Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread

Parma Dewol

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I'm going out on a limb, and this isn't a knee-jerk reaction to beating Liverpool yet again, but I can't be the only one who isn't entirely disillusioned with what Louis Van Gaal is doing at United.

In this sport there is no guarantee of ongoing success, and after a calamitous season under David Moyes, getting back on track was always going to be a difficult process. Time and patience was required, and with the Premier League being so competitive, there was never going to be a simple fix, irrespective of amounts spent on transfers.

The first season was all about steadying the ship, and we did that well. Made the top four and at times looked like we might challenge for higher. Our cup runs were cut short in disappointing fashion, but we reached our objective and there seemed to be plenty of good work being done behind the scenes. Examples include upgraded training facilities, a much-needed clear-out of dead wood (something practically everyone had been gagging for) and some promising signings.

Building on that, the second season started well and the discovery of Martial was a massive boost. People so often remember only recent performances, and I admit our form over the past month or two has been dismal, but in the grand scheme of things it was only a short downturn. In September we managed 15 goals in six games, we've had some excellent performances (3-1 vs. Liverpool, 3-0 vs. Everton) and up until December 8th we'd only lost two games all season - one of those being in the League Cup, on penalties. We were back on top of the league, albeit briefly.

After losing to Wolfsburg in early December things went to pot. We lost four on the bounce and it was an awful spell, but no team is immune to a bad patch. Van Gaal isn't the first manager to have a poor run and he won't be the last, but he has seemingly steadied the ship once again, and we are unlucky not to have won all four games since the turn of the New Year.

There have been questionable decisions, no doubt about that. I wish Chicarito hadn't been sold, the Januzaj loan made no sense to me, I'm still not sure about Fellaini, and I would love to see more animation on the touchline. But it's never going to be perfect, that's football, and no amount of money spent is going to turn us back into an irresistible force overnight.

Van Gaal is a world-class manager with plenty of experience and there should be no urgency to get rid of him without genuine cause. If we end the season outside of the top four, or top four becomes out of reach, then sure the question should be asked, but until that point I think it would be a mistake to keep changing managers. I've spoken to a few Chelsea fans recently who all think it was a mistake to sack Mourinho - they don't see the sense in getting rid of a known winner.

One of the difficulties now is the anti-Van Gaal mentality, and that's something that's going to be very hard to change. I'm a season ticket holder and at home games I've rarely seen the animosity I see now - if we haven't scored after half an hour, the crowd quickly begins to berate the team, and I always feel as though the derision comes too early.

Even yesterday's result against Liverpool is being deemed a smash and grab. It's almost as though it's Van Gaal's fault we didn't win it the United way - whatever that means. It might not have been pretty, but that was exactly the kind of gritty performance we should be looking for away at Anfield.

It's also worth pointing out that our defensive injuries have been a nightmare. Should he have reinforced in this department during the transfer windows? Perhaps, but we have started a lot of games with only one recognised defender, yet our defensive record is one of the best in the league.

If anything, my one major criticism of Van Gaal is that he has tried to do too much too soon. Perhaps realising that he has only the three years to make it work, he has made a lot of changes in the blink of an eye, and as has been pointed out by other forum members, no team has ever won the league after such wholesale changes to the squad.

Yet despite the tough run of results in December, the manager has for the most part kept his composure against some of the toughest fans and media in sport. Granted, he walked out of a press conference once, but on the whole he has shown a touch of class in staying true to his convictions.

Many fans obviously won't agree - the 300+ page LVG Out thread is testament to that - but there must also be plenty of realists out there. So for all those of us who think Louis Van Gaal isn't Lucifer incarnate, how do you see us progressing from here? 7 points off the top, can we go on a run and mount a challenge this season? And if the manager is to see out his contract, what do you think of the squad being formed for his successor?
 

amolbhatia50k

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I'd love to see it tried with a much better set of attackers, but it shouldn't take great attackers to have a high degree of fluidity in attack.

He should have just signed 4 attackers this last summer and proven what his philosophy can do at OT.
 

Santiago_KinderBueno

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@Parma Dewol

A response to-
"I would love to see more animation on the touchline"

Van gaal spends alot of time writing things on his notepad. Now he is not writing lyrics is he? He knows we are playing rubbish & he is consistently looking at ways and at our weaknesses. I think at this particular level with a young squad that in my eyes will only get younger with new worked out additions - it can only be a good thing for them to be consistently evaluated.

We all miss a manager like SAF standing & giving instructions - a 12th man on the field but in doing so we are papering over cracks & changing things that the players should be doing naturally & without help.

Yesterday Klopp said something very similar about Liverpool - how he does not want to talk about their inability to hold up on set plays every post match interview. I think about that & every time i see van gaal writing something down or looking at giggs and telling him "i told you so" or smashing his own head in anger.. I see something that can only benefit us for along time..

It is a very different approach, an approach that alot of managers neglect. We can always find that 12th man - when we genuinely feel that van gaal cannot take us further. However, we are far far away from this being a team mourinho can park the bus with & win games. We are far away from a team that can adapr tiki-taka football with Guardiola.

We can find a manager who can finish a job off like van gaal seriously struggles to do - but we will not ever have a manager doing groundwork on a bunch of kid's like he was there headteacher ever.

That is why i am so 'religiously faithful to him. Of course i hoped for better results but i also expected this type meltdown to happen not just from our players but more importantly our fans. If we really start waving flags and posters about how we want van gaal out because of a bunch of teenagers not winning a title with ease then we will be left with half a notepad of ways of making them better.

I do believe that he influenced barcelona & bayern, just like other posters, players & commentators do - so ultimately in a very back handed way - i believe a little bit of patience (which those clubs lacked) could potentially make us a better team in the future than the both of them.

I'm not saying he should stay the full 3 years, but not getting him rid mid December either.
 

Fully Fledged

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I don't like the way we play and think it will cause problems against teams who park the bus. That said if he can continue this run I'd be more happy about him being here until the end of the season.
After that we need somebody in who is going to be here for more than another season.
 

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I'm not entirely disillusioned with him but he makes some unbelievably illogical and frustrating decisions during games. I can see why he rubs people up the wrong way occasionally but some people will complain about everything and when it gets to that stage it's probably all over.

Reading these boards I'm definitely not as angry as majority of people. Saying that, the positives have started to dwindle recently. Even our better performing players are having a bit of a wobble and I dread to think what would happen if Martial missed any games. I honestly don't think I'd be bothered about watching if that happened
 

Stack

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Many fans obviously won't agree - the 300+ page LVG Out thread is testament to that - but there must also be plenty of realists out there. So for all those of us who think Louis Van Gaal isn't Lucifer incarnate, how do you see us progressing from here? 7 points off the top, can we go on a run and mount a challenge this season? And if the manager is to see out his contract, what do you think of the squad being formed for his successor?
Maybe the realists are those wanting him gone?
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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The only way to look realistically at this is 18 whole months into LvG's reign at OT, this is the best this particular set of players can do with these tactics, a high defensive line, patient build up play and being creative in tight areas in the final third. Some players get it, some others don't and some are good at it while others simply can't perform well under these instructions. But the overall outcome can be described as "not good enough" for a club like Manchester United.

What i'd like to ask is what is in question here? If LvG is a top manager? Of course he is, whoever denies that is biased with possession football in general. The thing is that if we're going to wait for Rooney and Mata to suddenly become world beaters and start working miracles with the ball at their feet while being constantly closed down, we're going to be waiting for a very long time. That's two senior players that's extremely difficult for the club to just ship off. So, what are the manager's plans for them?

It's also quite evident that we need some other players too, a CB, another FB (besides Shaw) with the ability to provide width and offer end product, one more midfielder, a winger who can beat his man and probably the "10" LvG desires. And since we're full of young and talented players a couple of these signings must be players who'll come here and make the difference asap. Does the club or LvG know where to find these players instead of just trying to sign the likes of Ramos, Bale, Muller or Pogba, players who are less likely to come here especially if there's no CL football on the horizon.

And finally, what is the plan for after LvG? We're going through all of this just to give the job to Giggs or to the next available big name? Because if we, let's say, decide to appoint someone like Mourinho or Simeone, all the players have been learning till now will go down the drain. And from what i read in the press, the perfect candidate to succeed LvG is probably going to City next summer.
 
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Adisa

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I have said many times I want to see this team with quicker more skillful attackers. I watch Bayern Munich every single weekend and the approach play is not much different.
Even if we don't continue with LVG, whoever takes over has to play possession football IMO.
A top team that can play possession and football and play it well will always excell in the leagu and go far in Europe IMO.
My criticism of Van Gaal still stands though. Even teams that play possession football have periods in games when they move the ball very quickly in the last third of the pitch. It's in these periods their opponents usually crumble. After 18months we simply can't muster a sustained period of quick attacking combinations for any period of time. Although LVG must carry the can for it, I'm not sure what degree of blame to attach to him. In so many matches our players get into good positions but ruin it by making stupid mistakes either because they're not good enough or they aren't concentrating.
 
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PeteManic

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Look lads it's quite clear.

As long as United finish top 4 this season, he will complete his 3 year contract. And then Giggs will take over.

This was the plan and it still will be the plan.
 

prath92

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I am someone who prefers a boring win over an exciting and entertaining loss. Last month was particularly difficult and at times it looked as if Players lost confidence. Credit should goto him for getting them confident and getting Rooney back to form. Mourinho didnt do this at Chelsea so it is obviously a very hard thing to do really
 

Smores

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It may have been a "short downturn" in results (are we apparently out that?) but the issues have been present for a long time. It's no suprise to see these threads pop up as those who didn't want to recognise issues previously will be happy to ignore them once our results once again mask our deficiencies.

If they continue to mask our deficiencies great but LVG still needs to go in the summer.
 

Blodssvik

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So because we won in the end it was a gritty performance? I thought there was no grit up until the goal. We just looked apathetic and somehow got lucky.
 
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Rood

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Many fans obviously won't agree - the 300+ page LVG Out thread is testament to that - but there must also be plenty of realists out there. So for all those of us who think Louis Van Gaal isn't Lucifer incarnate, how do you see us progressing from here? 7 points off the top, can we go on a run and mount a challenge this season? And if the manager is to see out his contract, what do you think of the squad being formed for his successor?
Im happy for LvG to be given until the end of the season and then see where we are at - I defended him a lot earlier in the year but it was difficult to see where we were going when we had the run of 4 defeats, he has done well to steer us past that and back on the right track.

Id expect to see a title challenge or decent cup run for him to stay on another season though, if we can bring in another attacking option this window then I think that is acheivable.

Either way I think the squad is shaping up well, of course it can be improved but there is a good base for his successor to build on.
 

Di Maria's angel

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The Liverpool game only serves to highlight we're going nowhere under van Gaal. We were pretty shit all game and stole a late win. If that's his ultimate philosophy, then I might have a bit of faith in that.
 

Pexbo

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I still believe that if we sign a couple of top class attackers, this team can absolutely dominate this league.


I think that following our purge of all the dead wood over the last couple of seasons, a decision has been made to stop investing in "squad players" and sign only players that immediately challenge for the first team (or youngsters with potential). With this in mind, I think we failed to identify and sign attackers who fit that mold and Louis decided to go into the season with Rooney, Mata, Martial, Memphis, Lingard and Fellaini as our attack.

With the board knowing full well how difficult it was to sign the attackers we wanted, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Louis the green light themselves to call this another transition season (as in, don't expect him to win the league) where Martial, Memphis, Lingard, Shaw, McNair, Periera and Januzaj (before he asked to leave) could all be developed further with a view to them being the core of this squad in a season or twos time.


You can moan all you like about "the philosophy" but it all comes down to the quality of our attackers over anything else.

Sterling - Aguero - De Bruyne

Ronaldo - Benzema - Bale

Robben - Lewandowski - Muller

Neymar - Suarez - Messi



Pick any two of those players and put it straight into our XI and we walk the league. Teams would be absolutely terrified to throw players forward in attack like they do now because, quite simply, our front line would destroy any space they leave if it's turned over.



Hopefully though, this is a repeat of 04-06 where people comment on Rooney and Ronaldo not being productive enough and in two years time, the seeds start to bare fruit and Martial, Memphis and co are putting up the numbers we know they are capable of.



Rome wasn't built in a day.
 

Reapersoul20

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I've been defending him on here to the knee-jerk brigade for months.

Can't wait for us to win the League and rub it in everyone's face :D
 

Drifter

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So you never had any faith in Van Gaal right from the start?

Never even gave him a chance?
I was neutral towards him. He was like a blank slate. But i've always had reservations whether his style of football would work in the PL. And so far i've yet to see any sign of this Philosophy working.
 

Fener1907

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Me. I'm behind him.

We've had a very shit run of results. It invariably happens when one of the greatest managers of all time isn't your manager anymore. It's called form. Ours will get better.
 

Beachryan

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On paper I'm supportive of him. Out of principle, too. But then it's an hour before kick off, and I have no buzz anymore. Then it's 30 minutes in, and I'm looking for something else to do with my time while the match is on in the background - something I'd never dreamed of doing before.

In the end I support United, but the football that LVG produces is not making me want to actually watch us. You can argue it's a results business, but as he's not delivering those either, what is job success? He has us playing the worst football in the premier league. Manchester United. And we're not in the Top 4, and in most seasons we'd already be on the verge of missing out.

So if he's not getting results and the football isn't worth watching...why keep him?
 

stevoc

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I was neutral towards him. He was like a blank slate. But i've always had reservations whether his style of football would work in the PL. And so far i've yet to see any sign of this Philosophy working.
He came in and sorted out the mess Moyes left him, had us playing football while not enthralling that at least meant we didn't get bent over by any half decent team we played. Had that great run of form at the end of last season and got us back into the CL, which is something Moyes could never have done in my opinion.

So there has definitely been signs and he has improved us very much. He might have taken us as far as he can but he was brought into steady the ship and bar an awful 5-6 weeks before Xmas he has done just that.

Lets not forget just how bad we were before he came here. Only two scrappy wins vs top 10 sides in a whole season under Moyes. Think about that one.
 

Bilbo

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I can think of one real positive. Our kids are getting a few minutes here and there.

The rest of it is really difficult to support. It all comes down to what we see on the pitch, and right now our football is god awful.
 

Chesterlestreet

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As mentioned half a million times before (these LVG threads really are a broken record extravaganza) the "better attackers" point ultimately doesn't work as an explanation for what looks like our default brand of football.

If you can't play better than we do without an MSN style frontline, something's wrong with your approach: It's not flexible or pragmatic enough. That can't be debated in my opinion.

We're looking much better results wise and if we keep winning, he's off the hook - which is fair enough, I suppose. But nothing we've produced recently indicates any radical improvement - it's rub of the green more than anything for my money.

So, he manages to scrape together enough points for a top four finish - and then we go out and buy those top class attackers we apparently need in order to look like a semblance of a top team. Fair enough? Yeah, I'd say so. But it's hardly the work of a magician.
 

Cina

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I still believe that if we sign a couple of top class attackers, this team can absolutely dominate this league.


I think that following our purge of all the dead wood over the last couple of seasons, a decision has been made to stop investing in "squad players" and sign only players that immediately challenge for the first team (or youngsters with potential). With this in mind, I think we failed to identify and sign attackers who fit that mold and Louis decided to go into the season with Rooney, Mata, Martial, Memphis, Lingard and Fellaini as our attack.

With the board knowing full well how difficult it was to sign the attackers we wanted, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Louis the green light themselves to call this another transition season (as in, don't expect him to win the league) where Martial, Memphis, Lingard, Shaw, McNair, Periera and Januzaj (before he asked to leave) could all be developed further with a view to them being the core of this squad in a season or twos time.


You can moan all you like about "the philosophy" but it all comes down to the quality of our attackers over anything else.

Sterling - Aguero - De Bruyne

Ronaldo - Benzema - Bale

Robben - Lewandowski - Muller

Neymar - Suarez - Messi



Pick any two of those players and put it straight into our XI and we walk the league. Teams would be absolutely terrified to throw players forward in attack like they do now because, quite simply, our front line would destroy any space they leave if it's turned over.



Hopefully though, this is a repeat of 04-06 where people comment on Rooney and Ronaldo not being productive enough and in two years time, the seeds start to bare fruit and Martial, Memphis and co are putting up the numbers we know they are capable of.



Rome wasn't built in a day.
City are the only team in the PL with a world-class attacker (Aguero). You're talking as if we should just go out there and grab two of 'em when the reality is that there are very few attainable right now. It's not a valid excuse for LvG or our team in any way. We may not have an Aguero but we've a lot of good players at our disposal still.

Personally I find the idea that you can just 'add two top attackers' to the team and go dominate the league ridiculous. Mainly cause it'd be insanely difficult to find them, and also because you could throw 2 top attackers into 5 or 6 teams in the league and they'd dominate too! It's not a valid excuse at all for the failings of LvG. He had his money, he spent it like he wanted to spend it, and he's doing shit.
 

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Isn't it a coincidence that since he's relaxed his stance slightly on his 'total domination/ possession control' policy, we've seen an improvement in the performance levels?

If I remember correctly we've had our lowest possession count against Newcastle and Liverpool, and it resulted in more positive outcomes.

So yeah, I'm still calling bullshit on the LVG philosophy.
 

Oo0AahCantona

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I still believe that if we sign a couple of top class attackers, this team can absolutely dominate this league.


I think that following our purge of all the dead wood over the last couple of seasons, a decision has been made to stop investing in "squad players" and sign only players that immediately challenge for the first team (or youngsters with potential). With this in mind, I think we failed to identify and sign attackers who fit that mold and Louis decided to go into the season with Rooney, Mata, Martial, Memphis, Lingard and Fellaini as our attack.

With the board knowing full well how difficult it was to sign the attackers we wanted, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave Louis the green light themselves to call this another transition season (as in, don't expect him to win the league) where Martial, Memphis, Lingard, Shaw, McNair, Periera and Januzaj (before he asked to leave) could all be developed further with a view to them being the core of this squad in a season or twos time.


You can moan all you like about "the philosophy" but it all comes down to the quality of our attackers over anything else.

Sterling - Aguero - De Bruyne

Ronaldo - Benzema - Bale

Robben - Lewandowski - Muller

Neymar - Suarez - Messi



Pick any two of those players and put it straight into our XI and we walk the league. Teams would be absolutely terrified to throw players forward in attack like they do now because, quite simply, our front line would destroy any space they leave if it's turned over.



Hopefully though, this is a repeat of 04-06 where people comment on Rooney and Ronaldo not being productive enough and in two years time, the seeds start to bare fruit and Martial, Memphis and co are putting up the numbers we know they are capable of.



Rome wasn't built in a day.
Totally agree, good post. Right now we are severely limited by personnel, but the system is in place. My gripes with Van gaal are deeper than the way we play RIGHT NOW.
 

SalfordRed1960

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Always had the faith, but I can understand people not being happy with the performances on the whole, that doesn't excuse the BS comments when we have a good performance or the constant abuse at or before pre-match PCs and on match days.

I am a big advocate of quick passing possession football with players that move to disrupt the opposition. Knowing what LVG is trying to do, helps keep the faith. I am not saying that is what we are doing, but that is the intent. The intent is only going to be realized if players play with confidence. It should not be lost on people that we have had a major transformation in terms of players and it does take time. LVG may have had 18 months, but half the players haven't. When we pass quickly and have movement we do look quite good, but still need 2 or 3 players in my mind. LVG has built quite a good squad, this just needs to start delivering on the promise. There does seem to be a nice balance between youth, young and experienced players.

The first 11, which has rarely played together is not too bad. We have had to play players out of position, as do other managers, and Fergie also did it, because of injuries or a feeling that the game may be too much for the youth players. Could LVG have kept more of the players he let go sure, but why, most would have been bit part players and we would unlikely have seen the likes of Martial, CBJ, and Lingard play so much. Overall, the squad is not top quality, but with another summer transfer window I expect us to be in a very good position.

Going forward I expect us to have a title challenge, not because we are a fantastic team, but because the league this season is showing that every team seems to be able to up their game and take points off other teams. City losing to Stoke and Liverpool, drawing with Everton and Villa, Arsenal drawing to Norwich and losing to WBA and Chelsea, Spurs losing to Newcastle and drawing with WBA. It goes on with Leicester drawing with Villa. I think this pattern will continue all season.
 

golden_blunder

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So because we won in the end it was a gritty performance? I thought there was no grit up until the goal. We just looked apathetic and somehow got lucky.
yet again DDG saved the day. Hardly tactical genius.

some people can delude themselves with 1 result against the scousers, and LVG will probably dine out on it for the next season and a half but those who look deeper will know that we got lucky. If the scouse had a decent forward they would have hammered us. Nice result in terms of banter points for that's it.

the real sign that he can turn it around will be when his results turn from relegation form to league winning form, and his tactics aren't setup so that only world class talents like Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo/Robben etc benefit the team. These kind of tactics are a fallacy if they rely on having such players.

He also needs to become more flexible and have a plan B! this is one area where he has clearly struggled this season
 

kps88

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What's the philosophy? I don't think I know anymore. We've done it all this season - possession football, long ball football, defense first, attack first. He's trying every approach under the sun with the hope that one sticks.
 

Enigma_87

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Paper over cracks.

DDG was excellent and we had 1 shot on target that resulted in a goal. Different day it could've been 3-0 loss.

I think LvG is not getting enough of those set of players. We have the quality, we have players that can play much better and another manager can get this team play a lot better.

It's not only the results which were shocking 2 weeks ago, but also the way we play and how we play worse with every single game. Against Newcastle we were positive in attack for some parts and at the same time shambolic at the back. It's like neither or..
 

NK86

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Isn't it a coincidence that since he's relaxed his stance slightly on his 'total domination/ possession control' policy, we've seen an improvement in the performance levels?

If I remember correctly we've had our lowest possession count against Newcastle and Liverpool, and it resulted in more positive outcomes.

So yeah, I'm still calling bullshit on the LVG philosophy.
No. Zero improvements in performance levels. More lucky with results though. Not sure you can attribute that to him loosening up a bit.