Why the reluctance to sign a defensive midfielder?

From some videos I’ve watched about De Jong it’s clear that we need a CDM next to him. De Jong isn’t defensively balanced and better with the ball than without it.

If we do sign De Jong then signing a CDM is going to happen - but probably won’t happen in the first season because that’s just wishful thinking of fixing everything in the first few months of management.
 
Chicharo said:
Because Glazers dont't give a shit or we are just incapable of doing it, call if it what you want
The amazing thing is that some people here think that we have already signed FDJ
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Glazers don't identify players or position.

We signed DM under manager who wanted DM, then we hired Ole who thought there is nothing like 6 or 8, they are all CM.
 
A DM has been a requirement for a long time now, but it's finding one that fits into our patterns of play???
Our squad strength would have benefited from a top DM, but suspect our overall results would not be much different . Hopefully when ETH sorts out our style of play it will include an appropriate DM that fufils the requirement and not just someone thrown in because at another club, with a different perspective, he was fantastic ...
 
It’s clear we are going for Frenkie to play at 6.

Id imagine that it’ll be one of McTominay/Fred next to him to provide a bit of physicality and Bruno at 10.
 
Maticmaker said:
A DM has been a requirement for a long time now, but it's finding one that fits into our patterns of play???
Our squad strength would have benefited from a top DM, but suspect our overall results would not be much different . Hopefully when ETH sorts out our style of play it will include an appropriate DM that fufils the requirement and not just someone thrown in because at another club, with a different perspective, he was fantastic ...
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Bissouma or John McGinn would be unbelievably good signings and would definitely improve our results . Neither will happen. So we have to hope the club scouts have worked their overtime and can find someone in the ranks of other leagues.

Declan Rice would make us better I think but not dramatically.
 
Bwuk said:
It’s clear we are going for Frenkie to play at 6.

Id imagine that it’ll be one of McTominay/Fred next to him to provide a bit of physicality and Bruno at 10.
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This and that is absolutely fine in the modern game. A destroyer CDM can actually hold teams back when they have the ball unless it’s someone as good as Busquettes which just doesn’t exist in the game very often.

Press and defend as a team we can get rid of the need for an out and out CDM I assume.
 
A playmaker to dictate the buildup has always been far more important than a true DM. If you have someone who can provide genuine quality passing from deep getting a more physical destroyer is easy and there should be plenty of options.
 
Bebestation said:
From some videos I’ve watched about De Jong it’s clear that we need a CDM next to him. De Jong isn’t defensively balanced and better with the ball than without it.

If we do sign De Jong then signing a CDM is going to happen - but probably won’t happen in the first season because that’s just wishful thinking of fixing everything in the first few months of management.
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Sangare of PSV would be ideal.
 
If we don't sign a midfielder that intercepts and tackle then we are once again leaving the defence wide open with no support. Never seem to learn. Yeah great, let's watch another season of fred and Mct run around like eejits again.
 
Bestietom said:
Yes, and I think he will.
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I wonder if a DM is that critical or a high priority in an ETH system --- where they are on the front foot all the time, playing in the opposition's half. A couple of rapid defenders can cover that role and/or have a Timber shifting into that role/position when everyone else is upfield. Timber can also bring the ball upfield if Frenkie is being man-marked.
 
sglowrider said:
I wonder if a DM is that critical or a high priority in an ETH system --- where they are on the front foot all the time, playing in the opposition's half. A couple of rapid defenders can cover that role and/or have a Timber shifting into that role/position when everyone else is upfield. Timber can also bring the ball upfield if Frenkie is being man-marked.
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Yes, that is if Timber will come this season . Our budget will be gone on De Jong and Antony.
 
Bestietom said:
Yes, that is if Timber will come this season . Our budget will be gone on De Jong and Antony.
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I am not sure Antony is as high a priority as Timber then. We have enough options now on the RW.

We just don't have good options for someone to bring the ball upfield from defence now that Uncle Matic is gone.
 
What’s scary about this is that I see no names being mentioned for this role and the McTom and Fred combo doesn’t seem like a thing of the past. Yes perhaps Timber can play there but he’s not an out and out DCM is he. Big ask also for someone not proven in the PL.
 
sglowrider said:
I am not sure Antony is as high a priority as Timber then. We have enough options now on the RW.
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Agents were over to finalise a deal yesterday. We are still awaiting news of this. I think that with Timber expecting to go to WC he will stay where he is until January at least.
 
I think it would be a very difficult signing to pull off, but I would like us to compete for Bellingham next summer. However, we would need to sign a Ronaldo replacement as well, so it's possible that the budget will not stretch that far. For now, we could sign someone relatively cheap this window like Sangare and a profile of striker in the Jota mould. Amine Gouiri would be my choice.
 
Trex said:
De jong is going to be deepest player so his partner would be someone who would look to receive the ball slightly higher in the build up phase, Fred-De Jong would work similarly to Fred-Matic both on and off the ball.
Matic would do some ball carrying while Fred covers but usually Matic starts deeper and would play at the base of attack same role would be played by De Jong even though they aren't exactly same profile.
Although like I said I'm not against another signing coming in.
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Yes, but like Pirlo at Juventus, that is with the ball, without it you need an intelligent midfielder than can defend like Vidal. We are kind of agreeing but I am just strongl disagreeing on Fred. DeJOng obviously as a single signing massively improves us with the ball in midfield, he doesnt improve us much without it though, apart from positioinig and reading the game and I would argue that as bad as we were with the ball last season without it, I think we were bar the relegation sides one of the poorest teams in the league without it, our midfield was passed and strolled through on numerous occasions most games....oh for a RObson, Ince or Keane.....or Belllingham Rice currently, we need a cheaper version of that....know little but from what seen/read....Enzo Fernandez maybe?
 
SeanyC said:
What’s scary about this is that I see no names being mentioned for this role and the McTom and Fred combo doesn’t seem like a thing of the past. Yes perhaps Timber can play there but he’s not an out and out DCM is he. Big ask also for someone not proven in the PL.
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We're working on signing Frenkie de Jong. If we pull it off I can see us pairing him with Fred. McTominay and Garner as backups. In that respect McFred would be a thing of the past but we might still see it occasionally. An extra DM would be ideal but maybe one for the next window.
 
Looks like some of us have misinterpreted on what a DM actually is. A DM is someone who is very good at reading the game, positioning, intercepting and tackling. DMs need to be very strong, good stamina (need to cover a lot of space) and to a small extent, they need to hold up possession as well. In terms of passing, they just need to keep it simple. Their role has always been defensive and in terms of offense, they are rarely involved.

Due to a stronger focus on play systems (e.g. total football), players with the capability to create and with good vision and passing capabilities as well as technical skills in terms of dribbling have been pushed deeper towards the defence. We call these players regista. They are not DMs but are playing in that position due to the system and also due to their lack of pace. However regista requires at least 2 defensively good CMs to give them space and freedom, which is what Ancelotti did at Milan (Gattuso and Seedorf covering Pirlo).

ETH is looking at De Jong because he has the attributes required for a DM as well as a Regista. He is also capable of playing as a CM. Basically opens up the possibility of playing various type of formations.
 
SeanyC said:
What’s scary about this is that I see no names being mentioned for this role and the McTom and Fred combo doesn’t seem like a thing of the past.
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I definitely don't see the club going for a DM as they view McT as being totally able to handle that position.
Steve McLaren has already been spouting what a great player he is, and how he always delivers...?!?!
In my opinion, there is absolutely no chance that McT, Maguire, Rashford & Shaw will not be guaranteed starters next season.
 
Ive personally always thought the need for a DM has been greatly overstated. It’s far more important that we get two midfielders who are press resistant and comfortable on the ball. Bissouma would be a great partner for De Jong as he’s actually very good on the ball otherwise I’d dream of someone like Neves partnering him.

The irony is all the Utd fans clamouring for a DM yet never in our football history have we had one so it’s slightly strange hill to die on. Personally I’d rather go the City route and control the game through possession, dominance, and energy. You don’t need a big towering defensive midfielder to pull that off.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Ive personally always thought the need for a DM has been greatly overstated. It’s far more important that we get two midfielders who are press resistant and comfortable on the ball. Bissouma would be a great partner for De Jong as he’s actually very good on the ball otherwise I’d dream of someone like Neves partnering him.

The irony is all the Utd fans clamouring for a DM yet never in our football history have we had one so it’s slightly strange hill to die on. Personally I’d rather go the City route and control the game through possession, dominance, and energy. You don’t need a big towering defensive midfielder to pull that off.
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Fernandinho and Rodri are both defensive midfielders. Liverpool have Fabinho in that role. Our history isn’t relevant, how modern teams set up is.
 
macheda14 said:
Fernandinho and Rodri are both defensive midfielders. Liverpool have Fabinho in that role. Our history isn’t relevant, how modern teams set up is.
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Rodri is a playmaker as is Busquets and they have probably played in the two most successful teams of the last couple decades. No top team has a pure defensive mid, they have to be very good on the ball which many of our fans don’t seem to realise. Hell our current manager had great success without a DM, it’s a massively overrated cog. Give me a midfield playmaker any day over some clogger.
 
I really don't think we need a purely defensive midfielder. The system arguably is more important and considering De Jong interest plus the players we have it would make most sense for ETH to play a double pivot rather than rely on a single pivot.

In a system employing a single pivot we absolutely need to have a player able to be great defensively while also being able to progress the ball reasonably well. Currently we have nobody in the squad capable of this role naturally. Both McT and Fred are defensive minded 8s. In a double pivot the progression and defensive actions can be shared. We know ETH played this system at Ajax when we began - and used De Jong to drop in between the centre backs to aid progression while Schöne was the other pivot who was more defensive oriented and mopped up.

I truly believe we have the personnel required for this role with both Fred/ McT and even Garner capable of this. Barring last season we have looked comfortable playing a double pivot of McFred while lacking goals since none of them are particularly good at progression. The bigger issue will be the rotation option for De Jong if/when he does come in.

Some defence Fbref data for Fred vs similar players

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TrustInJanuzaj said:
Rodri is a playmaker as is Busquets and they have probably played in the two most successful teams of the last couple decades. No top team has a pure defensive mid, they have to be very good on the ball which many of our fans don’t seem to realise. Hell our current manager had great success without a DM, it’s a massively overrated cog. Give me a midfield playmaker any day over some clogger.
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Yeah a playmaker of De Jong’s quality significantly improves that midfield, my only worry is being too open without a DM
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Rodri is a playmaker as is Busquets and they have probably played in the two most successful teams of the last couple decades. No top team has a pure defensive mid, they have to be very good on the ball which many of our fans don’t seem to realise. Hell our current manager had great success without a DM, it’s a massively overrated cog. Give me a midfield playmaker any day over some clogger.
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Those aren't the two most successful teams of the last couple decades. Real Madrid won four Champions Leagues with Casemiro as starter.
 
If we see Manutd we had a kean /Ince type and a Carrick type DM. both types were successful.It appears De jong is a number 8 who wants to play 6. i guess ETh would know more his best position but it is obvious we still need a number 6.
 
Charles Miller said:
Those aren't the two most successful teams of the last couple decades. Real Madrid won four Champions Leagues with Casemiro as starter.
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Pretty debatable overall. Barca are the best club side I’ve ever seen. City are undoubtoy one of the best prem sides. Even then madrid we’re so successful primarily because they had Madrid and Kroos, two word class playmaking CMs. Casemiro was a good player but we don’t have anything like that kind of play making ability.
 
Yagami said:
We're concentrating on the most important part of ten Hag's puzzle - Frenkie de Jong. He's the key to everything ten Hag plans on implementing to our game.

After he's (hopefully) sewn up, the rest will follow.
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Wow, not much pressure on him then, if this one player is the key to it all!
 
padzilla said:
I mean it's a pretty obvious area in which we need improvement and has been for some time. Surely we can afford to take a punt on someone who isn't Matic/ Fred/ McTominay who are all equally ineffective for different reasons?
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Define defensive midfielder and what traits you want that player to have in terms of make up of their game. Do you want an Ndidi/Guaye who can basically just tackle? Do you want a deep lying playmaker like Carrick who doesn’t really tackle but just cuts off passing lines? A player who cuts off passing lines and tackles and gives the ball to the person nearest to them? Given that most CB’s are mediocre at passing, we now have 3 people plus De Gea who can’t really play football, and that’s before we start looking at AwB.

Is it too much to ask for a couple of players like Fred (with slightly better passing ability) but basically players who can do a bit of everything in the middle. Why are we so fixated on having one player in the middle who’s job it is is to just tackle?
 
OpenIntrovert said:
Looks like some of us have misinterpreted on what a DM actually is. A DM is someone who is very good at reading the game, positioning, intercepting and tackling. DMs need to be very strong, good stamina (need to cover a lot of space) and to a small extent, they need to hold up possession as well. In terms of passing, they just need to keep it simple. Their role has always been defensive and in terms of offense, they are rarely involved.

Due to a stronger focus on play systems (e.g. total football), players with the capability to create and with good vision and passing capabilities as well as technical skills in terms of dribbling have been pushed deeper towards the defence. We call these players regista. They are not DMs but are playing in that position due to the system and also due to their lack of pace. However regista requires at least 2 defensively good CMs to give them space and freedom, which is what Ancelotti did at Milan (Gattuso and Seedorf covering Pirlo).

ETH is looking at De Jong because he has the attributes required for a DM as well as a Regista. He is also capable of playing as a CM. Basically opens up the possibility of playing various type of formations.
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Which we won't have, because one of our midfielders is Bruno. In our midfield, we expect a lot of defending from whoever is playing with Bruno. FDJ's defensive stats are pretty much non-existent.



His interception and tackling stats are very low. Most of his tackles are in the final third of the pitch. This is not the type of player that is going to help protect our defence. Unless we're signing another midfielder, we're going to partner him with Fred or McT. We've watched both of them try and play the position and neither of have been good at it. We should be a lot better with the ball, but without, I think we're still going to have a lot of problems. This transfer would make a lot more sense if one of our starting midfielders wasn't Bruno.
 
I’m so mentally exhausted from praying and wishing that we would sign a DM. You only need to look at all the top teams in Europe to know how important having a DM is. Rodri, Fabinho, Casemiro just to name the 3 best teams in Europe right now. Why we’ve neglected this position since we signed Matic in 2017 I will never know!
 
Pexbo said:
Fergie always said there wasn’t space in his teams for a defensive midfielder. He expected his midfielders to be able to be as important to the attack as they are the defence.
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Just've seen your reply after navigating back to one reply mentioning Riquelme when we signed Carrick, problem is that De Jong isn't as that good as Carrick defensively wise, so the need to sign a true DM to protect the defense at the moment. Plus De Jong is not really a deep lying playmaker who dictates the play from the back, he's a #8 play at #6 position as some members had already said here
 
BuzzKillington said:
Define defensive midfielder and what traits you want that player to have in terms of make up of their game. Do you want an Ndidi/Guaye who can basically just tackle? Do you want a deep lying playmaker like Carrick who doesn’t really tackle but just cuts off passing lines? A player who cuts off passing lines and tackles and gives the ball to the person nearest to them? Given that most CB’s are mediocre at passing, we now have 3 people plus De Gea who can’t really play football, and that’s before we start looking at AwB.

Is it too much to ask for a couple of players like Fred (with slightly better passing ability) but basically players who can do a bit of everything in the middle. Why are we so fixated on having one player in the middle who’s job it is is to just tackle?
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Modern DM s are usually very good passers.
 
AndyMUFC86 said:
I’m so mentally exhausted from praying and wishing that we would sign a DM. You only need to look at all the top teams in Europe to know how important having a DM is. Rodri, Fabinho, Casemiro just to name the 3 best teams in Europe right now. Why we’ve neglected this position since we signed Matic in 2017 I will never know!
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Yeah this constant neglect of such a huge weakness in this team is unacceptable
 
CloneMC16 said:
Which we won't have, because one of our midfielders is Bruno. In our midfield, we expect a lot of defending from whoever is playing with Bruno. FDJ's defensive stats are pretty much non-existent.



His interception and tackling stats are very low. Most of his tackles are in the final third of the pitch. This is not the type of player that is going to help protect our defence. Unless we're signing another midfielder, we're going to partner him with Fred or McT. We've watched both of them try and play the position and neither of have been good at it. We should be a lot better with the ball, but without, I think we're still going to have a lot of problems. This transfer would make a lot more sense if one of our starting midfielders wasn't Bruno.
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Stats cannot be interpreted well unless we know the actual context of how he is being used and the type of tactics that Barcelona deploy. In a club like Barcelona where they tend to keep possession most of the time, FDJ playing in a more advanced role (CM) and Busquets sitting at the DM portion, it is expected that FDJ's tackles happen higher up the pitch. He is also functioning more as a playmaker in charge of holding possession and forwarding it as compared to how he was functioning at Ajax.

Another point that the stats does not show is that FDJ's positioning off-the-ball is very good. With just good positioning, he can force opponents into channels covered by his defending team mates or mistakes. Unfortunately successful positioning is a indirect impact on the opponent, which cannot be shown via stats.
 
We would be making a mistake if we didn't sign a DM with De Jong, unless Garner can do a job there.
 
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