Who would you bring as a DoF or in the MUFC back office ?

[finneh]

I think you're not so much shifting power from one place to another but making it more collegial and to me the question is what's the best balance there. 2-4 people having the final say in recruits identification (though management need to sign off on the financial side of things) is probably where I'd estimate it.
Then again you do need those people to be competent and that's maybe our issue...

We don't really know how it works in the MUFC kitchen but I think the club might have benefited if someone could have said "here is a list of 3 players that are good alternatives to Antony's profile and we should be able to pursue them for 50m€. We'll try to get your man but just in case..."

I'd imagine the problem occurs when you have a poor season with new signings performing poorly (the latter often being the case in tandem with the former).

A prime example was towards the end of Ole's tenure. Were the squad poor or was Ole simply not getting the best out of a good squad? We know after Rangnick's tenure and the surgery we've needed over the last 2 Summers that the squad was poor; however Ole was rightly sacked after green-lighting the signings of Maguire, DVB, Ronaldo, Sancho, Telles, AWB.

In our current system we have clear accountability; whereas under the system you mention our awful state would be unknown as to whether the DoF, HoR or the manager were at fault. How could we sack Ole when the Head of Recruitment and/or Director of Football spent £235m on Maguire, Sancho, DVB and AWB? But likewise how would we know that those four wouldn't be world beaters under a better manager/different system?

 

[MadDogg]

So, going by the breakdown in your enormous post, the DoF

• Decides what types of footballers we intend to target and sign, which leads to him....
• Hiring the Head of recruitment

In addition to that, he also

• Decides how we are going to play football, which leads to him
• Hiring the managers

Both those positions report into him, yet you wrote all of that to tell me that my post claiming that we are shifting power from one place to another was not really the same thing.

All due respect, but this only highlights further how few people really understand what they are asking for with a DoF.

It's not so much about 'shifting power' from one person to another, more about delegating it to people who specialise in those roles.

The manager is obviously in charge of the playing squad and coaching, while the Head of Recruitment would be in charge of the scouting side. They ultimately have to answer to someone and that is where the DoF controls things, but he isn't as involved in the minutiae details and day-to-day running of those departments (in fact he'd have almost nothing to do with the individual players and scouts). It's just a matter of delegation to the correct people, and ever since Ferguson has retired it seems we have allowed the manager to have too much say in the recruitment without trusting our scouting network. You only have to look at the players we've targeted since ETH took over. Combine that with all our managers having had very different playstyles and requirements for their players, and it's hardly a surprise the squad is somewhat of a mess and we basically try to rebuild it entirely every few years.

When Arnold and Murtough took over we heard a decent amount of good PR come out which indicated we might be heading that way, but so far we haven't really seen the results. It is still somewhat early days though so I'm still holding out hope it will improve.

Also, four decent paragraphs and a few one liners is larger than the average post but I'd hardly say it's 'enormous'. And only the first part was really in response to you in particular, the rest was just my reply to the thread in general.

 

[Bilbo]

It's not so much about 'shifting power' from one person to another, more about delegating it to people who specialise in those roles.

The manager is obviously in charge of the playing squad and coaching, while the Head of Recruitment would be in charge of the scouting side. They ultimately have to answer to someone and that is where the DoF controls things, but he isn't as involved in the minutiae details and day-to-day running of those departments (in fact he'd have almost nothing to do with the individual players and scouts). It's just a matter of delegation to the correct people, and ever since Ferguson has retired it seems we have allowed the manager to have too much say in the recruitment without trusting our scouting network. You only have to look at the players we've targeted since ETH took over. Combine that with all our managers having had very different playstyles and requirements for their players, and it's hardly a surprise the squad is somewhat of a mess and we basically try to rebuild it entirely every few years.

When Arnold and Murtough took over we heard a decent amount of good PR come out which indicated we might be heading that way, but so far we haven't really seen the results. It is still somewhat early days though so I'm still holding out hope it will improve.

Also, four decent paragraphs and a few one liners is larger than the average post but I'd hardly say it's 'enormous'. And only the first part was really in response to you in particular, the rest was just my reply to the thread in general.

Yeah apologies. The enormous comment was unnecessary. I actually like a long post. Blame it on Monday morning grouchiness.

I'm certainly an outlier amongst most fans in that I do still believe that the manager should be the dominant figure in terms of who we recruit. He should of course be backed up by a strong analytics team, and a network of scouts, but given that the manager is closest to the squad he would understand better than anyone what is lacking in the squad.

Not only that, but we actually hire them for their expertise in building a successful football team. DoFs have something in common - that being that they are rarely if ever successful football managers, so why are we trusting them to pick a squad over the person we've hired because they are (hopefully) world class at doing just that?

Ultimately a manager needs to be surrounded by expertise in all areas. Coaching, analytics, scouting. It's essential at our level. He shouldn't ever be involved in the financials, and a good club should veto a new player if those aspects don't make sense.

As far as I can tell though that network is already in place at United.

 

[jeepers]

Rangnick gave a fair report and most of us here laughed him out.

A good DOF wont last the scrutiny doing the right thing. Can you imagine if Rangnick veto the signing of Antony? And god forbid he has 1 good season in Holland?

Fergie would he hounded out in year 3 and sacked long before he won the league.

Can you see ETH selling Ince or probably Bruno / Rashford as the modern equivalent?

That’s why I said only after the Glazers feck off, because I really hope the new owner(s) shake things up and make wholesale changes because it is needed.

Rangnick was spot on with some of his critiques and analysis, and whilst he was a crap manager for us, I’m glad he said what he felt needed to be said and I wished he had spoken out more about issues behind the scenes. I believe Rangnick would have vetoed the signing of Antony simply because of the ridiculous amount we paid for him. BUT because of Rangnick’s experience, contacts and knowledge, he wouldn’t veto it without presenting maybe 3-5 appropriate alternatives.

I’ve no idea about Paul Ince because I was like 5 when he left, but what I’ve read is he behaved as if he was bigger than the team, being arrogant and all. If that’s true, then he had to go. I believe EtH is quite pragmatic, so I feel he will have no issues selling Bruno and/or Rashford once he believes he no longer has any need for either of them - be it because of attitude or other issues. For now he cannot afford to sell them because the squad is simply not strong enough to allow him to do that, and I don’t think they have given him any reason to sell them. What he has shown is his disdain for prima donnas and for all Bruno’s / Rashford’s faults that the caf likes to bring up, they aren’t prima donnas. Well or at least they do a damn good job of hiding it.

 

[Tango80]

We've already got a DoF *shrugs*

And writing him off after he's only really been given free reign for just over a year is a bit dumb.

 

[Paul778]

People who cite the structure at Brighton seem to be missing something. It isn't just the personel at Brighton - it's the size and position of the club.

Imagine a up and coming attacking midfielder. He speaks to Brighton and they say "we're completely committed to giving you 30+ games a season over the next two seasons". When the guy asks about their current no10, Brighton say "Oh. We bought him 18 months ago - we're going to sell him for a 3x profit next summer".

This is a great structure to have for Brighton in terms of making money. It's less good if you want to complete to win across multiple competitions, where you want to hold on to your quality players and gel them into a team that consistently gives 8/10+ performances across the board every week.

 

[Bilbo]

People who cite the structure at Brighton seem to be missing something. It isn't just the personel at Brighton - it's the size and position of the club.

Imagine a up and coming attacking midfielder. He speaks to Brighton and they say "we're completely committed to giving you 30+ games a season over the next two seasons". When the guy asks about their current no10, Brighton say "Oh. We bought him 18 months ago - we're going to sell him for a 3x profit next summer".

This is a great structure to have for Brighton in terms of making money. It's less good if you want to complete to win across multiple competitions, where you want to hold on to your quality players and gel them into a team that consistently gives 8/10+ performances across the board every week.

Yep. Comparisons with Brighton are getting tiresome.

 

[M Bison]

I’m sure it’s publicly available and vaguely remember seeing it posted in the last, but what does our org structure look like? And how does it compare vs other clubs?

 

[croadyman]

Who is the best DOF we could appoint IF the sale does actually materialise at some point

 

[Greck]

I’m sure it’s publicly available and vaguely remember seeing it posted in the last, but what does our org structure look like? And how does it compare vs other clubs?

Probably similar to the last but with Murtough starring as woodward and Fletcher starring as Murtough. Maybe even a little worse. Can't recall Woody making and scrapping this many shite decisions within days. It's almost makes them the biggest kneejerkers at the club.

 

[Okey]

Well, we had Rangnick in the building. Just the man we needed if we were planning to reinvent ourselves. First we bizarrely made him manager instead of DoF which is what he excelled at. Still had a chance to put it right at the end of that season. But of course we weren't ready to do what it takes and overhaul the whole team. The parasites will always come up with excuses for their lack of competence. So look where we still are...

 

[Pscholes18]

Think Rag would of been a great DoF. Really wonder who kicked him out? Was it ETH?

 

[Redivy]

Who is the best DOF we could appoint IF the sale does actually materialise at some point

Paul Mitchell is the best one for our club, not only does he have experience in the premier league with Tottenham but also in the lower English leagues and had spells in France and Germany. It makes him the perfect candidate. He also seems to have good temperament and won't be as controversial as some DoFs'.

Andrea Berta at Atletico is another one I think could make the leap to English football. He was linked to Chelsea when Boehly first took over. He has done a good job at Madrid and seems to have a good understanding of Spanish and Italian markets.

 

[croadyman]

Well, we had Rangnick in the building. Just the man we needed if we were planning to reinvent ourselves. First we bizarrely made him manager instead of DoF which is what he excelled at. Still had a chance to put it right at the end of that season. But of course we weren't ready to do what it takes and overhaul the whole team. The parasites will always come up with excuses for their lack of competence. So look where we still are...

Yeah I was gutted he didn't stay on in that role,however get the impression Erik never wanted to work with him unfortunately

 

[garelo]

People who cite the structure at Brighton seem to be missing something. It isn't just the personel at Brighton - it's the size and position of the club.

Imagine a up and coming attacking midfielder. He speaks to Brighton and they say "we're completely committed to giving you 30+ games a season over the next two seasons". When the guy asks about their current no10, Brighton say "Oh. We bought him 18 months ago - we're going to sell him for a 3x profit next summer".

This is a great structure to have for Brighton in terms of making money. It's less good if you want to complete to win across multiple competitions, where you want to hold on to your quality players and gel them into a team that consistently gives 8/10+ performances across the board every week.

We used to be a club where young talents learn their trades while winning trophies. What did sir matt say again? "if you're good enough you're old enough" wasn't it?

We've already got a DoF *shrugs*

And writing him off after he's only really been given free reign for just over a year is a bit dumb.

aah yeah we should give him more time so that he can "learn" his job

 

[sparx99]

I don’t know how many directors of football have actually shown an ability to move around and be successful at multiple clubs. It seems like more of a thing where you are suitable to one club.

Bayern have had their conveyor of ex-players, as has Barca.

Michael Edwards had a golden run at Liverpool.

Monchi was succesful at Sevilla but didn’t pull up any trees at Roma and we’ll see how he gets on at Villa.

Dan Ashworth did well at Brighton and is now at Newcastle but Brighton haven’t missed a beat since he left so who knows how much was his success.

Luis Campos did incredible work for Monaco but Lille wasn’t anywhere near as successful and we’ll see how he gets on at PSG.

It often seems to me that the best sporting directors are ones with a long association with a particular club because they understand what that club is all about. You can’t just hire Van Der Sar and Overmars and transplant Ajax’s success on to Man Utd. The philosophy and budgets are too different.

Essentially what we should all want is a DOF who intrinsically understands what Utd’s history is and what we stand for. They would then pursue the best young players in the world, players who have aggression and flair. Youth development through the academy plus high profile signing of young players like Rooney, Ronaldo and Ferdinand were should be our strategy. The occasional manger indulgence to to help with immediate results (RVP etc).

It’s then up-to the coach to mould a team.

 

[croadyman]

I don’t know how many directors of football have actually shown an ability to move around and be successful at multiple clubs. It seems like more of a thing where you are suitable to one club.

Bayern have had their conveyor of ex-players, as has Barca.

Michael Edwards had a golden run at Liverpool.

Monchi was succesful at Sevilla but didn’t pull up any trees at Roma and we’ll see how he gets on at Villa.

Dan Ashworth did well at Brighton and is now at Newcastle but Brighton haven’t missed a beat since he left so who knows how much was his success.

Luis Campos did incredible work for Monaco but Lille wasn’t anywhere near as successful and we’ll see how he gets on at PSG.

It often seems to me that the best sporting directors are ones with a long association with a particular club because they understand what that club is all about. You can’t just hire Van Der Sar and Overmars and transplant Ajax’s success on to Man Utd. The philosophy and budgets are too different.

Essentially what we should all want is a DOF who intrinsically understands what Utd’s history is and what we stand for. They would then pursue the best young players in the world, players who have aggression and flair. Youth development through the academy plus high profile signing of young players like Rooney, Ronaldo and Ferdinand were should be our strategy. The occasional manger indulgence to to help with immediate results (RVP etc).

It’s then up-to the coach to mould a team.

The tricky bit is finding someone who understands Utd's history,however also has the knowledge of both the British and European markets

 

[Gordon Godot]

The tricky bit is finding someone who understands Utd's history,however also has the knowledge of both the British and European markets

Other teams manage to do it.City just went out and hired the best people in the business, Brighton do it very well on limited budgets, overall Liverpool recruitment in last few years far better than ours. Newcastle also generally made good signings in a short period. Chelsea even worse than us. Its not guaranteed but there seems to be no coherent process or criteria.

 

[croadyman]

Other teams manage to do it.City just went out and hired the best people in the business, Brighton do it very well on limited budgets, overall Liverpool recruitment in last few years far better than ours. Newcastle also generally made good signings in a short period. Chelsea even worse than us. Its not guaranteed but there seems to be no coherent process or criteria.

Yeah that is very true but the City guys were recruited by owners who actually care about success on the pitch. Unless we are taken over by someone who feels that way then a DOF will never succeed at this club

 

[sparx99]

Yeah that is very true but the City guys were recruited by owners who actually care about success on the pitch. Unless we are taken over by someone who feels that way then a DOF will never succeed at this club

They also just transplanted Barcelona’s management team. They weren’t trying to hold onto an idea of what City is or was. They were outright trying to build a club up.

Essentially there was a blank page for them build whatever they wanted to and I’m not sure it’s as straightforward at Utd.

Utd are kind of where Barcelona were before Cruyff laid the foundations for their modern style. A great club with a great history but we’ve never been known for having an ingrained culture or philosophy beyond having a commitment to playing young players brought through the academy.

Attacking football is very vague, wing play you could make an argument but it’s also kind of out of fashion. I think in some ways Ten Hag talking about transition football is an attempt to formulate something of an identity.

 

[Okey]

Yeah I was gutted he didn't stay on in that role,however get the impression Erik never wanted to work with him unfortunately

Says all you need to know about how our club is run. A proper structure says you don't get rid of a DoF at the behest of a new manager. That's the wrong order of who should be more permanent in guiding the club's direction. Easy cop out if you didn't want to keep Ralf and his open heart surgery anyway.

 

[croadyman]

Says all you need to know about how our club is run. A proper structure says you don't get rid of a DoF at the behest of a new manager. That's the wrong order of who should be more permanent in guiding the club's direction. Easy cop out if you didn't want to keep Ralf and his open heart surgery anyway.

Yeah he diagnosed the problems and suggested solutions but wasn't given chance to implement

 

[Pscholes18]

Tweet

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[Zlatattack]

Who's the guy Sevilla have?

 

[FriedClams]

Tweet

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not who we need, not a great record in Spain

 

[redIndianDevil]

Knowing us we’d give the job to Rio after this guy turns us down

 

[croadyman]

not who we need, not a great record in Spain

Better than Murtough which is a positive

 

[Red the Bear]

Atleti's transfer business has been hit and miss, no?

 

[K Stand Knut]

We are not getting anyone in.

This is the usual nonsense propaganda that is fed to the media whenever we hit a slippery slope to appease the fans and people will think that we are going to make changes and turn it all around.

 

[Tyrion]

Knowing us we’d give the job to Rio after this guy turns us down

He was actually offered the job initially.

We are not getting anyone in.

This is the usual nonsense propaganda that is fed to the media whenever we hit a slippery slope to appease the fans and people will think that we are going to make changes and turn it all around.

Agreed. The DOF job was first mentioned after a bad defeat about a year before it was filled. It kept popping up after bad results in the following year.

 

[K Stand Knut]

He was actually offered the job initially.



Agreed. The DOF job was first mentioned after a bad defeat about a year before it was filled. It kept popping up after bad results in the following year.

Because football fans, and us in particular at present lap the BS up in the hope that it will actually make a difference to our situation.

Nothing will happen and Ten Hag will either turn it round or he won’t. If he doesn’t, he’ll be gone

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

It would be funny and on-brand if @Plastic Evra worked for the Glazers and this thread is how they went about finding candidates.

J/k Plastic Evra

 

[NoLogo]

Who's the guy Sevilla have?

Monchi. He did some great work with the limited funds he had at Sevilla but somehow didn't work out at Roma. Sevilla these days don't seem to be in the best spot though.

 

[croadyman]

Anyone people would actually want IF we did somehow actually get new owners

 

[Redstain]

Tweet

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Would take him he was promoted from research having initially joined around 2013 but since his time in a recruitment level role they've been relatively successful compared to United's collapse with the loss of SAF around the same period. Anyone but Murtough at this point.

 

[hobbers]

Funny thing is Murtough might have been a good dof. But since he has no experience and apparently no confidence/spine he gambled it all on ETH knowing how to build a squad, in addition to being a decent continental football coach.

 

[RedCurry]

To be honest, fans know jack shit. It’s the job of club CEO/owners to put a proper structure in place. If you ask me, get fking Florentino Perez.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

So with INEOS seems we'll most likely appoint someone.

 

[Teja]

We've already got a DoF *shrugs*

And writing him off after he's only really been given free reign for just over a year is a bit dumb.

There's enough evidence for me given the FdJ chase, the Antony overpay, the target selection being mostly Ten Hag, the DDG debacle at the end of the season, signing a 30yo Casemiro for 70M + big wages, not being able to sell any deadwood while everyone and their grandmother made some money off of the Saudi league etc. etc. etc.

He's caused significant damage in the two seasons he's been here. I don't think we have any money next summer given how much we spent the past two summers.

If Mount, Onana, Hojlund aren't instant hits, Murtough's name should be the first on the chopping block under the new ownership.

 

[NWJ-UnitedFC]

Ideally I would prefer someone born and bred Red for this role. Beckham is a potential candidate with his connection and charisma, he can bring a good amount of positivity back into United.