Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

Nou_Camp99

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What you seem to be saying is that unless the very best is available, you may as well stick with someone who's essentially, not good enough.

Conte, the last time he was in the PL, won it, and won it well. Clearly, he is an improvement and in my opinion it's hard to argue that he wouldn't do a better job given his pedigree and experience. There are (by any sensible standard) better managers out there, who are available. Whether you like them or not isn't the point.

There is no "answer" - no manager is a guaranteed success. And I am not desperate to see the manager go, more so being realistic that he looks completely out of his depth.

When we look past the romance of it all, and the admittedly good start he had, objectively looking at his record he had done nothing to deserve the job. He's done nothing since to suggest he's going to be good enough to challenge for the top trophies or take us to the next level. With the players he has - especially those brought in this summer, he has to challenge. As it stands, in mid-October we're already off the pace.

He issue now is that he has to deliver given the investment and the players he has and under the pressure, he looks increasingly lost. The Ronaldo factor is huge, because if he's unhappy, he isn't going to sit quietly by and waste the last few years of his top level career fighting for fourth in the PL.
There's more to it than that. Do you think Conte is a good fit for the Glazers, Woodward and co. I honestly couldn't think of a worse fit for our club on how it is run. He falls out with everyone as it is. Conte will never succeed here.
 

Andersons Dietician

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When city won the premiership in 2012, on goal difference. Fergie said " this won't happen again" and brought in Van Persie who scored us the goals.
We won the Premiership in 2013 by 11 clear points. That's what GREAT managers do.
I would bet my House that Fergie would have made sure to bring in a Top midfielder or 2 last summer.
The heartbeat of every great team is the midfield where games are dominated.
The problem is not just the midfield though. It’s upfront , it’s in defence, it’s in the structure of our play and one midfielder ain’t going to solve that if the guys in front of them continue doing the same rubbish.

I’m not saying we can’t upgrade on midfield but more than just that needs to change. Possesion, tempo and intensity of off the ball work. Too many people standing around watching the ball than giving options or causing problems. The dodeling and just generally being wasteful with the ball. Bruno, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Lingard Bissaka, Shaw are as responsible for the poor approach play as whomever is in the midfield duo because they seem to play without any structure. It’s all just whimsical reactions from the looks of it.
 

AneRu

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The problem is not just the midfield though. It’s upfront , it’s in defence, it’s in the structure of our play and one midfielder ain’t going to solve that if the guys in front of them continue doing the same rubbish.

I’m not saying we can’t upgrade on midfield but more than just that needs to change. Possesion, tempo and intensity of off the ball work. Too many people standing around watching the ball than giving options or causing problems. The dodeling and just generally being wasteful with the ball. Bruno, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Lingard Bissaka, Shaw are as responsible for the poor approach play as whomever is in the midfield duo because they seem to play without any structure. It’s all just whimsical reactions from the looks of it.
I agree that there are tactical issues that are stopping us from being fluid but the midfield issue is also top of the list. The midfielder is always the one with the most touches, passes etc so I think it doesn't help to have a situation where your deepest midfielders are amongst the biggest culprits in losing possession either through blind passes or through poor first touch.

I also think that amongst our issues is the manager's ideological disdain of possession football's basic principles e.g I remember him and/or his former team mates referring to good possession play as tippy tappy. I think this attitude is at the root of our players' growing carelessness in possession especially the tendency to force every pass to be a killer ball even when it's not on.

Possession football helps tire out opponents and ensures that the defense isn't under constant pressure. We should be doing more to utilize it.
 

UnitedSofa

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United fans are bred to stick with the manager. That works when the manager is good.

Unfortunately we've currently got a manager that can't get half a tune from a world class squad/guitar.

Tuchel rests the same amount of players and is 1.0 up in 9 mins. Chelsea will win handsomely.

United should have lost today.

It also doesn't help when forums like these are censored so much. Content from anyone with an opposing or critical view is deleted or threads locked.

Free speech and all that....
What on earth are you talking about?
 

RedRover

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There's more to it than that. Do you think Conte is a good fit for the Glazers, Woodward and co. I honestly couldn't think of a worse fit for our club on how it is run. He falls out with everyone as it is. Conte will never succeed here.
I think he'd do a far better job with the team and he'd know what he was taking on if he took the job and would be expected to work within it.

Last summer the club brought in Ronaldo, a world cup winning centre-back who's won everything in the game and one of the most highly rated young players in the world. The squad is a good squad.

In what way will the owners and Woodward (as long as he's still around) impact what he can do with the squad he has?

He may not be a likeable man and he may fall out with people. Plenty of good managers are like that. He's a winner and he's won everywhere he's been. No appointment in modern football is long term.

To be honest, if the argument for keeping a manager is that the perfect replacement isn't available, that's already accepting that the person in charge isn't good enough.

I'll never understand the mentality of accepting mediocrity. The arguments that there's nobody better or more suitable out there I just don't accept. I've seen people say on here that we won't find anyone to compete with Pep, Klopp or Tuchel. Only one of those was properly proven at the very highest level before they took on their current role. How come clubs like Chelsea can sack managers when they fail, identify talent and succeed and United can't? The club seem stuck in a perpetual state of having a chance to appoint a particular manager, deciding not to and watching them succeed elsewhere.
 
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Hansi Fick

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All of Moyes, Vangle, Mourinho and Ole have, in one way or another, shown that they weren't up to the task long before the fans became "suitably impatient".
If I may say so, they all showed that before they were appointed..
 

MphoG

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I’m very far from a Ole fan, I think he’s reached his peak as far as progressing to a top top team to challenge for title. He just doesn’t have the ability. However, the last 2 weeks have been embarrassing, the character assassination on every sports news site and article has been on another level. From Fergie being upset about Ronaldo not starting to a supposed spat with Cavani, to a spat with Donny. The media are having a field day trying to make it look like he’s losing control. I’m not sure he’s going to be able to survive the onslaught
 

Flytan

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I’m very far from a Ole fan, I think he’s reached his peak as far as progressing to a top top team to challenge for title. He just doesn’t have the ability. However, the last 2 weeks have been embarrassing, the character assassination on every sports news site and article has been on another level. From Fergie being upset about Ronaldo not starting to a supposed spat with Cavani, to a spat with Donny. The media are having a field day trying to make it look like he’s losing control. I’m not sure he’s going to be able to survive the onslaught
I mean is it really on the media if those things are actually happening? Sounds to me the responsibility lies with the players and ole.

They did the same thing for lampard and mourinho
 

Bebestation

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I'm not sure it's that fans are oblivious to the importance of a good manager :

It's more the fans going after a manager like Jose Mourinho and then 3 years later pretending like they never really asked for it. It's kind of happening now with some of their choices.

The same thing with Sancho and transfers. Everyone wanted him. Now he hasn't had the beat of starts some are backing off already - some are saying that we should have signed a CDM instead. Pretending like we never asked for it.
 

Born2Lose

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They're not oblivious, it's that they're not myopic enough to think that a "good manager" will override all the other weaknesses at the club.
 

Plant0x84

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It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?
Why are some Man Utd fans oblivious to the importance of patience and stability?
 

Jackal981

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Kind of ironic some people saying we are too loyal to managers.

Alex Ferguson hand-picked a successor and asked the fans to back him during his final speech.

"I would like to remind you this club stood by me in bad times, the players and the staff," he said. "Your job now is to stand by the new manager."

We hounded said replacement out of the door before a year had even passed.

We had a perfect guy in the mould of Busby and Ferguson, and we chucked him overboard at the first sign of trouble. Ferguson would have been jettisoned too under the modern fanbase. It takes time to for a manager to impliment ideas. Klopp and Pep were wise to give the role a wide berth.
Perfect guy ? Really ? What is so perfect about him ? No manager is perfect
 

RedRover

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Why are some Man Utd fans oblivious to the importance of patience and stability?
Is that patience never ending? Is stability better than success? I suspect that top players and managers believe that it isn't.

Looking back, If United had appointed a manager unconnected to the club who had won the league in Norway and been relegated from the PL, there'd have been uproar. In fact, it wouldn't ever have happened. The stark reality that he isn't up to the job is becoming ever more obvious, now the romance of it has all died down. And if anyone is honest, it's not, actually, that much of a surprise.

He's been here long enough to make an impact, and this summer he's arguably been given three world class players, yet the side looks no better. We look simple to play against - sit deep, soak up the pressure, hit on the break. He dithers instead of being brave enough to make big calls in games, usually waiting until it's too late to have any effect or change the pattern of the game. He's been dug out by individual performances repeatedly since his appointment.

What exactly are people seeing that makes them think he has the ability to turn this around, other than blind hope?
 
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Flytan

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Why are some Man Utd fans oblivious to the importance of patience and stability?
Because it doesn't exist in world football.

Patience and stability are fine.

Mediocrity and playing without any plan for 3 years aren't.

I'm convinced some of you would rather finish 3rd/4th every year with Ole instead of winning a title every 4 years with a real manager.
 

Strelok

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I’m very far from a Ole fan, I think he’s reached his peak as far as progressing to a top top team to challenge for title. He just doesn’t have the ability. However, the last 2 weeks have been embarrassing, the character assassination on every sports news site and article has been on another level. From Fergie being upset about Ronaldo not starting to a supposed spat with Cavani, to a spat with Donny. The media are having a field day trying to make it look like he’s losing control. I’m not sure he’s going to be able to survive the onslaught
Tbh I feel a bit for him too. He had brought us back from the shamble post Mourinho, assembled a squad capable of winning the title, got the first actual chance to prove he could win big silverwares and imo the signing of Ronaldo has made things much more complicated for him. But he doesn't help himself either after how he treated Cavani and the story of he promised DVB game time when DVB wanted to go on loan.

Anyway, if he want to succeed at a club as big as United sooner or later he'll have to deal with issues like Ronaldo. Or to deal with the pressure and especially the media. If he can't he is simply not good enough I think.
 

shamans

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Is that patience never ending? Is stability better than success? I suspect that top players and manager believe that it isn't.

Looking back, If United had appointed a manager unconnected to the club who had won the league in Norway and been relegated from the PL, there'd have been uproar. In fact, it wouldn't ever have happened. The stark reality that he isn't up to the job is becoming ever more obvious, now the romance of it has all died down. And if anyone is honest, it's not, actually, that much of a surprise.

He's been here long enough to make an impact, and this summer he's arguably been given three world class players, yet the side looks no better. We look simple to play against - sit deep, soak up the pressure, hit on the break. He dithers instead of being brave enough to make big calls in games, usually waiting until it's too late to have any effect or change the pattern of the game. He's been dug out by individual performances repeatedly since his appointment.

What exactly are people seeing that makes them think he has the ability to turn this around, other than blind hope?
Great post. I think people are clinging onto the nostalgia aspect.

Winning the league title with ole would be so sweet. Club legend coming back to guide the players and all.

The bitter truth is all the you've mentioned.
 

kthanksbye

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If any one watched Italy Spain last night, these are players who don't even play at the same club, they get like 18-20 training sessions per year with each other.
I don't know what else could underline the importance of a good manager.
 

justsomebloke

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It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?
What a stupid question. You start from misrepresenting the argument in a way that turns it into something that is self-evidently self-defeating, and then ask why people are so stupid that they think this. Pointless.

The reality of course is:

People don't think that all managers are equally good. They just think that it's a bit more complicated than "Graham Potter 74" and "Jürgen Klopp 98". Among other things because, as experience attests to, it often happens that managers perform splendidly one season and horribly the next, or are huge successes at one club and then a flop at another. This heavily suggests that a lot more things go into the outcome than your manager having "the right level".

They also think that it's not actually that clear who is an "average manager", and rightly reject the notion that anyone who has not yet provided top results at an elite club never will, because he hasn't proven his "elite level" credentials. They may recall the fact that at some point in the past, exactly the same logic could have been employed with the same validity against Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho or any other manager.

Needless to say, nobody in their right mind think that a club will do well with a manager "who has no plan and no tactical nous". They may however disagree with you that Manchester United currently has a manager with no plan and no tactical nous.

And also needless to say, I think we can safely assume there are few to none United fans who have failed to notice that City and Liverpool play a recognisable brand of football and have had some success with it. They may also have noticed that there are other teams in the world who have also had success, without necessarily doing things in the same way as Klopp or Guardiola, which means that success for United may not be entirely down to finding a replica of Klopp or Guardiola.

So, the answer to your question is: Because, unlike you, they have thought things through sufficiently to at least understand what the questions are.
 

NinjaZombie

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I’m very far from a Ole fan, I think he’s reached his peak as far as progressing to a top top team to challenge for title. He just doesn’t have the ability. However, the last 2 weeks have been embarrassing, the character assassination on every sports news site and article has been on another level. From Fergie being upset about Ronaldo not starting to a supposed spat with Cavani, to a spat with Donny. The media are having a field day trying to make it look like he’s losing control. I’m not sure he’s going to be able to survive the onslaught
All he needs to do is pull his finger out, make better decisions and start winning games and ultimately, trophies.
 

MuFc_1992

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What a stupid question. You start from misrepresenting the argument in a way that turns it into something that is self-evidently self-defeating, and then ask why people are so stupid that they think this. Pointless.

The reality of course is:

People don't think that all managers are equally good. They just think that it's a bit more complicated than "Graham Potter 74" and "Jürgen Klopp 98". Among other things because, as experience attests to, it often happens that managers perform splendidly one season and horribly the next, or are huge successes at one club and then a flop at another. This heavily suggests that a lot more things go into the outcome than your manager having "the right level".

They also think that it's not actually that clear who is an "average manager", and rightly reject the notion that anyone who has not yet provided top results at an elite club never will, because he hasn't proven his "elite level" credentials. They may recall the fact that at some point in the past, exactly the same logic could have been employed with the same validity against Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho or any other manager.

Needless to say, nobody in their right mind think that a club will do well with a manager "who has no plan and no tactical nous". They may however disagree with you that Manchester United currently has a manager with no plan and no tactical nous.

And also needless to say, I think we can safely assume there are few to none United fans who have failed to notice that City and Liverpool play a recognisable brand of football and have had some success with it. They may also have noticed that there are other teams in the world who have also had success, without necessarily doing things in the same way as Klopp or Guardiola, which means that success for United may not be entirely down to finding a replica of Klopp or Guardiola.

So, the answer to your question is: Because, unlike you, they have thought things through sufficiently to at least understand what the questions are.
Nope I'm just questioning the distinct lack of Plan in way we approach our games. Do you honestly think it is stupid to point out that our players are second guessing what to do next after getting the ball? Its blatantly obvious to anyone watching us play and I think the point of disagreement between us is that I think it is necessary to have a manager who has a certain style of play and you think that it is optional as Ole has done well enough in other aspects of his job such as recruitment and there have been managers in the past who have done well without having it. Pep and Klopp use repetition in their training sessions to make sure that passing and movement becomes second nature to them and therefore they are able to play much better football than us. They are not the only managers who can do it but our manager who's been here for more than 3 seasons has shown no sign that he's able to do it. Why is it stupid to question the logic of supporting a manager who has shown zero signs of what I believe to be the important part of building a successful team?
 
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justsomebloke

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Nope I'm just questioning the distinct lack of Plan in way we approach our games. Do you honestly think it is stupid to point out that our players are second guessing what to do next after getting the ball? Its blatantly obvious to anyone watching us play and I think the point of disagreement between us is that I think it is necessary to have a manager who has a certain style of play and you think that it is optional as Ole has done well enough in other aspects of his job such as recruitment and there have been managers in the past who have done well without having it. Pep and Klopp use repetition in their training sessions to make sure that passing and movement becomes second nature to them and therefore they are able to play much better football than us. They are not the only managers who can do it but our manager who's been here for more than 3 seasons has shown no sign that he's able to do it. Why is it stupid to question the logic of supporting a manager who has shown zero signs of what I believe to be the important part of building successful?
If that's what you want to raise, you've put the wrong question in your OP.
 

MuFc_1992

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If that's what you want to raise, you've put the wrong question in your OP.
I've pretty much raised the same points in OP but just questioned why some fans refuse to see them? I mean there are still some fans holding out hope that things will gel after a while and we will start playing better but that to me just seems like wishful thinking so, I'm questioning those people in OP.
 

RedRover

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Great post. I think people are clinging onto the nostalgia aspect.

Winning the league title with ole would be so sweet. Club legend coming back to guide the players and all.

The bitter truth is all the you've mentioned.
Indeed. It's a shame - I genuinely would love him to succeed. His era as a player is probably my favourite as a fan.

I can't understand the mental gymnastics some fans are engaging in to justify sticking with him when there are (in my view, objectively) better managers out there.

Looking back, it's insane that they gave him the job in the first place.
 

shamans

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Indeed. It's a shame - I genuinely would love him to succeed. His era as a player is probably my favourite as a fan.

I can't understand the mental gymnastics some fans are engaging in to justify sticking with him when there are (in my view, objectively) better managers out there.

Looking back, it's insane that they gave him the job in the first place.
The mental gymnastics will continue because on merit they can't really defend him can they. With Ole it's always something intangible or you being a fake fan who doesn't understand the United way.
 

Hansi Fick

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What a stupid question. You start from misrepresenting the argument in a way that turns it into something that is self-evidently self-defeating, and then ask why people are so stupid that they think this. Pointless.

The reality of course is:

People don't think that all managers are equally good. They just think that it's a bit more complicated than "Graham Potter 74" and "Jürgen Klopp 98". Among other things because, as experience attests to, it often happens that managers perform splendidly one season and horribly the next, or are huge successes at one club and then a flop at another. This heavily suggests that a lot more things go into the outcome than your manager having "the right level".

They also think that it's not actually that clear who is an "average manager", and rightly reject the notion that anyone who has not yet provided top results at an elite club never will, because he hasn't proven his "elite level" credentials. They may recall the fact that at some point in the past, exactly the same logic could have been employed with the same validity against Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho or any other manager.

Needless to say, nobody in their right mind think that a club will do well with a manager "who has no plan and no tactical nous". They may however disagree with you that Manchester United currently has a manager with no plan and no tactical nous.

And also needless to say, I think we can safely assume there are few to none United fans who have failed to notice that City and Liverpool play a recognisable brand of football and have had some success with it. They may also have noticed that there are other teams in the world who have also had success, without necessarily doing things in the same way as Klopp or Guardiola, which means that success for United may not be entirely down to finding a replica of Klopp or Guardiola.

So, the answer to your question is: Because, unlike you, they have thought things through sufficiently to at least understand what the questions are.
Great post.
 

Lee565

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It's funny how the ole in fans claim those wanting him out aren't true reds but then they bang on every season about needing to yet again spend another 100 million in the transfer market every summer to potentially challenge for trophies which to me sounds far more like a plastic fan.

I'm fed up that since fergie left we have this mentality of buying superstar players in every position will make up for having a poor manager over seeing the club
 

Plant0x84

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When that so called patience and stability isn’t yielding the expected success and results then continuing down the same road then becomes incompetent and detrimental.
After 7 games, 2pts off the top? Damn incompetent pe teacher and joke club. :rolleyes:
 

Pickle85

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After 7 games, 2pts off the top? Damn incompetent pe teacher and joke club. :rolleyes:
It's not like we've had a tough run...not played any of the rest of the top four yet and have looked poor in many matches. We'll know more at mid season but I'm afraid that I suspect your optimism is misplaced.
 

Hammondo

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I swear Ole fans are just fans for nastalga reasons, of a time when this approach to football worked. It's so far behind now, we look like a caveman club.
 

Ish

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How long before we see Zidane out / Conte Out / Poch out etc on this board? I'm being deadly serious. How much time will our fans give the new guy whenever that day comes? I'm betting not very long.
Not referring to Ole here specifically, but I think our fans are quite patient compared to most big clubs, don’t you think?
 

Bubz27

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Klopp said Woodward approached him and he turned us down prior to joining Liverpool.

Pep sadly was promised to City from very early on. They clearly knew one day he'd be their man as they even brought in the board guys from Barca to make it happen.

But those are the two clubs we can't get managers off. Never ever ever can they either manage us now. So what can be done about it? All we can hope is that both don't fancy living in the UK for much longer because if they do we are in for many more years of torment sadly.

Does look like Pep is going at the end of next season as he's already said he wants another break. Klopp? Who knows.
Sorry I've just seen this.

I was never implying we should go for Pep or Klopp. What I was implying is great managers generally make great teams.
 

glazed

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A good manager will demand a balanced squad and control of the players we buy. The Glazers aren't going to agree to that. We saw how that ends with Jose and how it's turning out with Ole. So did the good managers. So they won't come. All we will get are past their sell by date mercenaries like Jose and LVG or out of their depth mid table types like Moyes and Ole.

To focus on the manager as the problem is to miss the point. It's also exactly what the Glazers want you to do because it means you aren't focusing on them. So the more you blame it on Ole, the more likely they are to keep him in post. It's called lightning conducting in politics.
 

Forevergiggs1

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A good manager will demand a balanced squad and control of the players we buy. The Glazers aren't going to agree to that. We saw how that ends with Jose and how it's turning out with Ole. So did the good managers. So they won't come. All we will get are past their sell by date mercenaries like Jose and LVG or out of their depth mid table types like Moyes and Ole.

To focus on the manager as the problem is to miss the point. It's also exactly what the Glazers want you to do because it means you aren't focusing on them. So the more you blame it on Ole, the more likely they are to keep him in post. It's called lightning conducting in politics.
I've no love for the Glazers but why do you think the biggest problem is with them and not with the idiot who has chosen the last 4 managers? I may be wrong but from the outside it looks like they're a more hands off type of owner than many clubs I could mention.

I can't see many grounds either why you think the managers don't get who they ask for. Mou is an obvious example but the club rightly put their foot down when he wanted to sign Willian/Perisic type players.On Maquire, Mou has already bought Bailly and Lindelof as CBs. Is it a surprise the club didn't want to fork out another 70m on a CB at the time?

I can't understand either why you think Ole hasn't got who he wanted. Look at the class of player that's been brought in for him. If the CM position hasn't been sorted it's on Ole who's had 4 or 5 windows to address the position. It wouldn't surprise me if he thinks the position doesn't need looked at because he does love his McFred.

If I were to guess I'd say the only players brought in under Ole who he hasn't ask for are Cavani and Ronaldo but any manager who couldn't use these players don't deserve to be manager of United anyway.
 

Josep Dowling

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I want a United manager to be someone who deserves to be managing the club. That means you have to have won titles elsewhere. You should have to earn the right to be United manager. Once Mourinho got the sack the board said they would take their time. Ole has a successful two months and suddenly he was hired. Why didn’t they wait until the end of the season to make a decision? What’s even more frustrating is that everything that made him successful and in the initial period he’s moved away from. 4-3-3, Pogba playing CAM.

And let’s be honest United have not hired the right person every single time since Fergie. Moyes should have never got the job. Van Gaal was already past it at the time of his employment and to some degree so was Mourinho.

The club has still not gone for the best manager around that plays high press attacking football. I’m sure that’s what United fans want to see. Simply put when Klopp left Dortmund they should have been straight on the phone persuading him to join us. Same with Pep. Same with Poch. Why are we remaining with a poor performing manager, with no prior success? The football is that bad at the moment, we may as well employ someone like Conte. The football may be boring but at least we would win something.