I’m happy with the signing as well. Looking forward to seeing where and how he plays.
Why do we seem to get fleeced so often?
- Thread starter Solius
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
This looks exactly like the sort of deal that happened to other clubs (never us) a couple of years ago and we'd all be thinking 'how did they get him for that much?'
DVB proving that this thread title is a myth.
That sums up how I feel about this signing.
1 transfer does not invalidate the whole premise.
VDB surely?
It’s certainly not 1 transfer though is it.
We didnt get fleeced on DVDB, Bruno, on AWB, on Dan James, on Lindelof, on Bailly, on Shaw, Pogba, Lukaku...
One could argue we only really overpaid on Maguire, and that’s simply down to the fact we HAD to make the transfer to add an essential piece to our back line for the next 5-7 years, from a club in no need to sell. We chose to pay it and he was an essential piece to our 3rd place jigsaw and cup runs, which in turn financially rewards the club massively and justifies the fee.
As the day has progressed I’ve morphed from VB, DVB, VDB and now ive made it to DVDB
Time to close the thread? VdB and Bruno, both excellent deals.
We get fleeced both ways. Not just in buying but mostly in selling.
Primary reason is that we give insane wages to the likes of Lingard, Jones etc. The buying club could've paid 20 million for either. But now they also have to budget their wages, which reduces the transfer fee. Also, these wages add to our desperation to kick these players out but why would they go.
Now giving 120k to Henderson is another decision which can go in this direction. I don't understand why does the wage have to be this high. Why wouldn't he take a 60-70k a week which is more than most first choice keepers in the PL make.
It is such stupid financial decisions that's the reason we pay a United tax.
Primary reason is that we give insane wages to the likes of Lingard, Jones etc. The buying club could've paid 20 million for either. But now they also have to budget their wages, which reduces the transfer fee. Also, these wages add to our desperation to kick these players out but why would they go.
Now giving 120k to Henderson is another decision which can go in this direction. I don't understand why does the wage have to be this high. Why wouldn't he take a 60-70k a week which is more than most first choice keepers in the PL make.
It is such stupid financial decisions that's the reason we pay a United tax.
Err Lukaku!!!!
The reality is sometime we have to pay more, because there’s a shortage of options. The Lukaku/ Morato summer was one example. Both Chelsea and Utd were desperate for strikers, and these were the only two available. Both clubs grossly overpaid for average players.
The only answer to this is to focus on buying players out of contract or out of contract soon, players at the first stage of their promise, or players with genuine criminal/psychopathy issues, and I mean the real stuff, not just married hypocrites with a history of whoring, but nasty types who make straight armed political gestures after scoring in Rome . We have to be shrewd.
Eh? How can you say we got fleeced on Lukaku, when we paid £75m and sold him for £74m?!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49146040
Clearly we overpayed for him. He was £75m with £15m of add ons.
The fact we got them to pay us £60+ million was a minor miracle.
I made this thread and then we got a cracking deal for VdB. You are welcome.
Aberration
Arsenal selling Emi Martinez for 20 odd million is pissing me off. He barely played 10 games last season. Meanwhile we have "established" internationals like Rojo, Lingard and Romero with no offers. Is selling a skill that our board needs to learn?
Martinez is on something like 1m a year in salary so naturally he will be a lot easier to sell than Rojo on 5m net, or whatever he's on. Rojo and Romero have suffered from injuries and poor fitness for a long time and Lingard has legitimately been one of the worst players in the division for some time now.
Martinez run of form since Leno was injured is above and beyond anything any of those players ever showed for us, with perhaps the exception of Lingard's one great 6 month spell that one season...
But Chelsea, Arsenal, City and Tottenham also have serious issue when trying to sell players, especially now that corona has bankrupted half of Europe's clubs.
Chelsea have about 10-12 actual dead weight players (Drinkwater, Bakayoko, Zappacosta, Arrizabalaga, Moses, Musonda, McEachran, Baker, Baba Rahman etc etc) all on insane wages, making them impossible to sell. Arsenal have like 10 central defenders and can't even give away players like Mustafi, Sokratis, Özil, Kolasinac, Guendouzi. Tottenham are desperately trying to offload Rose, Aurier, Carter Vickers, Foyth but actually managed to sell (albeit at a large loss) their deadwood in recent season because they pay their players peanuts. However, that's resulted in their squad suffering quality wise.
It's the drawback that comes with the incredibly high wages PL clubs can offer. It's hard to offload past it, unwanted players.
But let's not forget that we actually got 70m or so for Lukaku just last year, Blind two years ago for 15m and Johnstone - far inferior to Martinez - for 6 (!!) mil.
We keep acting and accepting we are the biggest club in the world when we are not.
That has its benefits and its negatives.
We can attract players even when we are down but the prices are all over the place.
That has its benefits and its negatives.
We can attract players even when we are down but the prices are all over the place.
So it actually comes to the point that we pay insane wages to players who don't deserve it. Its not like we fought off the world or had high demand for Lingard, Rojo or Romero.
The wage structure for mediocre players is incredibly foolish for a club of our size. I can understand that we're not in Fergie years where there's a pull with maximum players in the world and we might have to use the high wage incentive for players where we're competing with equivalent clubs.
But even if we ignore the past, the wages given to Henderson, Williams are way too high for players who, at least at the moment, are lucky to be at United than the other way around. We're paying wages as if they've already achieved their potential. For Henderson to be on a higher wage than Allisson is ridiculous and the person who made this decision needs to be called out on this.
VDB's price was fixed a long time before we came knocking. Ajax did the same with De Ligt, they set a fixed realistic price, they offered no bidding war, just the players right to choose his own club. That being said, I think I made a post early in this thread dismissing the notion that we're getting fleeced in the transfer market.
There were a couple of years when Woody and co were completely clueless but things have fully stabilized.
We are not getting fleeced, not doing a Levy and driving hard bargains and missing out on transfers, but not bad either.
How much more evidence do the "woody is a clown" folks need.
Last few transfers:
Donnie - check
Bruno - check
AWB - check (the "great" Marina at Chelsea got Chilwell for the exact same fee in a covid market; 45m rising to 50m)
James - check
Maguire - questionable
The same muppets also want us to cave in to BvB and pay a guaranteed 108m for Sancho.
We are not getting fleeced, not doing a Levy and driving hard bargains and missing out on transfers, but not bad either.
How much more evidence do the "woody is a clown" folks need.
Last few transfers:
Donnie - check
Bruno - check
AWB - check (the "great" Marina at Chelsea got Chilwell for the exact same fee in a covid market; 45m rising to 50m)
James - check
Maguire - questionable
The same muppets also want us to cave in to BvB and pay a guaranteed 108m for Sancho.
We just go for overly obvious players where they are obviously going to bump up the price, especially where we show no willingness to look at alternatives. Look at Sancho. Linked for years with him, and we don't sign anyone to be an alternative. Last summer we spent 45m on Wan Bissaka but didn't really look at anyone else. Maguire especially, for 2 summers we knew we needed a CB yet only had eyes on Maguire and spent 80m on him in the end.
Van de Beek was a nice change getting him instead of Grealish. We have to look outside the premier league to find real value. Reguilon possible for 20m, but you see Chilwell go for 50m. Tagliafico or Telles would be possible for a good 20m less than Chilwell as well. Just gotta be a bit creative with options and smart.
Van de Beek was a nice change getting him instead of Grealish. We have to look outside the premier league to find real value. Reguilon possible for 20m, but you see Chilwell go for 50m. Tagliafico or Telles would be possible for a good 20m less than Chilwell as well. Just gotta be a bit creative with options and smart.
WHAT? REALLY?!
Did any of you know this?
(Insert gif of muppet versions of Judge and Woodward doing the tango.)
Quoting after 2 months?
No idea who this leading European agent is speaking to at United. But he’s obviously not speaking directly to Woodward. As we’d established he’s obviously been working in football long enough at this stage to be considered a “football person”.
Out of interest who is this agent and what are their credentials? Are they a football person?
Woodward isn't a football person, no-one in the running of Utd is.Quoting after 2 months?
No idea who this leading European agent is speaking to at United. But he’s obviously not speaking directly to Woodward. As we’d established he’s obviously been working in football long enough at this stage to be considered a “football person”.
Out of interest who is this agent and what are their credentials? Are they a football person?
Only an utter moron would suggest otherwise.
They're quite clearly seen as what they are - bankers and money people who are ruining an historic footballing institution by trying to make decisions about footballing matters that they're not equipped to make.
You're obviously doubling down due to ego / pride etc but the reality is blatantly obvious to everyone in football - including fans of both Utd and other clubs.
Negotiators smell blood during a negotiation. When you’re unorganized with no plan, you bleed constantly. It’s taking candy from a child
Why would an agent need to talk to football people, other than manager, at the Club? To discuss who's better, Messi or Ronaldo? Ronaldo is the correct answer.
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Rich clubs are very often going to get “fleeced” buying established talent. Pay a giant premium for “proven” success and then if there are enough variables that are different from the set up at their previous club, then they may not hit the same heights, it’s fine margins. Transfer fees rarely factor in the very tangible downside risk (other than maybe injury records).
The key to avoid it is probably buying more raw and coaching. In other words being the Leicester bringing in Maguire and Maddison on 20 mill each instead of the United paying 4 times that once one of them has established they can do the job at a good level. Then them getting shoved onto the left hand side by default and a random incident in Greece and next thing you know you’ve been “fleeced“.
Obviously relies on top scouting and an element of hit and miss though (see: Dan James). But also the expectation at a club like United is very different from Leicester, so they can’t afford to have as many Dan James type signings over a short time period. Leicester could probably ride it out.
But yeah on the selling front, the point about wage structure is spot on. How are the likes of Lingard and Jones winding up on six figures a week? Sure if they hit top form and it looks like the rule rather than just an exception and clubs start sniffing around then chuck a mega deal at them, but none of that ever happened for them, except of course the mega deal. Agents must just waltz into a room with Woodward and co and have them over a barrel in seconds.
The Henderson example really does seem like the next iteration of that, although appreciate it’s a bit different with keepers sat on the bench.
The key to avoid it is probably buying more raw and coaching. In other words being the Leicester bringing in Maguire and Maddison on 20 mill each instead of the United paying 4 times that once one of them has established they can do the job at a good level. Then them getting shoved onto the left hand side by default and a random incident in Greece and next thing you know you’ve been “fleeced“.
Obviously relies on top scouting and an element of hit and miss though (see: Dan James). But also the expectation at a club like United is very different from Leicester, so they can’t afford to have as many Dan James type signings over a short time period. Leicester could probably ride it out.
But yeah on the selling front, the point about wage structure is spot on. How are the likes of Lingard and Jones winding up on six figures a week? Sure if they hit top form and it looks like the rule rather than just an exception and clubs start sniffing around then chuck a mega deal at them, but none of that ever happened for them, except of course the mega deal. Agents must just waltz into a room with Woodward and co and have them over a barrel in seconds.
The Henderson example really does seem like the next iteration of that, although appreciate it’s a bit different with keepers sat on the bench.
Not only do we overpay for players we also :
- Give exorbitant wages to our players, and often tie deadwood players to long contracts, while failing to give other player contracts and losing them on free.
- Fail to sell deadwood we have.
- Try to drive a bargain, and fail to acquire targets, and ALSO failing to get alternative targets(which is the biggest problem).
We are an absolute joke in the transfer market, everybody knows it. Time to get a DOF, a specialist who is adept at negotiation/planning.
- Give exorbitant wages to our players, and often tie deadwood players to long contracts, while failing to give other player contracts and losing them on free.
- Fail to sell deadwood we have.
- Try to drive a bargain, and fail to acquire targets, and ALSO failing to get alternative targets(which is the biggest problem).
We are an absolute joke in the transfer market, everybody knows it. Time to get a DOF, a specialist who is adept at negotiation/planning.
Thats rich coming from someone who remembered about this conversation from 2 months ago and felt the need to quote me again based on well nothing much.
You never answered my question by the way doing so might strengthen whatever point it is you are trying to make. Just who is this agent who we are meant to believe is a football person? Did they ever play/coach/manage within the game professionally?
I've also made no positive claims with regards to Woodwards competence, in fact i've suggested many times he likely isn't very good at his job. But he's been in football for 15 years, contrary to your snide moron remark how could anyone suggest he's not a football person at this stage whatever the feck that actually means.
Can you explain what a football person actually is? David Moyes isn't very good either is he a football person? Its utter nonsense, what you really mean is you think Woodward’s rubbish at his job, which is fair enough so just say that.
What other industry could someone work in for a decade and a half and someone suggest similar. If Woodward worked in Hollywood for 15 years would he not be a ''Movie person'' either. Jesus.
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They don't i cant imagine a scenario where an agent would need a chat with Charlton or Ferguson to discuss football with football people.
I would really like to know the identity of this agent who seems to think he is a football person is.
Because we're a shitty run club from a Sporting perspective. We also have published accounts every year for the other clubs to analyse how much money we can be mugged of.
I read that only Conte is on huge salary in Italy. Second one (Fonseca) is on 2,5mil. Pirlo in one of biggest clubs in the world is on 2 mil for example. We gave Ole 8 mil despite him being on one mil in Molde. Like he would not come for 1 mil. It is 7 mil lost per season, 14 mil lost so far.
One more example how we are throwing money away. Instead offering contract in terms of market, we go in a way "We are Man Utd, you must be payed according our reputation, not yours". Same goes for our players. Nearly every player has wage which doesn't represent his true value (McT, Williams are on 60k per weak ffs, Lingard and Jones 80k etc..)
One more example how we are throwing money away. Instead offering contract in terms of market, we go in a way "We are Man Utd, you must be payed according our reputation, not yours". Same goes for our players. Nearly every player has wage which doesn't represent his true value (McT, Williams are on 60k per weak ffs, Lingard and Jones 80k etc..)
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Agents are player representatives, so they definitely would talk about football matters.
Playing time, position, promises, etc are all things that they would no doubt want to discuss with someone who can give them appropriate answers. Especially agents which have a close relationship with the players, which nowadays would be all agents.
I would imagine thats where the players having a discussion/phone call with their prospective new manager thats regularly mentioned in these transfer stories comes into play.
There would be little point in getting assurances about things like position or playing time from anyone other than a clubs manager.