Why United shouldn’t settle so quickly for Poch over Hag

[CanadianUtd]

*Disclaimer: not saying Poch is shit.



Everyone knows what Poch brings to the table. He gets players playing an exciting style of football irregardless of results (aka for better or worse). It’s why he’s prone and known to having bad stretches with his teams which doesn’t seem like a recipe for long term sustainability for the top of the top clubs like United.

Ole brought us the right mindset and turned the ship around; tactically he was out of his depth. Poch would bring much better offensive flow; however he’s known to be a bottler. Sort of the inverse José you can say. Of all the pros and cons or things these managers lack, Ten Hag has a mixture of all the pros with virtually no signs of the cons or at least very limited in comparison. Another thing is Ten Hag could truly be an up and coming manager prodigy to match the likes of a Pep or Klopp. Poch we know is good but a tier or 2 below them.

…it’s also at least a bit of a worry Poch is so easily ready to run away from the challenge at PSG. Seems he’s having troubles managing players/egos, along with their board, which is exactly what he’d have to face at United. Ultimately Ten Hag excites me more having more managerial potential to unearth and become someone truly special to which he+United could say they are the creators of a potentially great project/new era. I feel like if United secure Poch mid szn, it’ll be because it’s the easier thing to do simple as that.


Maybe I’m wrong who knows. It’s that in all honesty, Ten Hag seems to make most sense in terms of longevity and sustainability. If Poch were to be hired tomorrow I wouldn’t be mad - glad in fact seeing the state the club is in. But it would annoy me had it become known later on through reports or whatnot that United went with Poch because it was the easiest path when they could’ve got Ten Hag had they been a little patient.

 

[Keyser]

Definitely needed another thread

 

[Relevated]

Problem at the moment:
Good players but poor tactician as manager.


Solution:
Bring in good tactician who can take us further

Tactics are universal in football and Ajax equals tactics

Ten hag is a good tactician

Bring in Ten Hag, a good tactician, who can guide these good players.


Whats so difficult

 

[Womp]

Ten Hag is far my preferred choice, but I just don't think the board give a feck. They will go with Poch.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Definitely needed another thread

And all to repeat the same tired "Poch is known to be a bottler" routine, too.

 

[VP89]

I think Ten Hag is a very good manager capable of great things. But we can only go by his Dutch achievements which presents a big risk.

 

[VP89]

Problem at the moment:
Good players but poor tactician as manager.


Solution:
Bring in good tactician who can take us further

Tactics are universal in football and Ajax equals tactics

Ten hag is a good tactician

Bring in Ten Hag, a good tactician, who can guide these good players.


Whats so difficult

You are insinuating here that Poch is not an adequate tactician.

 

[dinostar77]

Poch is a very good manager. End of.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I think Ten Hag is a very good manager capable of great things. But we can only go by his Dutch achievements which presents a big risk.

He has managed in Europe as well, look at Ajax' campaigns in Europe and not just the results.

Look at the performance in those matches, players that were injured, decisions from referees.

 

[TMDaines]

*Disclaimer: not saying Poch is shit.



Everyone knows what Poch brings to the table. He gets players playing an exciting style of football irregardless of results (aka for better or worse). It’s why he’s prone and known to having bad stretches with his teams which doesn’t seem like a recipe for long term sustainability for the top of the top clubs like United.

Ole brought us the right mindset and turned the ship around; tactically he was out of his depth. Poch would bring much better offensive flow; however he’s known to be a bottler. Sort of the inverse José you can say. Of all the pros and cons or things these managers lack, Ten Hag has a mixture of all the pros with virtually no signs of the cons or at least very limited in comparison. Another thing is Ten Hag could truly be an up and coming manager prodigy to match the likes of a Pep or Klopp. Poch we know is good but a tier or 2 below them.

…it’s also at least a bit of a worry Poch is so easily ready to run away from the challenge at PSG. Seems he’s having troubles managing players/egos, along with their board, which is exactly what he’d have to face at United. Ultimately Ten Hag excites me more having more managerial potential to unearth and become someone truly special to which he+United could say they are the creators of a potentially great project/new era. I feel like if United secure Poch mid szn, it’ll be because it’s the easier thing to do simple as that.


Maybe I’m wrong who knows. It’s that in all honesty, Ten Hag seems to make most sense in terms of longevity and sustainability. If Poch were to be hired tomorrow I wouldn’t be mad - glad in fact seeing the state the club is in. But it would annoy me had it become known later on through reports or whatnot that United went with Poch because it was the easiest path when they could’ve got Ten Hag had they been a little patient.

You might feel differently at 19:45 tonight.

 

[altodevil]

This will be locked/merged - but I think it will hold up in a few years.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Ten Hag has worked under the sort of upper management which is exactly what we lack at United - or so many would say. How he'd fare as the kind of old school manager United have favoured until now - is anyone's guess, really. It's a considerable X-factor at any rate - adding to the gamble aspect of offering him the job.

Poch would seemingly be better suited to the manager role at United - as it stands.

However, we shouldn't keep on hiring managers the way we've done since Fergie retired. So, there's that.

Put it like this - our priority should be to replace Woody with VDS. Then we can take it from there.

 

[VP89]

He has managed in Europe as well, look at Ajax' campaigns in Europe and not just the results.

Look at the performance in those matches, players that were injured, decisions from referees.

I am, and I am comparing to Poch and I am not seeing how one is more of a sure thing over the other.

Worth noting European CL football is different to the Premier League. Not talking about quality here but just the ability to adapt to varying different styles on a week by week basis.

But on the European front, what did Ten Hag achieve in the CL that Poch did not, that can then be transcended to insinuate we should definitely opt for him instead?

 

[littlepeasoup]

If Ten Hag wants to manage United he needs to let it be known he can make himself available now, much like it seems Poch is doing. We'll have to pay Ajax, but in comparison to all the money we've spanked up the wall in the past few seasons, it'll seem like peanuts.

It works both ways though - people seem to be desperate for him to manage us, but also we need to see him being desperate for it as well. Football is fickle, and despite his obvious abilities and growing stature, managers can fall out of fashion quickly.

 

[MonkeysMagic]

When it comes to achievements, both Poch and ETH are comparable. The question is, which has the higher ceiling in terms of accomplishment. I know what you will get with Poch, and the board being so risk averse will go with that decision.

Will we be regretting this decision in couple of yrs when ETH is at City/Liv? One thing our board is synonymous with is regrets!

 

[VP89]

When it comes to achievements, both Poch and ETH are comparable. The question is, which has the higher ceiling in terms of accomplishment. I know what you will get with Poch, and the board being so risk averse will go with that decision.

Will we be regretting this decision in couple of yrs when ETH is at City/Liv? One thing our board is synonymous with is regrets!

I don't think anyone knows what they will get because neither have been given a proper crack at a top club. Poch is with PSG now, fine in his group and 11 points clear of the top and wants to leave. Ten Hag is doing his best work at Ajax but that's not the same as operating at Manchester United.

 

[CanadianUtd]

You might feel differently at 19:45 tonight.

This will be locked/merged - but I think it will hold up in a few years.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Ten Hag is probably a better option than Pochettino, yes. But he's not available untill summer. Seems like Poch is, hence we're going for him. It also remains to be seen whether Ten Hag fancies us (our structure) at all.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I am, and I am comparing to Poch and I am not seeing how one is more of a sure thing over the other.

Worth noting European CL football is different to the Premier League. Not talking about quality here but just the ability to adapt to varying different styles on a week by week basis.

But on the European front, what did Ten Hag achieve in the CL that Poch did not, that can then be transcended to insinuate we should definitely opt for him instead?

Poch beat him in the semi-final even, Spurs were fantastic in that return leg and probably deserved to go through. However the football Ajax played over the whole campaign, and especially with the means of both teams, Ten Hag was more impressive. Other than that, all Poch's campaigns in Europe were quite unimpressive for the quality of his squad, even in the Europa League. I am sure sometimes they might have deserved more than they got, but it isnt great.

Erik Ten Hag has a better record in terms of win percentages. His 1st campaign was fantastic as is his current. Ajax got robbed in 19/20 vs Chelsea I'd say, and fell short against Getafe (deservedly lost, teams was also in very poor form).

In 20/21 poor finishing, injuries and some naivety hunt them vs Atalanta with 2 very good performances against Liverpool where Ajax could and should have received more. In the EL they battered Roma twice, but poor finishing again (no Haller), no Onana killed it.

I know it seems like a bunch of excuses, and it probably is, but Poch's team hasnt generally had this performance level over such an extended period of time and that is Poch with far more resources. Ultimately, results will follow from good performance levels in the long run, unless the quality of the players is just bad, the team is naive/lacks finishing and injuries.

The same thing with Liverpool, the caf generally thought we were better than Liverpool in 20/21 cause we were ranked higher. Their performance level was much better but they just had a freak injury crisis, as soon as that was over, they had a better record than us and spanked us by 9-2 in 2 matches at Old Trafford.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

so a manager desperately wanting the job, so much so that he’d leave a top side mid season for it, is somehow turned into a negative against him

Only on the caf.

For what it’s worth, if United go for Poch and not Ten Hag, it’a because he’s their number one choice and has been for a few years, not because he’s “easiest”.

 

[Ludens the Red]

If only there was a way you could hire a manager. Decide later he isn’t for you and then hire a new one.
Giving them three years and half a billion is not a must despite what United do and what half the cafe says.

 

[balaks]

You guys will be very fortunate to get Poch if he comes - you would absolutely love the guy.

 

[VP89]

Poch beat him in the semi-final even, Spurs were fantastic in that return leg and probably deserved to go through. However the football Ajax played over the whole campaign, and especially with the means of both teams, Ten Hag was more impressive. Other than that, all Poch's campaigns in Europe were quite unimpressive for the quality of his squad, even in the Europa League. I am sure sometimes they might have deserved more than they got, but it isnt great.

Erik Ten Hag has a better record in terms of win percentages. His 1st campaign was fantastic as is his current. Ajax got robbed in 19/20 vs Chelsea I'd say, and fell short against Getafe (deservedly lost, teams was also in very poor form).

In 20/21 poor finishing, injuries and some naivety hunt them vs Atalanta with 2 very good performances against Liverpool where Ajax could and should have received more. In the EL they battered Roma twice, but poor finishing again (no Haller), no Onana killed it.

I know it seems like a bunch of excuses, and it probably is, but Poch's team hasnt generally had this performance level over such an extended period of time and that is Poch with far more resources. Ultimately, results will follow from good performance levels in the long run, unless the quality of the players is just bad, the team is naive/lacks finishing and injuries.

The same thing with Liverpool, the caf generally thought we were better than Liverpool in 20/21 cause we were ranked higher. Their performance level was much better but they just had a freak injury crisis, as soon as that was over, they had a better record than us and spanked us by 9-2 in 2 matches at Old Trafford.

I am sure if we really dug into context we can find reasons for Poch's short comings in Europe too. What Poch did to get to the final was pretty incredible and I think both managers have great pedigree.

My points are also about how Ten Hag is going to fare at Manchester United when the infrastructure of Overmars/VDS is stripped from him - is he going to be the same? Can he adapt to oppositions like Poch can? Because in the Premier League you will have to.

Poch did beat some very good teams in Europe. As I said before he's a manager who was so young and inexerpeinced, it was almost inevitable the European games would stutter in his early campaigns. He would get thrashed by Dortmund before comfortably beating them in the next campaigns. He would go on to beat big teams like Real Madrid, Man City etc. So he obviously has developing pedigree in Europe.

It just brings me back to my general question, what has Ten Hag actually done to warrant waiting for over Poch? He is actually not proven in England at all so in many ways there is added risk.

 

[CanadianUtd]

However the football Ajax played over the whole campaign, and especially with the means of both teams, Ten Hag was more impressive. Other than that, all Poch's campaigns in Europe were quite unimpressive for the quality of his squad, even in the Europa League. I am sure sometimes they might have deserved more than they got, but it isnt great.

I know it seems like a bunch of excuses, and it probably is, but Poch's team hasnt generally had this performance level over such an extended period of time and that is Poch with far more resources.

I feel the same way.

so a manager desperately wanting the job, so much so that he’d leave a top side mid season for it, is somehow turned into a negative against him

Only on the caf.

No one’s said that. It’s a question of a better suited option if the club waits a little longer.

…would you take idunno Lukaku at a moments notice or wait on a Lewandowski? That’s sort of what’s at stake here.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I feel the same way.

No one’s said that. It’s a question of a better suited option if the club waits a little longer.

…would you take idunno Lukaku at a moments notice or wait on a Lewandowski? That’s sort of what’s at stake here.

Nar, I’m fairly certain Poch has been United’s number one choice for a couple of years to succeed Ole. If the club had to wait till Summer for both, they’d likely be picking Poch regardless.

I think both would be good options.

 

[Sandikan]

Only our fans would equate Poch's seeming mad keen desire to manage us with "walking away" from PSG.
Talk about negative spin.

 

[Oranges038]

Definitely needed another thread

There was about a million Ole threads for every thought people had.

Only right that his possible replacements get the same treatment.

 

[Damien]

That is all assuming that Ten Hag would want to come here - personally I think City have already moved and secured him for 2023.

We've got a situation where Poch wants us now. If we don't "settle" and decide to hire an interim manager to wait until summer to try and get Ten Hag only for him to reject us, we would then have to look for another manager, Poch might no longer be available, Pogba gone on a free, lots of deadwood to deal with and if the interim didn't do well we might not even have European football to offer prospective signings.

Ten Hag is top of my list too but I don't want to see us pretty much give up on the rest of the season by appointing an interim when there's a very good manager who wants to come here now and we can still fight for something.

 

[Mainoldo]

Poch is number one so it doesn’t matter how much you man’s like Ten.

 

[Udmaster]

I don't understand this obsession with ten hag, its becoming a bit annoying.
Free flowing football was enshrined into the DNA of Ajax right from way back and Ten hag flowed with it just the same way frank de boer and Koeman were exceptional there until they faced the litmus test outside the Dutch league.
Ten hag is a more risky option than Poch, Ajax and Manutd are not run the same way.
Poch did remarkably well at Southampton and Tottenham despite a very tight budget, he will achieve great things here ,we have the players and open wallet.
A good and flexible tactician he is and a sound developer of young talents.
For those calling him a bottler, SAF bottled two UCL finals to Pep, remember.

And besides what if we stay with Carrick while waiting for ten hag in the summer and he (ten hag) rejects us in the summer for a well runned club like Bayern or Juventus,
What will we do especially if by then poch must have been poached by another club while we were waiting for ten hag.
You guys will still come here to wail over it.
Lets adopt the Chelsea pattern, get the best available option at the moment and FIRE if the results and trophies doesn't come

Be a real fan and support Poch to succeed if he is appointed.
We nag a lot

 

[AjaxCunian]

I am sure if we really dug into context we can find reasons for Poch's short comings in Europe too. What Poch did to get to the final was pretty incredible and I think both managers have great pedigree.

My points are also about how Ten Hag is going to fare at Manchester United when the infrastructure of Overmars/VDS is stripped from him - is he going to be the same? Can he adapt to oppositions like Poch can? Because in the Premier League you will have to.

Poch did beat some very good teams in Europe. As I said before he's a manager who was so young and inexerpeinced, it was almost inevitable the European games would stutter in his early campaigns. He would get thrashed by Dortmund before comfortably beating them in the next campaigns. He would go on to beat big teams like Real Madrid, Man City etc. So he obviously has developing pedigree in Europe.

It just brings me back to my general question, what has Ten Hag actually done to warrant waiting for over Poch? He is actually not proven in England at all so in many ways there is added risk.

The infrastructure at Ajax is not very different to that at United, Poch doesnt like the power Leonardo has, whilst at United Murthough and Fletcher with Woodward/Arnold - Judge above them have the power.

Ultimately Poch got sacked at Spurs and has failed to win anything, also his football over time got worse which is something to hold against him. Ten Hag has had Ajax playing brilliant football in the Eredivisie (easier league, but still to a level which has been very rare) and Europe whilst a rebuild with far lesser resources. The coaching of that team seem greater than the coaching Poch has achieved at Spurs. I think that's the main thing.

Most fear that Poch whilst decent and good, will never ever be of the level of Guardiola/Klopp, the thinking that Ten Hag, whilst not yet as proven, could be of that level. And this PL proven thing, is becoming a bit, meh. Mourinho was PL proven, Tuchel wasn't PL proven etc etc, fact is, the PL proven Poch got sacked at Spurs which makes you question what he exactly proved.

 

[CanadianUtd]

It just brings me back to my general question, what has Ten Hag actually done to warrant waiting for over Poch?

Personally feel Poch has more flash when it comes to his offensive, balls fo the wall, run-and-gun style which what he’ll live/die with whereas Ten Hag has more intricate patterns and systems which is more detailed for player specifics while being able to adjust with his knowings of how to work around certain opponents and such.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Absolutely delighted if the 2 choices for our next manager are either ETH or Poch. Personally prefer Poch. Ive always thought he'd be a perfect fit for us but I wouldn't kick ETH out of bed for farting either.

 

[CanadianUtd]

The infrastructure at Ajax is not very different to that at United, Poch doesnt like the power Leonardo has, whilst at United Murthough and Fletcher with Woodward/Arnold - Judge above them have the power.

Ultimately Poch got sacked at Spurs and has failed to win anything, also his football over time got worse which is something to hold against him. Ten Hag has had Ajax playing brilliant football in the Eredivisie (easier league, but still to a level which has been very rare) and Europe whilst a rebuild with far lesser resources. The coaching of that team seem greater than the coaching Poch has achieved at Spurs. I think that's the main thing.

Most fear that Poch whilst decent and good, will never ever be of the level of Guardiola/Klopp, the thinking that Ten Hag, whilst not yet as proven, could be of that level. And this PL proven thing, is becoming a bit, meh. Mourinho was PL proven, Tuchel wasn't PL proven etc etc, fact is, the PL proven Poch got sacked at Spurs which makes you question what he exactly proved.

Nailed it!

 

[KingCavani]

And all to repeat the same tired "Poch is known to be a bottler" routine, too.

When one the most high profile games of either man’s career was Ten Hag’s Ajax bottling spectacularly against Poch’s Spurs.

Couldn’t make this shit up.

Poch now > Ten Hag in June. Get him in.

 

[Womp]

That is all assuming that Ten Hag would want to come here - personally I think City have already moved and secured him for 2023.

We've got a situation where Poch wants us now. If we don't "settle" and decide to hire an interim manager to wait until summer to try and get Ten Hag only for him to reject us, we would then have to look for another manager, Poch might no longer be available, Pogba gone on a free, lots of deadwood to deal with and if the interim didn't do well we might not even have European football to offer prospective signings.

Ten Hag is top of my list too but I don't want to see us pretty much give up on the rest of the season by appointing an interim when there's a very good manager who wants to come here now and we can still fight for something.

That's essentially risking medium to long term success for possible short term success. Let's be clear - one of the biggest question marks about Poch is his lack of trophies. It isn't too controversial an opinion to say even if he was hired, there is a very likely chance we finish the season trophyless when taking into account his personal history and our current predicament.

I think the club as a whole needs to be modernised, something a modern coach would be able to implement, whether that's Ten Hag or otherwise. Otherwise we potentially risk making the incorrect managerial decision again, wasting another 3 years or so.

All managers come with risk of course, but I just think signing a manager like Ten Hag, who has already illustrated he can implement a progressive style, over a more pragmatic manager in Poch who has a history of winning no trophies is probably less of a risk.

I'm a big fan of Poch btw, I think what he did at Southampton even before Spurs was very impressive, I just don't think he is what we need now and I'd personally be happy to wait until the end of the season for a more progressive coach.

 

[Plant0x84]

Poch is inevitable now. All the news around our search is pointing one way and it isn’t to Ajax.

 

[Santoryo]

I'm confident most on these boards didn't much about Ten Hag nor watched his Ajax team before a few weeks ago when his name became hot in here.

 

[CanadianUtd]

Poch now > Ten Hag in June. Get him in.

Short term, yes

Long term, no

 

[VP89]

The infrastructure at Ajax is not very different to that at United, Poch doesnt like the power Leonardo has, whilst at United Murthough and Fletcher with Woodward/Arnold - Judge above them have the power.

Our infrastructure is nothing like PSG if this is what you're insinuating. We give manager as much autonomy as is feasible to build out the squad. Leonardo on the other hand is a rogue nutter who doesn't give 2 shits of what his manager has as a positional preference let alone player reference. This is a gripe that Poch and Tuchel have both had.

Ultimately Poch got sacked at Spurs and has failed to win anything, also his football over time got worse which is something to hold against him.

He got sacked for falling away from top 4. If he had won a token FA Cup that would not have changed matters. But his squad did not play well because it was in a dire need of a refresh. I agree there were a couple of big signings that were bad, like Ndombele for example, but he barely had much time to bed him in.

Ten Hag has had Ajax playing brilliant football in the Eredivisie (easier league, but still to a level which has been very rare) and Europe whilst a rebuild with far lesser resources. The coaching of that team seem greater than the coaching Poch has achieved at Spurs. I think that's the main thing.

I think this is really presumptuous. It's a lot easier to look formidable in Eredivisie with Ajax than it is to keep abreast of City/Liverpool/United/Chelsea who spend multiples more and have more resources themselves. All whilst moving stadiums too which is far from easy.

Most fear that Poch whilst decent and good, will never ever be of the level of Guardiola/Klopp, the thinking that Ten Hag, whilst not yet as proven, could be of that level. And this PL proven thing, is becoming a bit, meh. Mourinho was PL proven, Tuchel wasn't PL proven etc etc, fact is, the PL proven Poch got sacked at Spurs which makes you question what he exactly proved.

This is just the fickle nature of our viewers. A lot are casual watchers of Ten Hag. If he has an early exit from the CL against a half decent side you'll see the wind blow in the complete other direction. When Poch reached the CL final he was the Ten Hag then. All you can do is really look at the pedigree of both and realize there's very little between them.