Why is everyone so certain that DDG will be a starter under ETH?

[CloneMC16]

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Courtois has serious issues with how he believes he's perceived by other people. It surprises me that someone so good seems to be that insecure. He's still right, though. His shot prevention is streets ahead of De Gea's.

I love that this conversation is taking place. There are a decent chunk in the fanbase that are finally realising that De Gea isn't as good as the reputation he's earned over the years. He has way too many flaws that can't be ignored. It's not only that he's very weak in one area. There are multiple areas that he is terrible in. The stats show how bad he is at certain aspects of goalkeeping.

 

[Dante]

DDG was worth +3 goals this season. Not terrible. But the worst of the big 6 (which includes Ramsdale at Arsenal).

You can see his cross claiming, throughball sweeping and general passing are all well below par.

 

[mikeyt]

In a world where we play indoor 5 a side football that doesn't allow the goalkeeper to step outside of the D, he'd be one of the all time greats. Sadly football at an elite level isn't quite the same.

De Gea isn't and never has been a world class goalkeeper. He had a spell of being a world class shot stopper but that's it. At everything else including his ability to lead and communicate he's woeful. If De Gea was a great goalkeeper he'd control his area and defence so that he'd have far less shots to actually stop.

That said he ain't going anywhere and on his wage will start for Ten Hag which I find a real shame because until he's replaced we'll never be good at the back.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

In a world where we play indoor 5 a side football that doesn't allow the goalkeeper to step outside of the D, he'd be one of the all time greats. Sadly football at an elite level isn't quite the same.

De Gea isn't and never has been a world class goalkeeper. He had a spell of being a world class shot stopper but that's it. At everything else including his ability to lead and communicate he's woeful. If De Gea was a great goalkeeper he'd control his area and defence so that he'd have far less shots to actually stop.

That said he ain't going anywhere and on his wage will start for Ten Hag which I find a real shame because until he's replaced we'll never be good at the back.

I agree he likely isn't going anywhere this Summer. But like how Henderson provided serious competition for De Gea in 2020/21, I think if Henderson is sold then Ten Hag will hope to sign a new GK in his image to compete for the number 1 spot. I don't think he'll be afraid to bench De Gea if he can get someone who suits his team more.

 

[spe88]

Surely this is one of our least worries

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Surely this is one of our least worries

When you see the stats above does it look like a big worry to you? To me it looks like a huge priority.

 

[JB7]

Surely this is one of our least worries

Indeed. Playing with a player less in possession than most of our opponents because the goalkeeper doesn't make himself available for passes when the defenders are under pressure isn't a worry. Being unable to play a high line because the goalkeeper doesn't leave his line to deal with balls over the top isn't a worry. Having every cross into the box being a 50:50 chance of an attempt on goal because the goalkeeper won't ever deal with the ball isn't a worry. The goalkeepers distribution actually leading to more goals against us than for us definitely isn't a worry. Give him a new contract I say.

 

[sullydnl]

DDG was worth +3 goals this season. Not terrible. But the worst of the big 6 (which includes Ramsdale at Arsenal).

You can see his cross claiming, throughball sweeping and general passing are all well below par.

And the crucial point is that the value of his shot-stopping ability relates directly to the number of shots he faces. As the team improves and we concede fewer shots, the extent to which he can compensate for his other weaknesses through that one strength drops off. So the better the side gets, the harder it will be for him to add value to it. And that's assuming his shot-stopping form remains high.

But then we're really repeating the same points over and over again. Excellent shot-stopper, weak at everything else, was a net positive this season, will be a problem going forward, we have other priorities, etc etc. We are where we are.

 

[UnitedFire]

And the crucial point is that the value of his shot-stopping ability relates directly to the number of shots he faces. As the team improves and we concede fewer shots, the extent to which he can compensate for his other weaknesses through that one strength drops off. So the better the side gets, the harder it will be for him to add value to it. And that's assuming his shot-stopping form remains high.

But then we're really repeating the same points over and over again. Excellent shot-stopper, weak at everything else, was a net positive this season, will be a problem going forward, we have other priorities, etc etc. We are where we are.

Nicely summarised

If Man Utd was a car. De Gea would be the Sat Nav. Important no doubt and at a certain time those maps that are 10 years out of date need an update, but most of the time it does the job and does it well.

You don't focus on an expensive map update when you have a couple of flat tyres, a couple of bald tyres, an engine not starting, a broken handbrake, brake pads to the metal, steering wheel reconnected, but not aligned yet, windscreen full of turd and wiper blades are broken. And the gear stick has gone and the cam belt needs replacing. The seats have been knifed by the ex....etc.

De Gea chat should be put on hold for at least 2 years. I'd argue we need to sign 20 players before replacing De Gea....complete squad refresh, particularly with 5 subs.

For example, even if we brought in replacements for McTom. I'd still prioritise better backups next year than replacing De Gea.

 

[Noc-Z]

Probably if anyone is certain it's because Henderson has been linked with a move away and doesn't seem to be as good as he thinks he is. Also we have much more pressing concerns to address in the starting 11 - i.e. all over the pitch and we haven't been linked with any goalkeepers at the moment.

 

[JB7]

De Gea chat should be put on hold for at least 2 years. I'd argue we need to sign 20 players before replacing De Gea....complete squad refresh, particularly with 5 subs.

For example, even if we brought in replacements for McTom. I'd still prioritise better backups next year than replacing De Gea.

Firstly, he's out of contract next summer and is currently the highest paid goalkeeper in the world by far despite clearly being a million miles away from being the best goalkeeper in the league, let alone the world. So putting "De Gea chat on hold for at least 2 years" is completely insane.

Secondly, suggesting you'd essentially sign 4 or 5 players to all play one position before a new goalkeeper is actually even more insane.

I've deleted the car comparison from the quoted reply because I can't be arsed delving into yet another level of insanity but if you think the goalkeepers importance to the team is akin to a sat-nav system in a car then to put it in the mildest possible terms; you're significantly underrating the importance a proper goalkeeper has on his team.

 

[UnitedFire]

Firstly, he's out of contract next summer and is currently the highest paid goalkeeper in the world by far despite clearly being a million miles away from being the best goalkeeper in the league, let alone the world. So putting "De Gea chat on hold for at least 2 years" is completely insane.

Secondly, suggesting you'd essentially sign 4 or 5 players to all play one position before a new goalkeeper is actually even more insane.

I've deleted the car comparison from the quoted reply because I can't be arsed delving into yet another level of insanity but if you think the goalkeepers importance to the team is akin to a sat-nav system in a car then to put it in the mildest possible terms; you're significantly underrating the importance a proper goalkeeper has on his team.

We are not just going to let De Gea go on a free to then need to find a £70m+ goalkeeper to replace him. That's not a good use of resources and not every £70m goalkeeper even works out so that could easily jump up that cost.

I'm sure we'll agree a contract with De Gea that balances the risk to reward here and his age, but neither of us need to be concerned about his pay cheque. Either way he has earned it.

Those stats on here show he is the best shot stopper out of the top 6 and frankly that is a pretty significant factor. For example failing to be good in the air at catching, but instead saving a shot after that is the same end result.

Goalkeepers distribution is over rated. You won't get a goalkeeper racking up 30 assists a season. There is only a marginal gain from a great distributor versus passing to a defender who then does the passing. Even that gain is debatable as passing to a CB gains yards in itself which then opens up a longer range for any long passes. Plus either way we aren't Bolton!

4 or 5 players in the same position is not insane. 2 or 3 of those can play at any time and if you have injuries you are then relying on the backups. Those backups have been shown to be poor and can significantly reduce the quality of our midfield engine.

I'm certain the material gain on never using McFred again will be more than any gain on an improvement over De Gea. Take into account the better our midfield is the more control of the game we have, the more chances we create, the more goals we score and the less defensive actions we are likely to concede thus less need for the goalkeeper to be involved.

Same principles apply in most positions. If you can remember back to SAF days our goalkeepers could go most games with very little involvement. Their key skill required was thus to be alert when called on once or twice a game. De Gea is one of the best in the business for this. He might not rush out and be a sweeper keeper, but it doesn't matter because he'll save the shot and likely rebounds as well.

The obsession with the modern keeper is insane!

 

[JB7]

We are not just going to let De Gea go on a free to then need to find a £70m+ goalkeeper to replace him. That's not a good use of resources and not every £70m goalkeeper even works out so that could easily jump up that cost.

I'm sure we'll agree a contract with De Gea that balances the risk to reward here and his age, but neither of us need to be concerned about his pay cheque. Either way he has earned it.

Those stats on here show he is the best shot stopper out of the top 6 and frankly that is a pretty significant factor. For example failing to be good in the air at catching, but instead saving a shot after that is the same end result.

Goalkeepers distribution is over rated. You won't get a goalkeeper racking up 30 assists a season. There is only a marginal gain from a great distributor versus passing to a defender who then does the passing. Even that gain is debatable as passing to a CB gains yards in itself which then opens up a longer range for any long passes. Plus either way we aren't Bolton!

4 or 5 players in the same position is not insane. 2 or 3 of those can play at any time and if you have injuries you are then relying on the backups. Those backups have been shown to be poor and can significantly reduce the quality of our midfield engine.

I'm certain the material gain on never using McFred again will be more than any gain on an improvement over De Gea. Take into account the better our midfield is the more control of the game we have, the more chances we create, the more goals we score and the less defensive actions we are likely to concede thus less need for the goalkeeper to be involved.

Same principles apply in most positions. If you can remember back to SAF days our goalkeepers could go most games with very little involvement. Their key skill required was thus to be alert when called on once or twice a game. De Gea is one of the best in the business for this. He might not rush out and be a sweeper keeper, but it doesn't matter because he'll save the shot and likely rebounds as well.

The obsession with the modern keeper is insane!

Why does it need to be a £70m goalkeeper? There were multiple goalkeepers who changed hands last summer for circa £20m or less that would be substantial upgrades over De Gea.

And the issues De Gea struggles with aren't "modern goalkeeper" things. They are basics of goalkeeping; crosses in the box, balls in behind the defenders, communicating with his defenders, basic distribution (not through balls etc like you seem to be going on about). These were critical factors when I started playing in goal 25 years ago. Sure the elements of how much time goalkeepers spend with the ball at their feet has changed over time but the basics - which he is terrible at - haven't changed. He's a very good shot stopper. So was Shay Given back in the day, but he didn't make it at the very top level because he couldn't do anything else.

You can be as certain as you want about the benefit of replacing De Gea versus the benefit of replacing McTominay and Fred but the statistics don't back your view up. During the spell De Gea was out of the team in 2020/21 saw our overall performances improve dramatically. I've been over the stats several times so not doing it again but every performance metric improved during that run, and almost immediately dropped off once we brought him back into the fold, and that was with a goalkeeper who is pretty average across those critical areas - imagine the difference a goalkeeper like Maignan (how we let him slip through last summer is astonishing), Sanchez or Sa who are actually very good in those areas would make.

If you looked over the statistics posted above and all you saw was that De Gea is the best performing shot stopper of the 6 then it's pointless arguing with you because your understanding of the position is pretty clearly zero.

 

[Oranges038]

Why does it need to be a £70m goalkeeper? There were multiple goalkeepers who changed hands last summer for circa £20m or less that would be substantial upgrades over De Gea.

And the issues De Gea struggles with aren't "modern goalkeeper" things. They are basics of goalkeeping; crosses in the box, balls in behind the defenders, communicating with his defenders, basic distribution (not through balls etc like you seem to be going on about). These were critical factors when I started playing in goal 25 years ago. Sure the elements of how much time goalkeepers spend with the ball at their feet has changed over time but the basics - which he is terrible at - haven't changed. He's a very good shot stopper. So was Shay Given back in the day, but he didn't make it at the very top level because he couldn't do anything else.

You can be as certain as you want about the benefit of replacing De Gea versus the benefit of replacing McTominay and Fred but the statistics don't back your view up. During the spell De Gea was out of the team in 2020/21 saw our overall performances improve dramatically. I've been over the stats several times so not doing it again but every performance metric improved during that run, and almost immediately dropped off once we brought him back into the fold, and that was with a goalkeeper who is pretty average across those critical areas - imagine the difference a goalkeeper like Maignan (how we let him slip through last summer is astonishing), Sanchez or Sa who are actually very good in those areas would make.

If you looked over the statistics posted above and all you saw was that De Gea is the best performing shot stopper of the 6 then it's pointless arguing with you because your understanding of the position is pretty clearly zero.

I still don't understand how people can't recognise this.

Literally the only thing that has changed for keepers is being more involved with the ball, general gameplay and possession. Being a passing option and being able to control and pass a football. Everything else has always been part of the keepers job, including sweeping. And he's been one of the worst in the league at all of them for a while now.

 

[MadDogg]

The obsession with the modern keeper is insane!

The on-going myth that the problem with De Gea is that he's not a 'modern' keeper is what is insane. There are multiple important skills and aspects of being a keeper. De Gea is (was?) fantastic at one of them. He's terrible (literally amongst the worst in the entire league) at all the others, including ones which have always been important.

I would go so far to say that De Gea came along at the only time in the last 50 years or so where he would be able to shine. If he'd been 15 years earlier, his lack of physicality and aerial ability would have seen him utterly destroyed by big centre forwards a dozen times a match. He was lucky enough that the rules were changing to give massive protection to goalkeepers just before he came along, and even now it embarrasses him multiple times a season. Hell, if he'd been in goal instead of Schmeichel it would probably have been his own central defenders who were destroying him as they wouldn't have put up with how terrible he is at some of the things which are absolute basics for a goalkeeper. And if he'd come along 10 years later his weakness in distribution and unwillingness to participate in playing a high line would have been highlighted much more, resulting in him probably never getting a move to a top club in the first place.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Surely this is one of our least worries

Very much so to anyone with common sense/eyes.

 

[spe88]

You’re missing the point… at the moment we have Dalot, Maguire, McFred and Elanga in our starting 11.

Maybe it needs to be looked at the following season but theres no way we’re realistically having 7 new players in our line up.

Indeed. Playing with a player less in possession than most of our opponents because the goalkeeper doesn't make himself available for passes when the defenders are under pressure isn't a worry. Being unable to play a high line because the goalkeeper doesn't leave his line to deal with balls over the top isn't a worry. Having every cross into the box being a 50:50 chance of an attempt on goal because the goalkeeper won't ever deal with the ball isn't a worry. The goalkeepers distribution actually leading to more goals against us than for us definitely isn't a worry. Give him a new contract I say.

 

[MDFC Manager]

After initial hiccups, De Gea was starting majority of the games for LvG. I see no reason why it'll be different under Ten Hag. Sure he may want to eventually rid, but if we prioritise that position, we'll have a tough season ahead

 

[MalaysianRed7]

In a world where we play indoor 5 a side football that doesn't allow the goalkeeper to step outside of the D, he'd be one of the all time greats. Sadly football at an elite level isn't quite the same.

De Gea isn't and never has been a world class goalkeeper. He had a spell of being a world class shot stopper but that's it. At everything else including his ability to lead and communicate he's woeful. If De Gea was a great goalkeeper he'd control his area and defence so that he'd have far less shots to actually stop.

That said he ain't going anywhere and on his wage will start for Ten Hag which I find a real shame because until he's replaced we'll never be good at the back.

If DDG 2014-18 wasn’t a world class keeper, including in the non-shot stopping aspects until around 2017, then there’s never been a world class keeper. He’s not world class anymore, but he’s still a top keeper.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

There are 0 rumours too on signing GK.

We are linked with players in every position except GK.

It’s rare for a goalkeeper transfer to grab headlines to be honest. I can’t think of a single one beyond De Gea to Madrid and the Donnarumma free transfer. Kepa, Allison, Ederson and Mendy were all huge fees but they seemed to just ‘happen’. No sideshows or histrionics.

 

[Tavern in the town]

After initial hiccups, De Gea was starting majority of the games for LvG. I see no reason why it'll be different under Ten Hag. Sure he may want to eventually rid, but if we prioritise that position, we'll have a tough season ahead

What’s LVG got to do with anything? LVG’s United played nothing like Ten Hag’s Ajax.

 

[roonster09]

It’s rare for a goalkeeper transfer to grab headlines to be honest. I can’t think of a single one beyond De Gea to Madrid and the Donnarumma free transfer. Kepa, Allison, Ederson and Mendy were all huge fees but they seemed to just ‘happen’. No sideshows or histrionics.

There was lot of news on Alisson, Chelsea wanted to sign him but they couldn't, thats when they signed Kepa.

Courtois was linked with Madrid almost all summer.

GK transfer are not common, but when big clubs sign GK it will be news.

 

[JB7]

You’re missing the point… at the moment we have Dalot, Maguire, McFred and Elanga in our starting 11.

Maybe it needs to be looked at the following season but theres no way we’re realistically having 7 new players in our line up.

I would say you’re missing the point. If you want to implement a style of play, the correct type of goalkeeper needs to be a part of that from the outset, certainly in teams that play the way Ten Hags teams do. De Gea doesn’t have the instincts or skillset to be a part of that way of football, whereas a number of the other players mentioned do have the skillset and adaptability. You look at both Guardiola and Klopp in their first summer transfer windows, what did they both sign? A goalkeeper.

 

[Keefy18]

Hasn't he just signed a new deal for a whopping 5 years?!!

Another idiotic move from our board. He'll be going nowhere no matter how ETH feels.

 

[Lord SInister]

Very much so to anyone with common sense/eyes.

Stats obsessed bots would say otherwise though.

 

[Oranges038]

Interesting read for anyone that's in denial.

https://strettynews.com/2022/06/08/opinion-erik-ten-hag-has-to-make-a-decision-on-david-de-gea/

 

[Lyng]

Interesting read for anyone that's in denial.

https://strettynews.com/2022/06/08/opinion-erik-ten-hag-has-to-make-a-decision-on-david-de-gea/

Bringing up Enrique is such a silly argument. Do we have said goalkeepers available? No.

 

[arthurka]

He needs upgrading that's for sure ETH uses his keeper a lot and sadly DDG distribution is really bad. His authority in the box is non existent. That said he can really save some shots. I think Enrique hit the nail on the head, I personally would like a better all round keeper than DDG his flaws are just a few to many to be fixed by some excellent shot stopping that said his shot stopping couple of seasons back wasn't even that good.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Very much so to anyone with common sense/eyes.

Common sense with which the many lack.... I guarantee under a VDS or PS type goalkeeper we wouldn't be mentioning Maguire or Lindelof.

DDG creates more issues than he solves and then "makes up for it" with a last minute save.

 

[Lyng]

Common sense with which the many lack.... I guarantee under a VDS or PS type goalkeeper we wouldn't be mentioning Maguire or Lindelof.

DDG creates more issues than he solves and then "makes up for it" with a last minute save.

Did you watch Maguires mistakes in the Germany game? Is that De Gea's fault as well?

 

[Tavern in the town]

Bringing up Enrique is such a silly argument. Do we have said goalkeepers available? No.

So what? We can actually buy players unlike Spain.

 

[Lyng]

So what? We can actually buy players unlike Spain.

So you want to buy a goalkeeper of that level? Do you honestly believe we can sell De Gea?

 

[Bosws87]

Because he's the best keeper we currently have.

/thread

 

[Oranges038]

Bringing up Enrique is such a silly argument. Do we have said goalkeepers available? No.

Yeah, but unlike Spain, the club can go out and buy a keeper. Would anyone want Utd to sign Unai Simon?


Gk has to compliment the style of play. He doesn't even get near the squad anymore. That should be enough for anyone to realise he really is just not that good or suited to a team looking to play a high pressing, possesion based game.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Common sense with which the many lack.... I guarantee under a VDS or PS type goalkeeper we wouldn't be mentioning Maguire or Lindelof.

Maguire has been calamitous and to pin that on DDG is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Tavern in the town]

So you want to buy a goalkeeper of that level? Do you honestly believe we can sell De Gea?

I want us to buy a good goalkeeper yes, that’s not an unreasonable thing to think. They don’t even cost a lot. Chelsea signed Mendy for 30 odd million and Milan signed Maignan for half that.

 

[Lyng]

I want us to buy a good goalkeeper yes, that’s not an unreasonable thing to think. They don’t even cost a lot. Chelsea signed Mendy for 30 odd million and Milan signed Maignan for half that.

Who do you think we can buy for that amount of money thats actually a long term upgrade? if you think we can get Sanchez for 30 mill I would say you are being a tad naive.

 

[Tavern in the town]

Who do you think we can buy for that amount of money thats actually a long term upgrade? if you think we can get Sanchez for 30 mill I would say you are being a tad naive.

I think we could get Sanchez for 40ish. We could definitely get Raya for cheaper as his deal expires in 2024, he’d be a monumental upgrade. And that also doesn’t take into account the hordes of keepers I haven’t watched, I’ve got a full time job but I imagine our scouts can identify a good keeper at a reasonable price if they’ve got anything about them.

 

[AdamColeBebe]

Because he's our best goalkeeper.

Not sure what other reason you need.

 

[Lyng]

Yeah, but unlike Spain, the club can go out and buy a keeper. Would anyone want Utd to sign Unai Simon?


Gk has to compliment the style of play. He doesn't even get near the squad anymore. That should be enough for anyone to realise he really is just not that good or suited to a team looking to play a high pressing, possesion based game.

Do we need to upgrade De Gea? Yes. But our midfield is far more of an issue right now and this is United not City, we are not going to spent 200 mill this transferwindow.
If we manage to sell Henderson for 35 - 40 mill then sure we might as well sign a new keeper right away, but it doesnt look likely. And if thats not the case we need to spent that money that is left wisely. Midfield and attack are areas we HAVE to adress right away. Goalkeeper could wait till next season.