Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

OrcaFat

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“why do so many United fans not agree with me?”
 

glazed

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I've no love for the Glazers but why do you think the biggest problem is with them and not with the idiot who has chosen the last 4 managers?
Because he's not an idiot. He's following a business model. Just not the one we would like. It's the one the Glazers like. They buy young players with a higher resale value. Or they buy old player on a free or a small fee but for big salaries who sell shirts. They avoid the late twenties types at the peak of their game who decline in value and want big transfer fees.

On Maquire, Mou has already bought Bailly and Lindelof as CBs. Is it a surprise the club didn't want to fork out another 70m on a CB at the time?
These were young players of limited pedigree that could most likely be resold for the same or more. That's the business model. Maguire was pretty young but even that was pushing it given his fee. But the need for top four eventually required it. Alderweireld from Spurs (who Jose really wanted most) was a complete non starter given his age and the fee. There was a direct battle between Jose's desire for results and Woodward's desire to manage the long term spreadsheet. Jose lost. Ole wouldn't even be strong enough to have the battle.

I can't understand either why you think Ole hasn't got who he wanted. Look at the class of player that's been brought in for him. If the CM position hasn't been sorted it's on Ole who's had 4 or 5 windows to address the position. It wouldn't surprise me if he thinks the position doesn't need looked at because he does love his McFred.
I just don't believe that he wanted VdB and Ronaldo more than he wanted a DM. He would have to be a truly terrible manager to think that was right, and I doubt he's that bad. As they say in Belfast, the dogs in the street know who runs transfer policy at Old Trafford, and it isn't the smiley smurf guy with no qualifications but who makes top reds swoon with nostalgia. So they will let him buy Bellingham when his contract nears an end. They won't let him buy Rice right now. That's how we differ from City.
 

glazed

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I'm reminded of the politician's syllogism:

Something must be done
Here's something we can do
Therefore let's do this

Replacing the manager is something we can do. Replacing the owners or the players or restructuring the club is much more difficult. But those difficult things are where the solutions actually lie. If we ditch Ole we will just get another unsatisfactory manager because the conditions that gave rise to the last four are still in place.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Because he's not an idiot. He's following a business model. Just not the one we would like. It's the one the Glazers like. They buy young players with a higher resale value. Or they buy old player on a free or a small fee but for big salaries who sell shirts. They avoid the late twenties types at the peak of their game who decline in value and want big transfer fees.
I think from the clubs point of view the Mourinho experience was a big learning curve for them and since then the structure of the club has been changing. Especially regarding transfers and I can't really see anything wrong with that. Gone (I hope) are the days of signing mercenaries like Di Maria. Instead we're focusing on players who want to be here and not just for the fat pay cheques (Sanchez) although obviously that helps.

I don't see any correlation with signing young players with resale value because we don't sell anybody. Quite the opposite in fact. We may take punts on players like James or Pereira but I don't think anyone can say we buy them to make a profit on them. I will agree with you about signing older players for shirt sales but I think any team would benefit from having players like Ronaldo, Cavani or Zlatan in their side. Hopefully we've learnt to stay away from players like Schweinsteiger and Falcao who were finished at a higher level.

These were young players of limited pedigree that could most likely be resold for the same or more. That's the business model. Maguire was pretty young but even that was pushing it given his fee. But the need for top four eventually required it. Alderweireld from Spurs (who Jose really wanted most) was a complete non starter given his age and the fee. There was a direct battle between Jose's desire for results and Woodward's desire to manage the long term spreadsheet. Jose lost. Ole wouldn't even be strong enough to have the battle.
I think we've had plenty of opportunities to get rid of players like Bailly but the club don't want to sell and I think we could all name 10 other players in a similar situation so I don't think it's any sort of business model from the club. Basically it boils down to us being useless in selling on players. I do agree there was a battle between Jose and the club in the transfer market but once again I'll say the club were right not to let Jose get his way. I think most are in agreement with this.

I just don't believe that he wanted VdB and Ronaldo more than he wanted a DM. He would have to be a truly terrible manager to think that was right, and I doubt he's that bad. As they say in Belfast, the dogs in the street know who runs transfer policy at Old Trafford, and it isn't the smiley smurf guy with no qualifications but who makes top reds swoon with nostalgia. So they will let him buy Bellingham when his contract nears an end. They won't let him buy Rice right now. That's how we differ from City.
I have to say I'm from Belfast and I've never heard that saying :lol: I really don't know what to make of the CM position. I'm at a loss for words. We can all speculate but if Ole is strengthening in all other areas of the pitch less the CM common sense says he thinks it's the area that needs less attention which would be very worrying in itself. Once again I can't see anything wrong with signing Bellingham types. We know he's not being bought only for us to sell him on at a profit. My biggest gripe is not signing them before they go to other clubs and then we have to pay premium value but would you really complain too much if Rice is valued at 90m and we don't buy him? We may be one of the richest clubs in the world but paying top notch for every position isn't the way to go. Especially if the player isn't worth the money.
 

Red Shorts

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The two best managers in the league haven't exactly set the world alight so far, have they?

I'm not an Ole fanboi either, before anyone suggests I am. But let's be honest, those who want him out can do so all they want; the reality is the Glazers will do it once we really are on the decline, both in the league standings and in cups. Neither of those have happened so far.
 

glazed

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The two best managers in the league haven't exactly set the world alight so far, have they?

I'm not an Ole fanboi either, before anyone suggests I am. But let's be honest, those who want him out can do so all they want; the reality is the Glazers will do it once we really are on the decline, both in the league standings and in cups. Neither of those have happened so far.
There's little expectation we should finish above City or Chelsea. If we finish 3rd of 4th they will be satisfied.
 

wolvored

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I think from the clubs point of view the Mourinho experience was a big learning curve for them and since then the structure of the club has been changing. Especially regarding transfers and I can't really see anything wrong with that. Gone (I hope) are the days of signing mercenaries like Di Maria. Instead we're focusing on players who want to be here and not just for the fat pay cheques (Sanchez) although obviously that helps.

I don't see any correlation with signing young players with resale value because we don't sell anybody. Quite the opposite in fact. We may take punts on players like James or Pereira but I don't think anyone can say we buy them to make a profit on them. I will agree with you about signing older players for shirt sales but I think any team would benefit from having players like Ronaldo, Cavani or Zlatan in their side. Hopefully we've learnt to stay away from players like Schweinsteiger and Falcao who were finished at a higher level.



I think we've had plenty of opportunities to get rid of players like Bailly but the club don't want to sell and I think we could all name 10 other players in a similar situation so I don't think it's any sort of business model from the club. Basically it boils down to us being useless in selling on players. I do agree there was a battle between Jose and the club in the transfer market but once again I'll say the club were right not to let Jose get his way. I think most are in agreement with this.



I have to say I'm from Belfast and I've never heard that saying :lol: I really don't know what to make of the CM position. I'm at a loss for words. We can all speculate but if Ole is strengthening in all other areas of the pitch less the CM common sense says he thinks it's the area that needs less attention which would be very worrying in itself. Once again I can't see anything wrong with signing Bellingham types. We know he's not being bought only for us to sell him on at a profit. My biggest gripe is not signing them before they go to other clubs and then we have to pay premium value but would you really complain too much if Rice is valued at 90m and we don't buy him? We may be one of the richest clubs in the world but paying top notch for every position isn't the way to go. Especially if the player isn't worth the money.
Fat pay cheques is exactly what Pogba wants. The fact hes holding out and isnt satisfied with the one on the table
 

Red Shorts

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There's little expectation we should finish above City or Chelsea. If we finish 3rd of 4th they will be satisfied.
Thats the benchmark they have now set it seems as owners. As long as we still have the fanbase and be able to bring in the revenue we do, they give zero shites.
 

Amir

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I think we've had plenty of opportunities to get rid of players like Bailly but the club don't want to sell and I think we could all name 10 other players in a similar situation so I don't think it's any sort of business model from the club. Basically it boils down to us being useless in selling on players.
I agree with most of what you've written and I feel that our real complaint about the Glazers shouldn't be about money we've spent or some model we have - but about the fact they've been unable to put in place the people who would select the right manager. Whatever we've tried has been not been successful, or successful enough, in four attempts.

However, while we obviously struggle to sell players - I think we have a bigger issue: Some weird fear of letting players go for free. We keep giving new contracts to fringe players. Maybe it's an attempt to keep some value attached to them to we can cash him on them, but if we fail to sell them we are just stuck with them.
 

glazed

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Exactly. Every single one of them should not have got the job at the time they were appointed.
And yet we act like this is just a random coincidence. It's not. And Ole's replacement will be equally unable to do anything to win silverware. Because the problem is not the manager. The manager is a symptom.

Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.

Had City not become an oil state's PR bauble, we probably would have been champions last season and also under Jose. The world has changed from SAF's day and winning the league may be beyond us. Just dreaming that a superstar manager is going to waltz in and make it all work seems a bit simplistic. If that were the case it would have been done long ago.

And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
 

Sviken

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Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.
So well that they're now permament mid-tablers fighting for an Europa League spot. I mean... simply genius stuff.
 

Amir

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Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine.
We just finished second, and they went and signed three players...

I don't expect United to outspend City, a club that doesn't need to exist on its own income. And we've spent quite a bit since 2014. Where we regularly failed is appointing managers. The last four all had clear failings.
 

kthanksbye

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The problem is that even our board seems to be oblivious to the importance of a good manager, and competent coaching staff in general. We got LvG 10 years late, Jose 4 years late, football evolves, Jose was peaking when counterattacking football was the shit. Porto Chelsea and Inter used him well in that period. That style doesn't work anymore, Klopp with his style of football won the PL and the CL. Our board is incapable of identifying what system we have to implement and then sign a manager who can implement it the best. Then when in 3-5 years there's a new system getting results, we need the board to overlook that transition of a new manager and changes he needs to make to the squad.
 

yipthatman

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Most fans, including myself were blinded by nostalgia. I think it is more obvious as each match goes by. How can a team be worse than the sum of it's parts? Management and coaching.
 

Siezard

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
 

Hammondo

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
Doubt it, should never have been in that competition at all.
 

kthanksbye

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
Not really, it would have worked in Ole's credit yes but the fact that we did not qualify for the CL KO and the kind of football we've been playing would still be called out and rightly so.
 

Dan_F

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Fat pay cheques is exactly what Pogba wants. The fact hes holding out and isnt satisfied with the one on the table
Who’s offering him more than £400k a week for (probably) five years?
 

Forevergiggs1

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Fat pay cheques is exactly what Pogba wants. The fact hes holding out and isnt satisfied with the one on the table
I want Pogba to go but I can't blame him for holding out. He's 28 now and it's going to be his last big contract, at least in Europe and seeing how we keep giving ludicrous contracts to players why shouldn't he push his luck? Especially if no one else wants/can afford him.

I agree with most of what you've written and I feel that our real complaint about the Glazers shouldn't be about money we've spent or some model we have - but about the fact they've been unable to put in place the people who would select the right manager. Whatever we've tried has been not been successful, or successful enough, in four attempts.

However, while we obviously struggle to sell players - I think we have a bigger issue: Some weird fear of letting players go for free. We keep giving new contracts to fringe players. Maybe it's an attempt to keep some value attached to them to we can cash him on them, but if we fail to sell them we are just stuck with them.
I wouldn't bet all my money on it but hopefully with the restructuring going on inside the club it shows some intent of at least trying to get into the 21st century. It's been incredible the naivety on hiring managers especially at our club when we've experienced first hand the importance on finding the right person for the job but then again giving Ole another contract when we did doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

I agree it's weird our transfer/extend contract policy. I've read somewhere that in the last decade we've only made a profit on selling 5 players. The most profit we've made was selling Dan James which in itself is an incredible stat.
 

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We live in a country that employed Sam Allardyce as the NT manager and was optimistic.

United are stuck in 90s footballing culture.
 

AndySmith1990

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
Certain people would certainly argue that case, but it could also be argued that ending up in the Europa league again points to not making progress. Comfortably making it to the latter stages of the CL every season would give me more confidence in the manager than winning the Europa league every season.
 

justsomebloke

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And yet we act like this is just a random coincidence. It's not. And Ole's replacement will be equally unable to do anything to win silverware. Because the problem is not the manager. The manager is a symptom.

Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.

Had City not become an oil state's PR bauble, we probably would have been champions last season and also under Jose. The world has changed from SAF's day and winning the league may be beyond us. Just dreaming that a superstar manager is going to waltz in and make it all work seems a bit simplistic. If that were the case it would have been done long ago.

And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
We have the second highest net spend in the PL in the post-Ferguson era, 950.4 million to City's 1.021.4. Not much of a difference. And Arsenal, incidentally, is third (629.2 m). So whatever is the reason why United and Arsenal has gone downwards, it's not a lack of investment. Unwise transfer decisions (Arsenal) and frequent changes of direction (United) seem the most obvious culprits to me.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
It's really not. Winning trophies playing hit and miss football is a mid table club mentality. I'd much rather go without trophies if I see marked improvement on the playing side. When we start playing consistently well the trophies will come with the squad we have but for now we're not playing consistently well or winning trophies which after 3 years should be more of a worry to the people who continually support Ole.
 

justsomebloke

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Seeing a lot of "after 3 years" and arguments along the line of different things having been consistently not good enough throughout those three years etc.

Which I think is very sloppy thinking. We were a completely different team in 2019 than we are now. How we've been in those 3 years seen as a whole is not important. And if anyone thinks that we are anything other than a much different and a much better team now than we were in the spring of 2019, you need your memory checked. If you think you've been seeing the same thing for three years, then sorry, you've lost it. You haven't.

What's important is where we'll be this season and next. It's fine to think we should be seeing something better than we currently are (I do too), but let's not forget that's about questioning progress. This has been a process and even if things do pick up, we're probably not at the end of it yet.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Seeing a lot of "after 3 years" and arguments along the line of different things having been consistently not good enough throughout those three years etc.

Which I think is very sloppy thinking. We were a completely different team in 2019 than we are now. How we've been in those 3 years seen as a whole is not important. And if anyone thinks that we are anything other than a much different and a much better team now than we were in the spring of 2019, you need your memory checked. If you think you've been seeing the same thing for three years, then sorry, you've lost it. You haven't.

What's important is where we'll be this season and next. It's fine to think we should be seeing something better than we currently are (I do too), but let's not forget that's about questioning progress. This has been a process and even if things do pick up, we're probably not at the end of it yet.
The only thing that's changed in the last 3 years is we now have better players for which Ole and the club deserve credit but that's where the difference ends. The tactics (or lack of) are the same ever since Ole signed as permanent manager. Purple patch followed by horrendous performances is the norm under Ole. This season we all expected much better performances from what we're seeing with the signings made but nothing has changed. Of course players need time to settle but the last month has seen us play the worst football I can ever remember us playing.

To be honest I'm waiting for us to go on a decent run now with the games coming up which is another Ole trait. Wait till he's under pressure pulls off some great results before it inevitability turns to shit again. In cat lives he's probably spent about 7 of his 9 so hopefully it won't be too long before we actually get someone in who knows what it takes to manage at the highest level because I think even the most ardent Ole supporters knows Ole isn't the one.
 

Longshanks

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I always find it amusing how staunch Ole outers are adamant our rivals all have considerably better managers than us and those rivals have at least similar quality squads if not better than us. Yet if we finish just below them this season that would be a catastrophic failure that proves that Ole is an utterly useless manager.

Mental gymnastics and all that.

The fact is the PL is as competitive as I can ever remember it, i don't think I can remember it being so competitive the task for Ole is probably one of the most difficult any manager has faced pittting himself against 2 managers who are the best of there generation and another who is very highly rated. All of which have world class teams and 2 of which have bottomless resources and incredibly deep squads full of top talent.

The competiveness of the Premier league doesn't end there either with the top ten all being sides that wouldn't look out of place in the champions league and even the bottom ten would all be fairly comfortable in any other league in Europe.

7 games is all we have played so far not even a 1/4 of the season, its not been a perfect start by any stretch of the imaganation but even if it was it wouldn't guarantee anything we would still be just 7 games in with everything still to play for. All the teams will have little spells where they struggle for a few games and they will have spells where they look unbeatable its a long season with lots still to happen and as its stands anything is still possible.
 

glazed

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The only thing that's changed in the last 3 years is we now have better players for which Ole and the club deserve credit but that's where the difference ends. The tactics (or lack of) are the same ever since Ole signed as permanent manager.
That is because the players aren't being bought to fit an overall style of play. The style of play is being determined by the available players which is why it is so disjointed and basic. Ultimately we are over reliant on individual brilliance which makes routinely grinding out wins quite hard.
 

Forevergiggs1

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That is because the players aren't being bought to fit an overall style of play. The style of play is being determined by the available players which is why it is so disjointed and basic. Ultimately we are over reliant on individual brilliance which makes routinely grinding out wins quite hard.
But when will it ever end? Last season we all said we need a player on the right. We bought Sancho. We said we need a better CB to accompany Maquire. We got Varane. A lot of people said we need an out and out striker , we got Ronaldo. That's 2 WC players for their positions and a potential WC talent in Sancho. Like I said before players need time to settle but not on the level we've been witnessing this season with our performances.

For me at least it's as plain as day that Ole doesn't have what it takes to manage these level of players. How could he after what he's shown in 10 years of management? While it may be disjointed there are plenty of managers out there that could get a better tune out of the squad than Ole and I don't think it's going to be too long before the players turn on him so one of Oles strengths in bringing the feel good factor back will soon be forgotten. What does that leave him? Man management? Not throwing his players under the bus? I don't think that's reason enough to keep him on as manager. Do you?
 

glazed

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But when will it ever end? Last season we all said we need a player on the right. We bought Sancho. We said we need a better CB to accompany Maquire. We got Varane. A lot of people said we need an out and out striker , we got Ronaldo.
We did need those things. Arguably we did not need a striker because Cavani came good, but Ronaldo is an upgrade. But we also need a defensive midfield so the whole thing hangs together and doesn't misfire, leaving us constantly vulnerable on the break.

But the deeper issue is that we do not have the pattern of high press play that the most successful teams have. And yes that does require a much better manager than Ole. But it also requires a different set of players bought with that purpose. And therefore it ultimately requires owners who are willing to put success on the field ahead of short term financial decisions.

If it were as easy as going to the manager shop and buying the delux version, we would have done it already.
 

Maticmaker

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Ever since Martin Edwards put the club up as a quoted entity on the stock exchange, there has always been the need for two senior managers at the club one for the playing side and one to make money. It was perhaps inevitable that when a business operation, like the Glazer's have, came along these two senior managers, instead of working together on every aspect, would eventually be conflicted at times because their aims differed. The worst case scenario in recent times was undoubtedly Jose and Ed Woodward.

The owners seemed to realise (at least at one stage) that a tripartite senior manager configuration was required, CEO, DoF and Manager/Coach, where disputes and disagreements could be settled preferably with all three in agreement, but on a 2-1 vote if necessary.
Now however there is still no discernible tripartite structure, the Chairman is the heavyweight decision-maker, Ole gets a hearing no doubt but his position as interim manager promoted to full time Senior Team Coach doesn't put him on a par with the Chairman (and owner), or it might be said, give him the gravitas of a proven top flight manager. Somehow Ole, until he starts collecting silverware, will not be able to affect any real top decisions at the club and I feel its unfair for us fans to believe he can.

United fans have always recognised the importance of good managers,at the club, its just we now have the money maker managers in the ascendancy.
 

Forevergiggs1

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We did need those things. Arguably we did not need a striker because Cavani came good, but Ronaldo is an upgrade. But we also need a defensive midfield so the whole thing hangs together and doesn't misfire, leaving us constantly vulnerable on the break.

But the deeper issue is that we do not have the pattern of high press play that the most successful teams have. And yes that does require a much better manager than Ole. But it also requires a different set of players bought with that purpose. And therefore it ultimately requires owners who are willing to put success on the field ahead of short term financial decisions.

If it were as easy as going to the manager shop and buying the delux version, we would have done it already.
This is why I asked when will it ever end? We needed to fill 4 important positions on the pitch and we filled 3 of them with very little effect, which makes me doubt signing a DM is suddenly going to turn us into serial PL or CL winners. It's the whole system failing and not just in 1 position.

I still think you're underestimating the players we have. Good players can be taught systems like high pressing without having to change half the team. Take Mahrez at City. Would anyone who watched him at Leicester ever think he could ever fit into a Pep team? His roles in the 2 sides were night and day but he had no problem adjusting to a different system.

I can't believe young hungry players like Greenwood, Rashford or Sancho can't be taught the art of the high press. It's like anything in life. The more you practise a thing the more natural it becomes but when you look at our players chasing after a ball it's really quite comical. It's every man for himself with zero patterns which is why it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the players start to get pissed off which will be the start of Oles downfall.
 

glazed

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I can't believe young hungry players like Greenwood, Rashford or Sancho can't be taught the art of the high press. It's like anything in life. The more you practise a thing the more natural it becomes but when you look at our players chasing after a ball it's really quite comical. It's every man for himself with zero patterns which is why it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the players start to get pissed off which will be the start of Oles downfall.
I agree some will and some won't be able to do it. Top of the won't list are DDG and Ronaldo though. There will be a couple of others - Pogba probably. That's not easy to work around. It will take time and money. Why bother when you can get top four without it?

This is why I asked when will it ever end? We needed to fill 4 important positions on the pitch and we filled 3 of them with very little effect, which makes me doubt signing a DM is suddenly going to turn us into serial PL or CL winners. It's the whole system failing and not just in 1 position.
This is true. But the club strategy is not to win these things but to participate in them. A hotchpotch of kids and aging Harlem Globetrotters can do that effectively as well as sell shirts.
 
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Mr. MUJAC

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Walter Crickmer started it all...
It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?
It has always irked me than the history of our club has proven than sticking wit
It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?
Yep...we tried Van Gaal and Mourinho...loved watching that football.

FFS
 

wolvored

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Who’s offering him more than £400k a week for (probably) five years?
We dont know if that amount is whats on the table, but if Pogba can be got on a free PSG for example can offer a lot more. Maybe Madrid, where he really wants to go.
 

wolvored

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I want Pogba to go but I can't blame him for holding out. He's 28 now and it's going to be his last big contract, at least in Europe and seeing how we keep giving ludicrous contracts to players why shouldn't he push his luck? Especially if no one else wants/can afford him.
I agree. Hes been here 6 years and won 3 minor trophies. Hes won more at International level. This is his last hurrah. He wants a crack at winning a league and Ch league.