Why did Ole abandon his vision?

[laughtersassassin]

In my opinion and assessment of Ole is that he is afraid to lose.

And I don't blame him for it but it's a transit that makes him not suitable for the job.

He isn't a risk taker. He like known quantities even if we know those players aren't good enough at the top level

When drawing or losing a match he only tends to do like for like subs as he doesn't like to risk losing

But the simple fact is its better to turn two draws into 1 loss and 1 win so the incentive to risk it is there.

It's a form of self preservation that is understandably hard for him to overcome. Also it doesn't help that he has been given a lot of leeway over the year. Certainly criticised less than an experienced manager would be had they produced the same results.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Another non-existant argument. Why not try to articulate your point? What exactly is a player that can or cannot press and why do we lack those, in your opinion?

He said any team any players can do it, what else do you say to that? He should get in touch with Levy, maybe he can get a tune out of them.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

I reckon the euros and incoherent preseason, followed by another international break soon after zapped a lot of energy out of some players.

Maguire and Shaw promptly picked up injuries.
Telles, Cavani and McTominay have just gotten fit.
Fred, Bruno, Shaw, Sancho, Pogba and Maguire haven’t started the season well.

Only players performing upto their regular standards are Greenwood, Varane, Ronaldo and maybe Matic.

 

[FatTails]

I hate to break it to you guys but 90% of coaches say they want to turn their team into a high pressure/high intensity machine when they arrive. Very few actually manage to do that.

Haha this is so true. Imagine a new manager introducing himself to the fans, in this day and age, with “I’d like to play passive football, give the opposition plenty of time, and drop deep whenever they have the ball”

 

[flappyjay]

Rashford

Besides last season Rashford has always been a high intensity player, he used to do his fair share of pressing. The shoulder injury reduced parts of his game.

 

[Rajma]

Haha this is so true. Imagine a new manager introducing himself to the fans, in this day and age, with “I’d like to play passive football, give the opposition plenty of time, and drop deep whenever they have the ball”

To be fair what’s what Jose wanted us to look like!

 

[FatTails]

To be fair what’s what Jose wanted us to look like!

True, but he had the awareness not to say that out loud. It’s a hard sell for supporters of a big club.

 

[DoomSlayer]

He said any team any players can do it, what else do you say to that? He should get in touch with Levy, maybe he can get a tune out of them.

It's not too far-fetched to suggest that a team full of top level international players can be moulded into a high-pressing team, the notion certainly doesn't deserve to be outrightly dismissed.

And I'd still like to hear how you qualify which players can press or not.

 

[United Hobbit]

Because he doesn't have the management skills to put it into practice, has taken us as far as he can, so is trying to be "safe" which is actually a backwards step as it invites the pressure on

He could really use coaching ball retention the number of times we lose the ball and it invites pressure is infuriating

 

[Skills]

All fart, no shit

 

[Teja]

Agree somewhat, not entirely. Our high turnover numbers from last season were pretty decent. However, if we don't win it high, it's more than likely to result in a proper attack for the opposition, highlighted by not so great PPDA numbers. You can imagine this happening due to Fred's headless chicken way of running and trying to win the ball - which is generally what happens - either he wins it or we need to somehow slow the game down and let them make passes in order for our players to get back in position
https://dataviz.theanalyst.com/season-reviews/2020/

This season, small sample size, but our numbers are slightly better and among top 4, currently rank higher than Chelsea - who tbf played a game with 10 men and have played City as well

That's actually really interesting - thanks. Yeah agree that the PPDA might be skewed if our initial press fails and we need to get back in shape. I wonder if there's something else we can look at to understand that better.

Maybe we should foul more if Fred fails to win it.

Any theories on why City / Pool have very high raw numbers of high turnovers while still having moderate PPDA? In other news, Brighton are the only other club in their league when it comes to forcing turnovers high up the pitch. I really wish we take a punt on Potter even if on a short contract.

I also wish the link above had a wage budget or some other indicator to show over / underperformance.

 

[HoustonRed]

There's the element of truth to 'scared of losing' pov. I bet he wants to succeed here at all costs. As he knows he will go back to Norway if he is out of here. He doesnt have that swagger a top manager has, that says I get things done my way, if not, there will be other clubs lining up for me. Deep down he knows he is lucky to be where he is.
so to the point, he tried to get folks running 90 mins long, but running itslef without a proper setup will just cause fatigue, second half drop in performances and invariably lose the game and in worst cases injuries. So he ditched this plan, and went with half baked press and direct play. Hence the results we see now. Now he can't go back to full on press mid season, and was hoping his star players (read Ronaldo, Bruno, rashford, greenwood) would score somehow.
Basically being out of depth, really.

 

[Mickson]

He said any team any players can do it, what else do you say to that? He should get in touch with Levy, maybe he can get a tune out of them.

You seem to be rather cocky about it. Pressing it's not rocket science, anyone can do it. However, to press as a unit you need a manager who works on it. But to just do the pressing, pretty much any player can do it (well, I would argue that Ronaldo isn't going to do that much, and not Messi either) but those two are special cases.

 

[afatzp]

If we drill into details, high pressing would only work when players left their positions to press as needed and at the same time teammates rotated to fill their positions to ensure the structure still stays compact. That needs TONS of work and drills with the whole team to make it work.

You can see Fred loves to press and can do it all day with his Kante-like stamina , but because his teammates show no awareness to rotate and fill out his position, the typical scene we saw is that Fred left his position to press and got caught with the space he left behind. Then he was the one to blame and called "headless chicken". Now you see Fred probably was instructed to "stay in positions and exposed space", then his best attribute was limited and exposed with his lack of strength, physique and sense of positioning.

To put it in short, our coaching team just did not have the capability to make this happen. Personnel should never be the excuse, Hasenhüttl and Graham Potter can make it happen with much less teams like Southampton and Brighton.

 

[Presto]

I reckon the euros and incoherent preseason, followed by another international break soon after zapped a lot of energy out of some players.

Maguire and Shaw promptly picked up injuries.
Telles, Cavani and McTominay have just gotten fit.
Fred, Bruno, Shaw, Sancho, Pogba and Maguire haven’t started the season well.

Only players performing upto their regular standards are Greenwood, Varane, Ronaldo and maybe Matic.

Bruno scored a hattrick against Leeds whilst Pogba has 7 assist already so I don't think they haven't started the season well. It is just the more and more games they've been playing, they play worse and worse, so does the entire team. Aside from the game against Leeds, we struggled every other game up until now

 

[VeevaVee]

Interesting thread actually. When he first started he was much more gung-ho. You could see he wanted us to play 'the United way'. He even went after more goals when we were up - something that felt completely alien at the time.

Hard to know what's happened. Is it his tactics, or are the players just less responsive to him? Either way, it's probably him.

Perhaps he's been affected by the pressure of having the job full time. Things took a wild turn almost as soon as he was properly hired. It would make sense. The original priority as temp manager was instilling a good feeling amongst the players and the fans and that was it really. There wasn't so much pressure to win.

 

[glazed]

If we drill into details, high pressing would only work when players left their positions to press as needed and at the same time teammates rotated to fill their positions to ensure the structure still stays compact. That needs TONS of work and drills with the whole team to make it work.
.....
To put it in short, our coaching team just did not have the capability to make this happen. Personnel should never be the excuse

It's both the coaching and the players you would have to change. Not gonna happen.

 

[Andrew7582]

The other teams in the premier league already have some of the best fitness coaches and analytics in the world, so what exactly was Ole's plan for making us the fittest team in the league? It's the kind of thing a manager from the 80's or 90's would say, when fitness coaching and data analysis wasn't as advanced as it is now.

 

[Dominos]

We don't have the players to run and press all day long.

Ronaldo isn't gonna press, Pogba isn't gonna press, Rashford isn't gonna press, Greenwood will, Bruno will press but does it ineffectively. I don't know enough about Sancho to know if he is that sort of player. Cavani will but he's a squad player now.

To be one of those elite pressing teams, you have to work extremely hard and work as a unit. We don't do that. There was plenty of occasions on Saturday where an attacker pressed but wasn't helped by a teammate. It achieves feck all.

Firstly, if he wants his teams to press he should sign players that can press. He can't be excused that "this player and this player can't press" when he's the one who signed them.

Secondly, professional athletes can press if they're instructed to and they believe in the authority and ideas of the manager. How can Pep get the likes of David Silva, De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Mahrez, Sterling, Aguero to work hard off the ball but apparently none of our players are capable of it. If Ole had took over City in 2016 there would be people saying that list of City players can't be arsed pressing or they don't have the physical attributes to do so.

 

[croadyman]

Cause he has no vision. Part of me makes me feel we shouldn’t have won that PSG so we could have actually got in someone with a vision of how to play football.

Yeah you do wonder how things might have gone until the end of the season had we not won that game

 

[glazed]

And I'd still like to hear how you qualify which players can press or not.

De Gea is the classic example. He doesn't like to come off his line. He would have to change his game. If he couldn't he would have to be sold. But who would pay his wages? He would just sit there pulling in £400k a week instead. Glazers wouldn't allow that.

I would say Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Ronaoldo, Cavani would all also have to be replaced in a high press team. At least.

So it takes a long time. City did a lot of the ground work in order to persuade Pep to come. It's been a long term restructuring for City, not an overnight transformation.

Chelsea and Tuchel I don't know as much about. Perhaps someone else could comment on how much Lampard laid the foundations for him?

Firstly, if he wants his teams to press he should sign players that can press. He can't be excused that "this player and this player can't press" when he's the one who signed them.

Is he though?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

De Gea is the classic example. He doesn't like to come off his line. He would have to change his game. If he couldn't he would have to be sold. But who would pay his wages? He would just sit there pulling in £400k a week instead. Glazers wouldn't allow that.

I would say Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Ronaoldo, Cavani would all also have to be replaced in a high press team. At least.

So it takes a long time. City did a lot of the ground work in order to persuade Pep to come. It's been a long term restructuring for City, not an overnight transformation.

Chelsea and Tuchel I don't know as much about. Perhaps someone else could comment on how much Lampard laid the foundations for him?



Is he though?

You can't be serious

People on here really think you need years and tons of new players to implement anything.

 

[Dominos]

I would say Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Ronaoldo, Cavani would all also have to be replaced in a high press team. At least.

Honestly...

Before Pep took over at City, would you have said David Silva, De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Mahrez, Sterling, Aguero, Jesus are a set of players that are primed for a high pressing game? Do you think Ole would have got that squad pressing the way Pep did?

 

[Rozay]

How would any of us know?

 

[glazed]

You can't be serious

People on here really think you need years and tons of new players to implement anything.

Ronaldo won't press. That's nailed on.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Ronaldo won't press. That's nailed on.

Ronaldo presents some problems for a high press, but we don't need 3 years and 500 million in players to press effectively.

 

[Grande]

Early into his reign Ole kept banging on us becoming this high intensity team that could run all day long and pressure the opponents in their own half, basically, making us the fittest bunch out there.

At some stage it actually did look as if we were trying to be this high pressing team he promised us we’ll be but instead gradually we have shifted away from this vision. At the moment we certainly don’t like the team that is running others ragged in any way and the pressing is subdued at best.

Can someone explain to me why Ole dropped his own plans? I think everyone would be more patient if he would just stuck with it and followed through.

I’ll try to actually answer your questions with my best call.

1. Solskjær did say the team was undertrained, and he wanted more aggressive pressing. He didn’t say he wanted the most aggressive pressing team in the league, though. Maximum isn’t always better, so that makes sense.

2. The first season, they run a very hard preseason training camp, and running, sprinting and pressing all improved massively from the Mourinho days. The second season, preseason was broken off by covid, and this season he prioritized giving International players three weeks off to getting an intensive preseason. This looks like a gamble, the assumption must be that players are ragged after two seasons of continual play and it will pay off in the latter half of the season. I guess we’ll see.

3. I’ve read several professional football analysts write that the extreme high pressure fotball is likely to be a receding trend, at least for the teams who play 50-60 games a year. Counter-high press tactics have developped, and Liverpool last season showed signs of weakness and tactical change as well. City have the least aggressive pressing in the league, Tottenham has the most. Maybe it’s a shift.

4. We have swapped Danny James for Cristiano Ronaldo. This is actually the weakest argument, I don’t really buy it myself. James has played quite a bit this season, and apart from that there’s not much difference between last season’s players.

I’d rule out the fourth point, but the three first points I think are quite likely affecting the press height and intensity.

 

[glazed]

Ronaldo presents some problems for a high press, but we don't need 3 years and 500 million in players to press effectively.

So Ronaldo and De Gea are out. Who else? I don't see Pogba or Bruno pressing as they can't tackle very well. What do we think?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

So Ronaldo and De Gea are out. Who else? I don't see Pogba or Bruno pressing as they can't tackle very well. What do we think?

Pressing isn't merely about tackling though. Bruno can easily function in a high press.

 

[Greck]

He wants to but when we meet a team that's beating us in possession he figures we use our counter. Problem is a lot of lesser teams are better than us in possession. In fact simply saying a lot is an understatement.

 

[Dominos]

So Ronaldo and De Gea are out. Who else? I don't see Pogba or Bruno pressing as they can't tackle very well. What do we think?

Pep must thank God he was blessed with workhorses and amazing tacklers like David Silva, De Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, Mahrez, Sterling, Aguero and Jesus.

 

[edcunited1878]

"Why did Ole adjust his original tactics?" Because he's not ignorant?

You can spin it a multitude of ways, but the fact of it is, no team presses consistently over and over again. There's a time and place when you want the front players to close down and press, and try to win the ball higher up the pitch and transition up the pitch when the opposition is out of shape.

Klopp's Liverpool doesn't press all over the pitch anymore, which wasn't the case in their first 2 seasons or so. They close down and hunt in packs well, but nothing like they did when he first arrived. Pep's Barcelona was the best at closing down and hunting the ball out of possession in packs. Their shape and spatial awareness off the ball and on the ball was incredible. That's similar to City. Liverpool aren't as compact, but they exploit spaces down the wings, channels, and behind extremely well with deep crosses, long balls, and win a lot of 2nd, 3rd balls that immediately go into space.

I think it's clear that the United squad is fitter than in previous years. Last year was a difficult year due to a compressed season and many midweek/weekend games in consecutive weeks.

 

[Cloud7]

Wanting to achieve something and being able to bring it to fruition are two very different things. I have no doubt that every single manager in world football has a great vision for what they want to see on the field, but only great managers can actually find a way to execute their vision.

 

[Adnan]

Pressing isn't merely about tackling though. Bruno can easily function in a high press.

I agree, Bruno for me is perfectly suited to trigger the press due to him being a high energy player. You don't need to throw yourself into a tackle because that would be pretty silly, as I will try to demonstrate below.

Bruno in his role should shepherd the ball carrier (one of the CBs) towards one of the opposing fullbacks. And when Bruno does this he will trigger the press, where two of his teams mates will converge on the opposing fullback to create a wide pressing trap.

Now let's look at who those two team mates could be and what position they will occupy when Bruno triggers the press. So let's say for example the opposing right back is the target of our pressing trap, then Luke Shaw (LB), Fred(LCM) will converge on the opposing right back to help Bruno trap the opposing Right Back in a 3 pronged wolf pack attack. It could also be done on the opposing side against the opposing Left back, with McTominay and AWB potentially helping Bruno create the same scenario.

But when we call it a high press, it means the two CBs need to come high (on the half way line) to close off the space for a potential out ball to make it effective. And the midfield and fullbacks also need to be pushed deep into opposition territory to position themselves to apply pressure on the opposing fullback. And the side that isn't active, should tuck in and make it even more difficult for the opposition to get out.

I'm also not sure why De Gea is brought up, because for him to become active the opposition will need to evade the pressure which won't be easy to do for a lot of teams IMO. And I'm sure he can stand on the edge of the 18 yard box in the eventuality that there's situation where he will be required to sweep. But that scenario only develops if the outfield players are in sync with one another to first trigger the press, shepherd the ball carrier towards the opposing wide receiver, before springing on him in a co-ordinated manner with the back line pushed high and our non active side tucking in to close off the space for a potential out. We absolutely have the players to press high.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I agree, Bruno for me is perfectly suited to trigger the press due to him being a high energy player. You don't need to throw yourself into a tackle because that would be pretty silly, as I will try to demonstrate below.

Bruno in his role should shepherd the ball carrier (one of the CBs) towards one of the opposing fullbacks. And when Bruno does this he will trigger the press, where two of his teams mates will converge on the opposing fullback to create a wide pressing trap.

Now let's look at who those two team mates could be and what position they will occupy when Bruno triggers the press. So let's say for example the opposing right back is the target of our pressing trap, then Luke Shaw (LB), Fred(LCM) will converge on the opposing right back to help Bruno trap the opposing Right Back in a 3 pronged wolf pack attack. It could also be done on the opposing side against the opposing Left back, with McTominay and AWB potentially helping Bruno create the same scenario.

But when we call it a high press, it means the two CBs need to come high (on the half way line) to close off the space for a potential out ball to make it effective. And the midfield and fullbacks also need to be pushed deep into opposition territory to position themselves to apply pressure on the opposing fullback. And the side that isn't active, should tuck in and make it even more difficult for the opposition to get out.

I'm also not sure why De Gea is brought up, because for him to become active the opposition will need to evade the pressure which won't be easy to do for a lot of teams IMO. And I'm sure he can stand on the edge of the 18 yard box in the eventuality that there's situation where he will be required to sweep. But that scenario only develops if the outfield players are in sync with one another to first trigger the press, shepherd the ball carrier towards the opposing wide receiver, before springing on him in a co-ordinated manner with the back line pushed high and our non active side tucking in to close off the space for a potential out. We absolutely have the players to press high.

Well said. Agree on all accounts.

 

[Adnan]

Well said. Agree on all accounts.

And that's without me using Pogba and Rashford who some seem think can't press. But ideally what would happen would be Bruno would trigger the press and which would put Rashford, Fred and Shaw on alert to spring the 3 pronged wolf pack attack against the opposing Right back which is even more effective due to the surprise element.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

And that's without me using Pogba and Rashford who some seem think can't press. But ideally what would happen would be Bruno would trigger the press and which would put Rashford, Fred and Shaw on alert to spring the 3 pronged wolf pack attack against the opposing Right back which is even more effective due to the surprise element.

Pogba's defensive frailties at times would be less frequent in a high press imo. I think he's not as good when he has to be reactive defensively. That's why I think we can get away with him and Bruno in midfield if we committed to a high press.

Rashford can easily press well. He was working pretty hard off the ball before his niggling injuries started surfacing.

We definitely have the players for it. It's just a matter of implementation.

 

[Adnan]

Pogba's defensive frailties at times would be less frequent in a high press imo. I think he's not as good when he has to be reactive defensively. That's why I think we can get away with him and Bruno in midfield if we committed to a high press.

Rashford can easily press well. He was working pretty hard off the ball before his niggling injuries started surfacing.

We definitely have the players for it. It's just a matter of implementation.

I agree, if our pressing game was coordinated it would mask Pogba's off the ball frailties IMO. I also agree about Rashford, he was always a high energy player coming through the ranks IMO.

 

[hobbers]

Because he overestimated his ability as a coach.

 

[Mr. Christian]

Early into his reign Ole kept banging on us becoming this high intensity team that could run all day long and pressure the opponents in their own half, basically, making us the fittest bunch out there.

At some stage it actually did look as if we were trying to be this high pressing team he promised us we’ll be but instead gradually we have shifted away from this vision. At the moment we certainly don’t like the team that is running others ragged in any way and the pressing is subdued at best.

Can someone explain to me why Ole dropped his own plans? I think everyone would be more patient if he would just stuck with it and followed through.

I think the clear answer to your question is simply confusion.

OSG has always spoken about the fast counter attack, and speed and intensity when in possession.

It is apparent that this continues to be the system in use hence OGS occasional complaints about a lack of intensity when things don’t go right.

This is by far the best Utd team we have seen in a long time. For the first time in a long time a solid defence, and an array of exceptional strikers to choose from.

Everyone expects to see Utd challenging for trophies this season, OGS included.

Have to wait till further in the season before you can seriously start bashing OGS.

As for that high press you’re goin on about..... Right colour, wrong team. I think you’ll find that system operates 40km to the West!