teams in Europe. To have a single league trophy (and no UCL) despite that he played more than 10 years for PSV, Barca, Inter, Real and Milano is criminal. If he was as good as people say, then he surely would have done better considering that those teams were already champions-material. Just giving something extra from one of the top players ever, and they would have walked the league.
Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (
). The following season from Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Villa and Milito. All in this time, not winning the league or UCL despite that Madrid was the best team in the world before he went there. On the following season he was put in the bench after Madrid signed Nistelrooy, and they not only won the league, but RvN became the top scorer in the league.I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
It's down to age, most of the posters in this thread are less than 29-30 years old hence haven't an idea how amazing he was.
Ronaldo was playing alongside Taribo West, Colonnese, Moriero, Ze Elias, Cauet.. And those were all starters on the "final" against Juve who was a monster in those times
Cristiano spent his who career at the two richest clubs ever, who can spent 100m on bench players. Almost joke to compare on "club accomplishments"
What could they do with the ball? Just watch Ronaldo Luis Highlights in youtube and ask if he is the same level, ffs.
Even Neymar already has a Champions League as top scorer under his belt, and he's nowhere near Ronaldo to me.
Cristiano spent his who career at the two richest clubs ever, who can spent 100m on bench players. Almost joke to compare on "club accomplishments"
What could they do with the ball? Just watch Ronaldo Luis Highlights in youtube and ask if he is the same level, ffs.
Even Neymar already has a Champions League as top scorer under his belt, and he's nowhere near Ronaldo to me.
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C. Ronaldo has 751 matches, scoring 499 goals.
Messi has 632 matches, scoring 478 goals.
No idea about how many of Pele matches were official, and how many goals he scored there. To be fair, it doesn't matter considering that most of the 'friendly' matches were against top European clubs and he completely destroyed them.
Yeah, it's laughable.
You look up his assists and tell me. I did for his last season and thought that about 4-5 out of 22 showed genuine creativity (they unlocked a defence that looked to have all options covered), the rest were crosses and cutbacks.
IMO he is the best header of a ball I've ever seen, I appreciate what the first goal was too. As I said, Ronaldo is at his scariest when the ball is out wide, and he is lurking in the box. A half decent ball usually means a goal.
Sorry, there was nothing extraordinary about the second vs a disorganised team that had lost concentration and was facing wave after wave of attacks, where he had to tap it in.
This scenario (fear) has gone way out of hand now, but anyway. Maybe you feel scared when Ronaldo has the ball outside the box. I don't. It's that simple.
I feel really scared if Messi is in or near the box. I feel scared if Alba or Neymar are making a direct run while Messi has the ball. I feel scared if Messi's 1v1 with any defender. I feel scared if someone else has the ball and Messi has some space outside the area.
(This refers to fear because I'm hoping that Real/Barca lose, for example, last year's semis and final with Juve)
They still resulted in goals though. Which in the end is all that matters.
If it was easy to make 22 assists for players who don't have vision and above passing ability, then more players would have been doing so. But they aren't. Which probably means that Ronaldo has a terrific vision and good passing ability. Not as good as Messi though (not many players have had it) but that isn't the point. Since his transfer to Madrid, he has been the second highest goalscorer in Europe, and fifth highest assist-maker. That is for a period of six years. Conclusion: not only he is one of the best goalscorers of all time, but he has also been one of the main creative forces in Europe for these years.
the same place he ranks in the Ronaldo vs messi debate.
for me, those two are the best ever.
for me, those two are the best ever.
Only a blind fool would argue that Neymar's performances in UCL last season weren't better than L.Ronaldo's performances in UCL ever in his career. Not that only Neymar scored in the final, but he also scored in both matches in the semis and in both matches in the quarters.
On the other side, L.Ronaldo not only didn't ever won UCL, but his highest total of goals in a season was a moderate 6 (half of them in a match against us).
Neymar could retire today and he would still have had more impact in the highest tournament of club level than L.Ronaldo.
Thats the reason I posted it.
Its suprising just how easily he kept losing the ball, or miskicking it.
Spot on.Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (
I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
Then why have this debate at all? Compile goal or goal+assist stats for all players, rank them, and that's that.
For me Ronaldo's goalscoring consistency and variety is enough to put him in the top 10 ever. If I wanted to be controversial I would say that Laudrup's equally freakish vision should put him in the top 10 too? Btw check out a 10+ minute Laudrup passing video to see why assist numbers =/ vision.
Exactly why i find these comparison/ranking threads so tedious. Football as a sport doesn't really lend itself well to comparisons. You have different countries, leagues, teams, eras, teammates, managers etc. which all play a huge role in a players stats and ability to showcase themselves. Would you rather a prime Giggs or Roy Keane, Henry or Viera, Del Piero or Totti? There is no right answer, it's all just a matter of taste. I would think the lack of credit given to goalkeepers and defenders on these lists is a huge giveaway that they're not really the full picture. Having said that, I did vote Ronaldo top 10 ever. I think a case could be made for top 20 or top 3
Same here. His not having that extra creativity that some other players had means that I won't put him on top 3. Anyway the number of assists is an argument in itself that he is quite creative. Why not compile the assists stats? I think that they tell that he is quite creative, but in order to compare him with some of the most creative players ever, you need more than that. Which is why no-one mentions Ronaldo in the list of most creative players ever. But, he isn't the Chicharito-Inzaghi love child which seems to be from this forum (I actually made a satiric comparison of him with Hernandez and to my surprise it wasn't accepted well).
Laudrup in top 20? He has definitely one of the best vision I have seen in football, but not sure that is enough. I know that some people say that he was better than Zidane, and while there is an argument, I don't agree. To be fair, it can be said that Riquelme had an as good vision as him, but he isn't even a top 100 player (although that might be cause he was totally inconsistent bar a season for Villareal and a few tournaments for Argentina).
I quite like Laudrup because I regularly watched Cruyff's dream team but...he's become a bit of a myth. He was world class, no doubt about that, but he was overshadowed by Stoichkov and Romario and had to leave Barca in order to start more games. Stoichkov was the catalyst of Barca's hegemony at the time, not Laudrup. The former was the big game player and almost always above Laudrup in the Ballon d'Or rankings.
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This. There's basically no one else in the history of game who could manage to score over 50 goals in 5 consecutive seasons at highest level, and especially in modern era where more emphasis are on physical and defensive sides which means it is much harder to score too.
Ronaldo is not only the best ever goalscoring machine, he is indeed a goalscoring freak, a superhuman.
In perspectives I'd say 70% of his career (United years and first few seasons at Madrid) he played more like Best and Cruyff, but keep developed his game into better and better goalscoring freak rather than dribbling wizard as he was in the past, and only about 30% of his career at later years he turn more into pure goalscoring and record breaking freak we saw today.
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Why do so many people think assists are proof of creativity? Plenty of the most creative players around have low assist totals while some mediocre players have impressive ones. It's nonsense.
I think you didn't read what I wrote at all.Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (
I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
Bergkamp was a striker but no one would be silly enough to bring up Darren Bent's superior scoring record when assessing his contribution.
Ronaldo at Inter was far more than just a goalscorer.
It really isn't. Most creative players make a lot of assists. Creative players who do not boast many assists and average players with a lot of assists are the exception that proves the rule. Normally, the players who are recognised as the most creative manage most assists, e.g., Messi, Silva, De Bruyne, Hazard, etc.
Again that's ignoring the well made point about domestic dominance. And being the focal point of an attack that scores 150 goals a season when your modern-day equivalents of Eto'o or Makaay are either playing subservient roles alongside you, stuck out wide or sat on your bench, or are playing for teams down the table that score less than half what your team does. Obviously Ronaldo and Messi are a big reason why their teams score so heavily, but it's effectively impossible for anyone not playing for the big two to somehow compete for the Pichichi when their massively-less-resourced team is 30 points off the pace and are typically scoring 40-50% fewer goals.Zidane wasn't a striker though.
I just fail to see how anyone can dismiss that he was outscored by Bierhoff in his first season at Inter (and that was before his injuries). Then he got outscored from 10 strikers the following season. Then after his injuries (which took the best part of three seasons) he was outscored at Madrid from Roy Maakay of La Coruna. Two seasons later from Eto'o, Forlan and Ricardo Oliveira (
I love Ronaldo, one of my first footballing heroes (together with Batistuta), but those things weren't a coincidence. A top 10 player wouldn't allow those things to happen. It isn't a coincidence that Messi and Ronaldo might get outscored only from each other for 6 years now. Or that they already have far more club trophies than Ronaldo.
I think that if Ronaldo didn't got injured, he would have been comfortably in top 10, and in discussion for the best ever with Messi, Pele and Maradona (slightly ahead of C.Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer). But that is an if, which didn't happen. Considering only his career and without 'what could have been', C.Ronaldo is far ahead of him.
Two points I'd make about Ronaldo. The first is that not only did he score heavily (broadly a goal a game in the first half of his career), his ability in one-on-one situations was devastating. He married the trickery of Ronaldinho, with the deft touch of Messi and the explosive acceleration of Eusebio, into an undefendable mix. The second point is how you value peak and longevity. His 1996-1999 peak was sensational, but obviously other strikers like Puskas, Eusebio, Muller and Cristiano spent far longer timespans at the top of their game. But none of them had that frightening combination of talents set out above.
Players who get into attacking positions make more assists. Or they bloat them out - how can a rebounded shot or standard corner be included alongside incisive passes?