Why don't we win penalties anymore?

AFC NimbleThumb

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We also equaled the record of highest PL penalties gained in a season.

More than enough games left to exceed.
It’s a record that needs breaking!

Crystal Palace the current [joint] holders & we can’t be having that.

Jose really is a gobsh*te, thank god we’re rid.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Any theories on why we're getting so many this season compare to before?

In my opinion,
  1. VAR helps.
  2. Addition of James especially and Bruno. Those two are direct into the box types. Also Greenwood.
  3. Martial at CF, he is a more skillful and tricky player good at nick-neat interlink passes = better chance to get pens.
  4. McTominator making more runnings into box. McT have "malicia" football skill.
Couple those with what we already have, eg. Rash at LW, Pogba attacking, etc.

---

MEN also gave their opinion here --> (link)
 
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Denis' cuff

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Funny that Liverpool never got this “publicity “ being penalty kings for over 20 years

it’ll all change as soon as we’re challenging and we’ll be back to 4 pens per season
 

adam118

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Listed the penalties here, seems like rival fans are struggling to accept the amount of penalties we have had. Only the Villa one was unfair in my opinion, there were a few I was on the fence

 

MadDogg

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Listed the penalties here, seems like rival fans are struggling to accept the amount of penalties we have had. Only the Villa one was unfair in my opinion, there were a few I was on the fence

There was one other penalty that was debatable earlier in the season. Can't remember which one or which competition it was in, but I've remembered it because I've been telling people that we've only had one debatable penalty all season (two now obviously). All the other penalties have been fairly obviously correct.
 

Sandikan

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Getting a lot of penalties happens when you attack a lot, have a lot of the ball, stretch players and have players with pace and tight control.

It's a superb sign of our improvement, as bitterness aside, there's a reason City and Liverpool have had so many in recent seasons.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Loving the attention of penalties we're getting.

:lol: I mean there's VAR to shot down rubbish excuses of ref favoritism or even divings/cheatings.

So that only meant our attacking is just too good and too much that defenders had to or mistakenly brought players down.
 
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van Persie

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Anyone with absolutely any understanding of football, looking at our players would understand why we pull a few. That or just fecking watch the situations/matches rather than statistics.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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It is crazy that we are so good at getting them. It is not by diving or cheating eather. I think Pogbas vs Spurs is helped by a theatrical fall and James fall easy at times. Although it is still a pen and most of James have been too.
 

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I'd like to see out amount of time in the opposition's final thirds vs the number of pens. Of course you're going to be awarded more penalties if you're camped out in the opponents final third as we often have been lately
 

rcoobc

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It is crazy that we are so good at getting them. It is not by diving or cheating eather. I think Pogbas vs Spurs is helped by a theatrical fall and James fall easy at times. Although it is still a pen and most of James have been too.
If you've got players running into the box from all directions, making players do things they dont want to do, you're going to get a few!

If you zombie pass it, you're probably not
 

Anustart89

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There was one other penalty that was debatable earlier in the season. Can't remember which one or which competition it was in, but I've remembered it because I've been telling people that we've only had one debatable penalty all season (two now obviously). All the other penalties have been fairly obviously correct.
Probably the one on James v Norwich which was let go by the referee but given by VAR. It didn't really pass my "clear and obvious" eye test, but it came the weekend right after a series of calls that were not overturned, and public outcry over the VAR threshold, and where they seemed to lower the bar to overturn calls for a few weeks (in multiple games). I'd say that's one that shouldn't have been overturned whichever way the ref called it, so that probably shouldn't have been given by VAR.

  1. VAR helps.
  2. Addition of James especially and Bruno. Those two are direct into the box types. Also Greenwood.
  3. Martial at CF, he is a more skillful and tricky player good at nick-neat interlink passes = better chance to get pens.
  4. McTominator making more runnings into box. McT have "malicia" football skill.
Couple those with what we already have, eg. Rash at LW, Pogba attacking, etc.

---

MEN also gave their opinion here --> (link)
I think that VAR overturning a few obvious mistakes shows what we've been thinking for a few years, illustrated by this thread's existence, ie that refs find it easy to deny us calls because there's little outcry from media and our managers and players have been too nice for a number of years. Just look at the Bruno penalty against Villa where that penalty almost launched a national crisis versus Wolves penalty which is also a failed roulette spin that leads to contact where everyone's in agreement that it's clumsy and a nailed on pen. The only difference is where the attacker's foot ends up, but otherwise very similar.

I generally agree with the MENs assessment, but I'd call the Norwich one a soft overturn as I think the ref's call on the pitch (whichever way he'd blown) should've stood as it could've gone either way and was not clear and obvious in any direction, but as I mentioned above, it came during a period where public outcry seemed to lower the bar for VAR interventions.

It would've been interesting to see how many more we could've had in situations where the ref hasn't given anything and VAR has not intervened. I bet there are quite a few penalties and other decisions there that could've been given, not least the Martial penalty v Palace and Gary Cahill not being red carded for an obvious denial of obvious goalscoring opportunity.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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If you've got players running into the box from all directions, making players do things they dont want to do, you're going to get a few!

If you zombie pass it, you're probably not
Still City attack a lot, but has less than us. Same with Liverpool. You would think that guys like De bruyne, Sterling, Mahrez, Salah, Mane, Firmino would be good at getting them too.
 

MadDogg

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Probably the one on James v Norwich which was let go by the referee but given by VAR. It didn't really pass my "clear and obvious" eye test, but it came the weekend right after a series of calls that were not overturned, and public outcry over the VAR threshold, and where they seemed to lower the bar to overturn calls for a few weeks (in multiple games). I'd say that's one that shouldn't have been overturned whichever way the ref called it, so that probably shouldn't have been given by VAR.
Yep, that looks like the one. James is the one who made the contact there so shouldn't have been a penalty.

I checked out the other 'harsh' ones in the image that adam118 posted, and they were penalties in my book. Just the James vs Norwich (dive) and now the Bruno vs Villa (not a dive but also not a penalty) decisions were wrong. Every other penalty we've had this season has been right.
 
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Samid

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Over a month since our last penalty. 8 games. Pretty damning. Klopp's rant has had a significant effect on the refs. How do we reverse this horrible trend?
 

Amar__

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Over a month since our last penalty. 8 games. Pretty damning. Klopp's rant has had a significant effect on the refs. How do we reverse this horrible trend?
By sitting on the stands and not reacting at all and watching our tablet while we are being denied stonewall penalty?
 

diarm

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Over a month since our last penalty. 8 games. Pretty damning. Klopp's rant has had a significant effect on the refs. How do we reverse this horrible trend?
Not just penalties either. We've had 2 good goals ruled out and one bad goal given against us since that rant as well. Klopp knew what he was doing and Ole should really have called him out on it immediately. I love Ole but he has a tendency to be too nice at times and on this occasion he allowed Klopp influence refs against us.
 

90 + 5min

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Over a month since our last penalty. 8 games. Pretty damning. Klopp's rant has had a significant effect on the refs. How do we reverse this horrible trend?
It is not about situations. It is about referees looking the other way just so nobody can say they are pro ManUtd.
 

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It's definitely an aspect we need to improve on and try to bring back to our standards earlier in the season. We're spending too much time 'building' up our attacking play and not enough time in the opposition box in recent games.

Compare the heat maps of our attackers against Villa (last time we won a penalty) and Sheffield United last week:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...eague-2020-2021-Manchester-United-Aston-Villa

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...-2020-2021-Manchester-United-Sheffield-United

We barely got into the Sheffield United box. Hard to win a penalty if you're not even playing it inside their box.

We need to go more direct and get our attackers running at defenders again. I believe that's what Ole said he wanted to do when he first joined. It's also no coincidence that the downturn in form of our attacking players has seen us win less penalties. Got a feeling we're due one tonight!
 

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Would be interesting to see if there’s anything in it. Any stonewall pens we’ve been denied? The VAR feck ups in the SHU match is obviously front of mind.

Has our touches in the oppo box gone down, as our form has dropped as well? Could well be something to do with our front trio being horribly out of form as well. Don’t have the stats but iirc, Martial & Rashford won a good percentage of our penalties and with their drop in form....

And then there definitely is the Klopp effect. Just not sure how major that’s been. But these 50/50’s are now all of a sudden being given against us as well.
 

He'sRaldo

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Ever since that shocking Martial dive, we haven't had a sniff from the refs.
 

BusbyMalone

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Has there actually been any incidents where we should have had one given, but it wasn't?
 

Manoucha09

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Would be interesting to see if there’s anything in it. Any stonewall pens we’ve been denied? The VAR feck ups in the SHU match is obviously front of mind.

Has our touches in the oppo box gone down, as our form has dropped as well? Could well be something to do with our front trio being horribly out of form as well. Don’t have the stats but iirc, Martial & Rashford won a good percentage of our penalties and with their drop in form....

And then there definitely is the Klopp effect. Just not sure how major that’s been. But these 50/50’s are now all of a sudden being given against us as well.
Yeah Klopp's words have probably been ringing in the ears of refs, but tbf we haven't really had any stonewall claims turned down recently. We're just not getting into the opposition box enough imo. The closest we've come would probably be Fred's against Fulham.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ier-League-2020-2021-Fulham-Manchester-United

Probably the most we've been in the opposition box in the past few weeks too.
 

2mufc0

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Not just penalties either. We've had 2 good goals ruled out and one bad goal given against us since that rant as well. Klopp knew what he was doing and Ole should really have called him out on it immediately. I love Ole but he has a tendency to be too nice at times and on this occasion he allowed Klopp influence refs against us.
Yeah agree with this, Ole needs to up his game in terms of the physiological warfare of management.
 

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Over a month since our last penalty. 8 games. Pretty damning. Klopp's rant has had a significant effect on the refs. How do we reverse this horrible trend?
I think its just as much about a) opposition defenders wising up /being a bit smarter and b) our forwards being poor then the refs.

There hasn't really been any pen incidents we should have had bar Fred vs Fulham, and that wasn't exactly stonewall.
 

RedDevil@84

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Over a month since our last penalty. 8 games. Pretty damning. Klopp's rant has had a significant effect on the refs. How do we reverse this horrible trend?
Our attackers have turned to s**t and stopped going into the box more often. Martial is strolling. Rashford is trying to dribble 4 players before getting into the box. Bruno's form has dropped. Pogba also is mostly outside the box.
 

Shane88

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Shocking how referee's have been influenced by a rival managers comments.
They wouldn't be influenced if we were cnuts about it.

Give something dodgy against City or Liverpool and you'll have Klopp and Guardiola screaming bloody murder at you from the touchline. Give something dodgy against United and you'll have Solskjaer sitting on the bench, legs crossed, tutting. Not exactly intimidating. On the pitch, you'll have Henderson and Robertson constantly chipping at the ref. At United, you'll have poor little De Gea shrugging his shoulders when he's fouled. Bunch of soft quiet shites.

If you think this type of stuff doesn't matter, you're wrong. Everything matters. Never ever make it easy for a ref.
 

RedDevil@84

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Shocking how referee's have been influenced by a rival managers comments.
There is nothing shocking about it. Referees are humans and can be influenced.
Refs for many years would not give a penalty until they see a hard fall. Which means they just encourage players to dive when fouled.
 

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It's either the law of averages or Klopp.
 

Teja

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It looks like manager mindgames with VAR is going to be a thing. Klopp moaned about it a bit and probably influenced the minds of the officials .. I think Ole's comments last week were a bit of a counter pressure.

I guess we like to think referees are impartial robots that analyze each incident on its own merit, but the broader football narrative creeps into their minds and I think creates bias.
 

Ish

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Yeah Klopp's words have probably been ringing in the ears of refs, but tbf we haven't really had any stonewall claims turned down recently. We're just not getting into the opposition box enough imo. The closest we've come would probably be Fred's against Fulham.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ier-League-2020-2021-Fulham-Manchester-United

Probably the most we've been in the opposition box in the past few weeks too.
Yeah I think the 50/50’s are going against us but I don’t seem to recall many stonewalls, like you correctly say. And a big part is due to our drop in performance - especially the attackers.
 

Teja

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It's definitely an aspect we need to improve on and try to bring back to our standards earlier in the season. We're spending too much time 'building' up our attacking play and not enough time in the opposition box in recent games.

Compare the heat maps of our attackers against Villa (last time we won a penalty) and Sheffield United last week:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...eague-2020-2021-Manchester-United-Aston-Villa

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...-2020-2021-Manchester-United-Sheffield-United

We barely got into the Sheffield United box. Hard to win a penalty if you're not even playing it inside their box.

We need to go more direct and get our attackers running at defenders again. I believe that's what Ole said he wanted to do when he first joined. It's also no coincidence that the downturn in form of our attacking players has seen us win less penalties. Got a feeling we're due one tonight!
Thanks for those links, these are super interesting. I'm trying to figure out how to parse that .. if I select "Dribbles" (which I assume is what you mean when you say get our attackers running at defences again), it looks like we've had more of those and at higher success rate in the game against SHU than against AVL.

One thing I'd add though is that SHU is a bad data point because we had such a terrible game against them. They blocked off the center and forced our attacks down wide and we don't really have a lot of players who can make things happen 1v1 from wide areas and we struggled. I think the 5 at the back played into it as well because leaving our fullbacks semi-open (which is a common weakness of the 5-3-2 / 3-4-3 type formations) is not going to do a lot of damage. Normally Bruno makes things happen against sides that do this but even he was pretty shit that game, so we had nothing going on. AWB got a couple of interesting crosses in as well, which kind of highlights my point that the creativity was coming from our fullbacks more than anything.