Why I don't think we should sack Solskjaer...now

soapythecat

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If your coaches have no experience in winning, then the squad will follow suit. Ole does very little on the training ground by all accounts (could be BS, but not uncommon for managers), which leaves a really poor coaching staff to produce what we are seeing.
If every player is not showing signs of improvement and results are declining then you have to look at coaching.
 

Yakuza_devils

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All opposition fans and their dogs know that Ole is a fecking joke and we are now the biggest laughing stock in football. Yet some of the fans are still hesitating to sack Ole. It's embarrassing that we have fallen so far even Arsenal and Spurs show more ambition than us.
 

Massive Spanner

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He did because Jose had completely lost the dressing room and it seems everyone had a point to prove. There is so much shite here to fix that its completely unreasonable to expect anyone to just come in and turn us into a good/decent side with the snap of a finger

Its also worth remembering that the squad is still mediocre/poor in many areas and i think no amount of coaching is going to turn Fred and Pereira into decent midfielders

Maybe i am being pessimistic here, but if a new manager came in now and got tasked with cleaning up this mess he would burn through a lot of goodwill really fast and start the next season with the threat of sacking looming over him right from the start. If we end up sacking him as well we are dangerously close to turning into AC Milan
But that isn't what I said? I said it's not unreasonable to expect a good manager to come in and at least somewhat improve us, which was in response to you saying expectations on them would be too high, which simply is not true because expectations right now are so low. Even if a manager came in and showed any sort of improvement in results and style of play whatsoever, I'm sure fans would be satisfied.

And most importantly, as I said, it gives that new manager extra time to assess the squad and identify what they need in the summer, which you seem to be completely ignoring, which is bizarre because to me, that seems like an enormous benefit to getting someone in right now.

There is no tangible downside to getting in a new, full time, better manager than Ole right now, at all. If you think there is I suspect that's purely because you are so desperate to cling on to any hope of Ole making it here that you're trying to make up excuses for yourself to give him more time to turn it around.
 

ghagua

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A long post justifying why Ole shouldn't be sacked.

Here's a short post on why he should.....

27.3% win rate since being given the permanent job. And the sample size of games is large enough to make that decision.

I can see Ole getting fired if we lose to Spurs
Top post!. We should not sack Ole because.........., but we are fine watching the team drop into the relegation zone. I do believe we may put up a good fight against Spurs and City, but the consequences of losing both will be there for everyone to see when they look up the standings. Apart from a few managers, everyone gets sacked at least once in their career, but that should stop us from pursuing Poch or even Rogers because they got the sack before.
 

b82REZ

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Every reputable journalist is saying the same. Despite poor results, the club are satisfied that Ole is working towards a long term plan that will take time to put in place. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's obvious that he's not going to be sacked if we finish mid table this season.
No its not, that's just your opinion. And citing the journalists as reason he won't be sacked is silly. Also I am yet to a decent explanation of this fabled plan we keep hearing about.

He has gotten an easy ride in the media so far but the tide is turning. I've heard a few dissenting voices recently. Gary Neville does not represent the whole of football journalism.

If he isn't sacked for finishing mid table Woodward has managed to completely lower the standards and we will not be back challenging for anything for a long time. Thankfully Woodward at least seems to recognise mid table obscurity is not acceptable and has sacked all previous managers that have had us in that position come May.

I cant stand the man but at least in the past he has been ruthless with managers (mainly with van Gaal) and now his number 1 target is unemployed he'll want to get him in before he ends up in Spain or Munich. He'll be even more incentivised if Jose continues to improve Spurs.
 

Ikon

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The huge advantage to sacking Ole now is there is a viable candidate waiting in the wings in Poch. Wait till summer and there might not be anyone decent.
I may be wrong, I don't know Poch personally, but I would have thought he will want to take the rest of the season away from football, recharge his batteries, and then carefully consider all the options open to him over the Summer..
 

saivet

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I'd support sacking him if we could get a competent temporary manager until the end of the season, someone like Wenger, while doing proper research into finding the right man to take us forward in the summer.

Give me 6 months of Wenger any day over Ole. I think he could get more out of our players. Don't buy in Jan, just write the season off & back the new man in July.
Would you trust the club though?

That was essentially the plan, plus hiring a DOF when Jose was sacked.
 

Cassidy

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I may be wrong, I don't know Poch personally, but I would have thought he will want to take the rest of the season away from football, recharge his batteries, and then carefully consider all the options open to him over the Summer..
He may want that but Ed can remind him that he already missed the opportunity once
 

Bilbo

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I must admit I'm wavering today, though just a little, and I've defended him all along. I believe in this project, I'm incredibly patient and I still strongly believe that no manager is going to produce consistent performances with the players that we have had available. I think its because I just want to see us win football matches, and I'm disappointed that we aren't

We need to add two good players in January, and if we don't I'll start to question the ambition of this club.
 

Kush

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There is no tangible downside to getting in a new, full time, better manager than Ole right now, at all. If you think there is I suspect that's purely because you are so desperate to cling on to any hope of Ole making it here that you're trying to make up excuses for yourself to give him more time to turn it around.
This is pretty much it, just conjuring new excuses to justify a shitty job Ole is doing.
 

Forevergiggs1

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I think if Pochettino or Nagelsmann are available at this moment then it really makes no sense to keep him. We'd be giving him a transfer window to buy players instead of them. They'd be able to spend the rest of this season assessing the squad instead of having to come in in the summer and do it then.

it really makes no sense to keep him unless no manager that the club want is available, and seeing as we know Woodward wanted Pochettino before, you'd hope it's only because he's not available til the summer that we're not pulling the plug.
Unless he has a clause in his p45 saying he can't coach until the end of the season then I think the only thing holding him back would be the £12m he would lose if he signs for another club. If we were that serious about him then the club should pay him the 12m and get him in just in case he has other offers before the summer.

Maybe we're taking it for granted that Poch actually wants to come to us but if he did the start of January would be soon enough. Give him 6 weeks to recharge the batteries and time for him to evaluate players he might think would improve us when the window opens.
 

NinjaZombie

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A long post justifying why Ole shouldn't be sacked.

Here's a short post on why he should.....

27.3% win rate since being given the permanent job. And the sample size of games is large enough to make that decision.

I can see Ole getting fired if we lose to Spurs
I don't see how we can avoid losing to a resurgent and motivated Jose Mourinho side.
 

lsd

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A long post justifying why Ole shouldn't be sacked.

Here's a short post on why he should.....

27.3% win rate since being given the permanent job. And the sample size of games is large enough to make that decision.

I can see Ole getting fired if we lose to Spurs

You can't just take a win rate from the point where it suits your narrative
 

dev1l

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A long post justifying why Ole shouldn't be sacked.

Here's a short post on why he should.....

27.3% win rate since being given the permanent job. And the sample size of games is large enough to make that decision.

I can see Ole getting fired if we lose to Spurs
Usual playing with numbers (quoting a bald cnut looking for clicks)

How sad this forum has become
 

Chesterlestreet

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Caretaker till the end of the season, DOF by the start of summer who appoints a head coach in the summer.
It's what we should have aimed for the moment Jose was done for. Didn't happen, though, and might not happen this time either.

EDIT We shouldn't wait till summer before bringing in a DOF, it should be sorted as soon as possible. If we had one in place, he'd be busy as we speak looking into what should be done come summer.
 
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devilish

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I am not necessarily disagree with OP as he might have a valid point about transfers however here's my 2 cents about what he said

A- Tactics are shit. Look I get it, our squad is shit and we're probably won't win anything for a long time. HOWEVER, a decent manager isn't constantly outwitted game after game. Even with this squad he would be able to show up against teams such as Newcastle, West Ham, Sheffield United and Aston Villa and not look silly.

B- No quality managers in January. Well, there's 3 managers I can think off who would move to United in January. Pochs, Allegri and Rangnick. We might even persuade Ancelotti or the Ajax guy to move as well. With all due respect those are top quality managers, way better to the Molde guy. Also we won't be getting any managers better then these guys especially if we end up at mid table with no European games to play for next season and with Pogba wanting out.

C- Pochs had never built a quality side. Well most managers haven't done so. Ole might have done that at Molde because its a amateur club in an amateur league were even a Lingard would look like Cristiano Ronaldo there. That's why we need a DOF. Hopefully the guy we bring in has the necessary experience and reputation to persuade Woodward to take that route. Ole has failed on that as well. Pochs had hit beyond his weight at both Spurs and Southampton, same as Allegri did. Both have experiences of working at top leagues and had managed clubs whose squad wasn't exactly perfect. That's the maximum you can ask for a manager these days

D- As said the transfer thing is indeed a concern HOWEVER
- We have no clue if Ole is going to buy players in January. Early excuses are already out and there's rumours we're going to limit ourselves to just loans
- Its pointless to give money to a dead man walking
- A top manager would analyse the done deals made by the previous manager and if they are good enough he should give his go ahead

We still have a chance to make it to the CL through the Europa league. Let's give it our go by hiring a manager who actually understand tactics and who might bring in people who truly understand how to keep players fit and away from injury.
 
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Skills

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It's what we should have aimed for the moment Jose was done for. Didn't happen, though, and might not happen this time either.
They got caught up in the idea of Ole being the manager and blew their load.

I do think they genuinely tried, to hire a DOF but by then the criteria had changed to one who would 'work with Ole' rather than manage the head coach.

I can't see many sporting directors interested in a structure, where the head coach isn't his subordinate.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I can't see many sporting directors interested in a structure, where the head coach isn't his subordinate.
Agreed. The basic model has to be ditched. The idea of a more or less or less traditional British style manager working alongside a DOF sounds like a pipe dream. The latter should call the shots, ultimately - the former should be a "head coach" (as Jose sarcastically referred to himself as). The young, up-and-coming managers many would like us to target are all used to working within such a structure. They certainly are not used to anything like the current United model.
 

gza the genius

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I mostly feel the same way but I guess my only counterpoint would be - although it seems Ole is eyeing the right players do we really want him making the decisions about who to bring in in January if he’s most definitely going to be gone at the end of the season?

Bring Poch in ASAP and give him a month to work with the squad and see what he needs and evaluate the scouting / targets we’re already eyeing to see if they align with what he wants.

Honestly the only real reason I’d want to keep Ole for now is because I’m afraid if we get in Poch or whoever else Woodward and the Glazers will ruin any chance of success they have anyway. Pretty depressing state here currently when the best reasoning for not sacking someone with such a terrible record is “what’s the point”.
 

Foritfied

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Spurs sacking Pochettino and picking up Mourinho is universally seen as a sign of intent, to re-establish a winning mentality (individual games, not trophies that least).

Our sacking of the same manager they just picked up was a sign of his failure, apparently, to motivate these players. I agree with much of the OP, but I can't agree that it is Ole's fault they can't be arsed. It has been a long established fact that Jose - The Special One - couldn't get what was needed out of this group... how could Ole?

Simply put, it seems upper management thought sacking Mou and putting in Ole permanately (after some hard fought wins) was a sign of intent, that we'll re-establish ourselves within our ethos, and rescind our policy of in-and-out management. Despite the turmoil, I absolutely love this intention. I believe upper management is finally seeing the long term as a priority.

When a season goes this badly, it is hard to see past your nose into the long term. Whether or not Ole is the right man to bring us back to the top, who knows, but I am optimistic his tenure could be the beginnings of reversing post-SAF policies of short term, revenue minded leadership we've had for what seems like a decade now.
 

Roboc7

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I may be wrong, I don't know Poch personally, but I would have thought he will want to take the rest of the season away from football, recharge his batteries, and then carefully consider all the options open to him over the Summer..
That could well be true and could be why Ole keeps his job. If Poch isn’t willing to join until end of season then that would obviously have an impact.

Most important thing is Ole isn’t manager next season and that we make that decision and have a successor set up well in advance.
 

Kappa123

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OP makes some great points and I agree with the need to do things the correct way... But Ole is just so bad he needs to go doesn't he.

Bringing in a caretaker manager, as uninspiring as that sounds, is probably the most sensible solution for this season. Either way Ole should go ASAP.
 

SplitzMagic

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Guys don't confuse yourselves. It's clear we need Pochettino. We need to remember that Pochettino didn't build that Tottenham team but he managed to 'coach' them and get them title challenging AND champions league final.

Imagine what he could do with funds? The year they got into the champs final he complained that he had no money to spend on the squad.

His demise was always going to happen, it's not as if he's a bad manager. He just fell out with his boss and it had a domino effect on his squad.

Given we were prepared to pay 40m for him last year, we must be in to get him ASAP or we will continue this trend. However, I do feel like the Glazers are getting ready to sell eitherway.

The main question we should ask ourselves is have we ever had a suitable manager since fergie? My answer is no and I have only ever seen poch as the ideal manager. Promotes youth, plays great football and is very low maintenance.

At Tottenham he was like girlfriend that had finally had enough as you've been together 10 years and still haven't proposed :lol:

Jokes aside. I don't think there is an argument for not getting poch in. Solksjaer is a flash in the pan. I thank him for warming the seat but we need a real manager now. Not a molde-y one.

That's all
 
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hobbers

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Poch may well be claused off from joining us until the summer as it is.

If that's the case I wouldn't be against keeping Ole for the rest of the season (or sacking him after Christmas and just letting Carrick take over, not like he could do any worse), and making the big decision in the summer between Poch, Nagelmann, Rose maybe, whoever else.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Would you trust the club though?
Key question, ain' t it?

For me, it doesn't matter what we do until we see some undeniable signs that an actual long-term strategy (and a good one, at that) is being worked on by the club as a whole (not by an individual manager who may or may not possess certain qualities).

The most obvious sign would be the hiring of a DOF - that is, a figure with genuine authority/decision making power who ranks above the manager (or head coach, more precisely), and whose task is to protect and implement (through hiring the right people) a long-term plan for the club.

Right now, I'm completely indifferent to sacking or keeping Ole. But if pressed, I'd probably land on something like the OP's stance.
 

backofthenet

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He's not the messiah... he's a very naughty boy
But that isn't what I said? I said it's not unreasonable to expect a good manager to come in and at least somewhat improve us, which was in response to you saying expectations on them would be too high, which simply is not true because expectations right now are so low. Even if a manager came in and showed any sort of improvement in results and style of play whatsoever, I'm sure fans would be satisfied.

And most importantly, as I said, it gives that new manager extra time to assess the squad and identify what they need in the summer, which you seem to be completely ignoring, which is bizarre because to me, that seems like an enormous benefit to getting someone in right now.

There is no tangible downside to getting in a new, full time, better manager than Ole right now, at all. If you think there is I suspect that's purely because you are so desperate to cling on to any hope of Ole making it here that you're trying to make up excuses for yourself to give him more time to turn it around.
But that's not correct. Expectations are really high, otherwise people wouldn't be complaining about life in mid table. The expectation is that, with a crap squad, we should be top 4, or as close to it as makes no difference. If a new manager came in, they would be expected to hit top 4 form, straight out, otherwise we go into this cycle again.

Irrespective of manager, we don't have the players, or rather we don't have enough of the requisite quality players to cope when a few get injured.
 

Hugh Jass

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I agree. Unless we are absolutely in a terrible position we should keep Ole.

I dont think Allegri is the answer. Poch maybe but i am not convinced by him either.
 

romufc

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Unless we are absolutely in a terrible position we should keep Ole.
Have your standards dropped that low? We are 9th for Christ sake.

Our expectations are lowering year on year, a bit like Arsenal.

Not only are we in a terrible position, the football is shocking.
 

devilish

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They got caught up in the idea of Ole being the manager and blew their load.

I do think they genuinely tried, to hire a DOF but by then the criteria had changed to one who would 'work with Ole' rather than manage the head coach.

I can't see many sporting directors interested in a structure, where the head coach isn't his subordinate.
I think you've got the role of the DOF wrong here. The DOF is the expert in hiring football related personnel (mostly players but because of his experience he's also involved in choosing the new manager as well). However his relationship with the manager is not that between boss and employee but more like two highly skilled people working in tandem. Think of it like an operation theatre. You've got a surgeon (ie the manager) and the anaesthetist there. Both are doctors, both seem to take over specific points of the operation, but they both work in tandem. The anaesthetist won't tell the surgeon how to operate. Meanwhile if the patient is having air way problems then the surgeon will move aside and let the anaesthetist take over.

The manager is the man who choose tactics, he conduct training and he is responsible of the fitness/coaching staff. If he needs a transfer (ex CB), he'll come out with a very detailed report of what he wants (ex tall, strong CB whose good in air and whose defensively sound) and he gives it to the DOF. The DOF would then use his contacts and all the scouts available to find the ideal player for the manager. The manager is kept up to date with videos of the player, performances records etc and while he doesn't have a final say, his say is valued more then anyone else's. That's give the club a level of accountability. For example if the manager asks for a CB with those specifications and the DOF comes with Lindelof then its evident that it was the DOF that messed up. Lindelof is not a tall, physically imposing CB whose good in air. However if the manager keeps asking for certain players, the DOF satisfy those criterias and yet the team keeps failing (bad tactics, losing the dressing room etc) then its evident that the issue is the manager not the DOF.

In my opinion, the reason why we don't get a DOF is that the DOF would have access to how much money the club really want to spend on the transfer market. Just like top managers, top DOFs have a reputation to defend. If the club asks them to sort 7 positions and only gives them 40m to spend then there's a risk of them showing the middle finger at the club, move elsewhere only to tell the real situation at Manchester United in a bid to defend his reputation. Currently that magic number is held by Woodward who can then fluff things around and blame everything to impossible demands made by potential sellers, the manager's rigidity in not accepting the players which were suggested to him or ithe inability to conduct deals in the restricted time provided by the transfer window. That's quite comfortable
 

hobbers

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Unless we are absolutely in a terrible position we should keep Ole.
Eh? What sort of logic is that? This pathetic defeatist zero-ambition attitude from some fans is alarming. Terrifying how fast it's descended on the club.

Most managers out there are an upgrade on Ole. This is a fact. Yes the board need to time his sacking well and make sure everything is lined up with a replacement who fits the bill. If that means waiting until the new year to sack him, so be it. If that means waiting until the summer to sack him, so be it.

But even if we didn't do that replacing Ole with someone like Allegri right now would still be a huge improvement and massively improve our chances of finishing, at least in the top half of the table, if not top four. That is a measure of just how bad Ole is doing, that even the most reactive, thoughtless response is still an improvement on the status quo.
 

SplitzMagic

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Anyone that says they have question marks over Pochettino is bonkers.

Some of you have become so used to this rubbish that you will torture yourselves by even considering to keep Ole even longer. Like what the hell!

Ole is literally like watching a horror movie as a kid hiding under the sheet. Knowing things don't end well but you still somehow force yourself to watch it.
 

Massive Spanner

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But that's not correct. Expectations are really high, otherwise people wouldn't be complaining about life in mid table. The expectation is that, with a crap squad, we should be top 4, or as close to it as makes no difference. If a new manager came in, they would be expected to hit top 4 form, straight out, otherwise we go into this cycle again.

Irrespective of manager, we don't have the players, or rather we don't have enough of the requisite quality players to cope when a few get injured.
Well that's not high expectations at all as I think this squad is perfectly capable of challenging for top four especially when the standard of teams competing for 4th this season is so low. Even then I don't think any manager who comes in would be expected to show top four form straight away, at most people would want an improvement in results, style of play and showing some semblance of knowing what they are doing. I think any expectation of top four has gone completely out of the window now.

Any manager who comes in now basically gets a free ride til the end of the season to show us what they are capable of. Nobody expects top four, or trophies, just... better than this shite. It's not unrealistic to think that a good manager would do better with this squad.
 

dannyrhinos89

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I agree. Unless we are absolutely in a terrible position we should keep Ole.

I dont think Allegri is the answer. Poch maybe but i am not convinced by him either.
mate we’ve only win 8 of our last 21 games ffs,
we’re closer to the relegation zone than 4th place and we’ve got a tough run these next few games it’s entirely possible we will be in or around the relegation zone in a few weeks time.
Liverpool are light years ahead of us but the fact they’re already 22 points ahead of us 14 games into the season Is a disgrace.

How on earth can you say we’re not in a terrible position.
 

Ed9

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It felt like a new us yesterday. That's who we are now. No anger, just numbness. All the talk about progress from Woodward or whoever is our manager, one after another, but still the same thing. With Liverpool renovating and expending their stadium while OT is fading... once they reach our league tally we can't say a thing about them being English number 1. After Sir Alex knocked them off their perch. It doesn't matter who is our manager. We're rotten from the top.
 

backofthenet

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He's not the messiah... he's a very naughty boy
Well that's not high expectations at all as I think this squad is perfectly capable of challenging for top four especially when the standard of teams competing for 4th this season is so low. Even then I don't think any manager who comes in would be expected to show top four form straight away, at most people would want an improvement in results, style of play and showing some semblance of knowing what they are doing. I think any expectation of top four has gone completely out of the window now.

Any manager who comes in now basically gets a free ride til the end of the season to show us what they are capable of. Nobody expects top four, or trophies, just... better than this shite. It's not unrealistic to think that a good manager would do better with this squad.
I'm not sure. It seems to me that any manager that comes in is expected to be producing a level of play that Liverpool and City are. If they're not, they're not good enough, irrespective of the players at their disposal. I think part of the problem is that our two biggest footballing rivals, excluding dirty Leeds, are top of the tree producing great football, winning games with style and generally winning trophies. On the basis we used to do that not so long ago, people want that now, now, NOW. It's a cycle... we're crap now, and probably will be for a few years. I personally think we need some stability.
 

Massive Spanner

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I'm not sure. It seems to me that any manager that comes in is expected to be producing a level of play that Liverpool and City are. If they're not, they're not good enough, irrespective of the players at their disposal. I think part of the problem is that our two biggest footballing rivals, excluding dirty Leeds, are top of the tree producing great football, winning games with style and generally winning trophies. On the basis we used to do that not so long ago, people want that now, now, NOW. It's a cycle... we're crap now, and probably will be for a few years. I personally think we need some stability.
No that's not true at all and you need only look at the amount of time LvG, Jose, and Ole have all been given despite all three of them playing a terrible style of football. We are arguably the most patient club in the league when it comes to managers.

Any manager who comes in now will need to show signs of progress this season and then build on it from there, that's all. It's fecking madness to suggest we should wait til the summer because we don't want to give them any possible expectations for improvement should they come in now, seriously, think about it, think about that logic, it's insane!