The fact that even the Championship pays wages better than most top leagues in Europe there is not much reason to. The reason all the foreigners are in England is because it pays so well not because they want to "broaden their horizon" or something like that. If other countries had richer leagues you would see more English players going abroad.
Why young Brits can’t succeed in the EPL?
- Thread starter The Outsider
- Start date
Or.. Maybe.. They're just not good enough?
Back in the 80s unless you're manchester united any half decent youth footballers can get their chance, the clubs dont have much to risk, competition is low, now every English man competes with global footballer.
It's far more complicated than simply not mingle with the big boys enough
Pundits and media in general spout same shit from time to time, young English talents not getting enough chance. I believe thats bs tbh. feck off from England and take chance somewhere else. Sadly think, they rather go play to championship for Hull for example (no offense) then go abroad and play for Ajax, Benfica etc. Teams who actually fight for titles in their own leagues and on top of that they taking part in CL/EL where you gain experience.
If Sanchez (CB from Ajax joined Spurs) was playing for championship team, he wouldnt be in Spurs now. Instead he played for Ajax, got exposed by reaching EL final and had good game vs us.
In this kind of topics, i mention same example. If Matic was English he would never rejoin Chelsea nor he would join us. He would leave Chelsea and join some lower PL team fighting relegation or join some championship team. Instead he went to Benfica, coach placed trust him there, he fought for top spots in Portugal and earned his return in Chelsea by being one of better players in EL final again vs Chelsea. Guess its easier to choose more money in PL and below, stay in England and then complain how you didnt get a chance.
There are plenty examples of interesting paths of fgn players before coming to PL.
If Sanchez (CB from Ajax joined Spurs) was playing for championship team, he wouldnt be in Spurs now. Instead he played for Ajax, got exposed by reaching EL final and had good game vs us.
In this kind of topics, i mention same example. If Matic was English he would never rejoin Chelsea nor he would join us. He would leave Chelsea and join some lower PL team fighting relegation or join some championship team. Instead he went to Benfica, coach placed trust him there, he fought for top spots in Portugal and earned his return in Chelsea by being one of better players in EL final again vs Chelsea. Guess its easier to choose more money in PL and below, stay in England and then complain how you didnt get a chance.
There are plenty examples of interesting paths of fgn players before coming to PL.
Didi Hamaan said exactly the same thing a good few years ago. Shame no one took heed.
Wild theory. Young English talent ask for higher wages. The fans are more likely to get attached to the player and this gives the player leverage for a better contract. It also makes the player difficult to sell. Whereas with foreign young players, they may be less demanding on their wages and are easier to sell on if necessary.
@R'hllor But, then there are guys like Huth and Fabio who signed for English clubs at young ages and stayed around England after leaving Chelsea and Manchester United.
When I was younger I used to go to reserve matches quite a lot, and there would always be at least one first team player in the team. Whether they were coming back from injury or just needed match practice (seem to remember Ole being in there quite a bit, and Cantona when he first came back from his ban). Does that still happen? Nowadays players (and fans) are so precious I imagine it wouldn't go down well. Can you imagine people finding out Martial was played in the reserves?
Anyway, back to the point, do the youngsters regularly have a first team influence or not? No doubt a good percentage are English/British, and seeing how someone ahead of them plays would surely be a great advantage.
Anyway, back to the point, do the youngsters regularly have a first team influence or not? No doubt a good percentage are English/British, and seeing how someone ahead of them plays would surely be a great advantage.
Luke Shaw has been playing with the reserves for a while now. It still happens.
Good to know. They might teach him a thing or two
Is Lingard any better than Albrighton? Wes Morgan and Huth are steady premiership players. Huth is a decent player who would get a game for both Arsenal and Liverpool. He’s also a better central defender than Daily Blind.
Yup, while is true in the Championship they earn a lot of money, also true if they go to Bundesliga clubs, Ajax or Benfica types they will have Champions League or Europa League experience and be more exposed against international competition, and if they are good the PL clubs will scout them, if they are good enough everybody wins.
Probably another thing they should try but I don't know if in England is possible is doing the same thing as Real Madrid or Barcelona, put buy back clauses on talented players who move abroad, lile Madrid did with Morata or Barcelona with Delofeu, if they raise their level loan them with a possible adavantage to the club who signs him, win win situation.
Good example there with Matic, know very well his situation, belonged to Chelsea, was at Vitesse where he played almost as a 8/10, spent almost a year on the shadow of Javi Garcia and Jorge Jesus prepared him to play as number 6.
The rest is history, two and a half years there, Europa League final vs Chelsea, Champions League Group stages and a tactical freak like JJ who probably was as hard on him as Mourinho and he returned to Chelsea with much more baggage.
Of course that only was possible as part of the David Luis deal.
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Yes Lingard is better than Albrighton and no Huth is not better than Blind and he would not get games for Arsenal or even Liverpool.
Not nearly as many minutes and he may develop more in a smaller club playing more minutes. Obviously you want him in your squad and he may develop without the lack of minutes but will he develop as much as if he was playing every game for 90 minutes? I'd argue no.
He has been a consistent starter for us this season. You can argue that he has not been playing the right position but, you can not really argue with the amount of playing time.
But that does not make sense with all the respect, he played more minutes last season than in the previous one, and this season is playing more than in the previous, makes sense for players like Tammy Abraham or Loftus Cheek, who didn't had enough space to compete.
Guess someone has the same theory as me
He is our only player to appear in every game this season. He’s already played in three cup finals for us. He is getting lots of minutes at pretty much the highest level there is. Not sure why it would be better for him to go anywhere else.
Don't refute the idea, he is not even playing for England and nothing
Why aren't there more Brits abroad? Of all the major footballing nations, I feel the UK exports the least talent in the world, whether we're talking youth or established players. Sancho being a rare occurrence, I'm curious as to why that is?
Because England has the richest league in the world, where they pay more than the other top leagues.
Yep when Serie A was top dog the likes of Platt, Gasciogne and Ince tried their luck in Serie A.
Carlton Palmer, and before Ray Wilkins, Souness, Rush or if you add when English clubs were banned from Europe, Lineker and Mark Hughes to Barcelona, Glenn Hoddle in Monaco, Chris Waddle at Olympique Marseille, people want to have the best players in the world, the best managers, the richest clubs and at the same time no foreign players and managers?
Impossible equation.
Why should they start for top Premier League sides. Some interesting comments from one of the journalists on the Sunday Supplement show about this, when he mentioned that in the Champions League Final in 2006 when Barcelona beat Arsenal, 24 years old Xavi & 22 year old Iniesta were on the bench, whilst a promising 19 year old youngster called Messi was in the squad. This was just before all three became world class players, & one of the best ever in Messi's case, but there wasn't an entitlement for them to be drafted into the first team, with even Messi way older than all of the U17 English team. Weird sentiment.
There is a lot of mention of Phil Foden of Man City, & should he get in their side. So who are they going to drop for him David Silva, De Bruyne perhaps, Fernandinho, Sane etc. I can just imagine that happening & the game goes wrong, & Guardiola getting attacked for playing inexperience.
I am not sure of the answer but when three Premiership managers are gone by end of October with less than 10 matches played, & one has three league game, I don't expect any changes anytime soon. This is hardly Football Manger.
There is a lot of mention of Phil Foden of Man City, & should he get in their side. So who are they going to drop for him David Silva, De Bruyne perhaps, Fernandinho, Sane etc. I can just imagine that happening & the game goes wrong, & Guardiola getting attacked for playing inexperience.
I am not sure of the answer but when three Premiership managers are gone by end of October with less than 10 matches played, & one has three league game, I don't expect any changes anytime soon. This is hardly Football Manger.
And....
They don't really get a chance of first team football at the highest level.
If I could be arse I could list loads of young Liverpool lads who had great potential and went out on loan to clubs like Crewe , Preston etc and have never been seen again. Whilst average foreign players are bought and play in the first team. This has sadly been the case for far too long.
They don't really get a chance of first team football at the highest level.
If I could be arse I could list loads of young Liverpool lads who had great potential and went out on loan to clubs like Crewe , Preston etc and have never been seen again. Whilst average foreign players are bought and play in the first team. This has sadly been the case for far too long.
managers these days cant risk to play these kids because of money and the fear of the sack is to great, sad but true.
think forden, nmecha, might get some cup games for city this season, not sure gomes will,
think forden, nmecha, might get some cup games for city this season, not sure gomes will,
Brilliant post. Especially the points in regards to managers giving opportunities to youngsters. I don't understand the hate Pochettino and Koeman seem to get on here. They have the right mentality when it comes to how football should be approached. The game isn't only about winning trophies, there's a lot more to it . Watch any SAF documentary and he always says the first thing he wanted to do upon coming to Utd was improve the youth system, because that's how a club develops, trophies are a consequence of that.
You also have to wonder how well this practice of playing fewer and fewer younger players is serving the managers in general. The average managerial tenure in the PL is probably at an all time low because the managers and indeed the owners don't try to build a club properly. They apply a scatter gun approach to big money signings and it hardly ever works long term. It's the club owners and the managers who need to go back to basics and that will automatically improve the fortunes of both the club and the young players.
Xavi was only bench because he just came back from injury. And Messi was out with injury.
And this is bollocks.
Zlatan didn't leave Sweden aged 16, he was playing for his home town club until the age of 20. Zinedine Zidane didn't leave France as a 12 year old, he was still playing there aged 24. Cristiano Ronaldo got 25 games in the Portugese Primeira Liga, aged 16 and 17, before moving here.
Of course there are exceptions; Messi, Fabregas, Griezmann. You know why these players left their country though? Because they were sort after. If Barcelona came after Wilfred Zaha, do you think he'd be playing for Crystal Palace? Still the vast majority of Europeans don't go trecking across the world looking for work.
I mean, this is apparently Ajax's youth academy this year.
So when are we saying the young Brits should leave the country looking for opportunities? 17 is too young for the vast majority. 18-20 seems right, right?
But... this is the problem. 18-20 is the exact time when our young players are stifled. They aren't breaking into the first team and attracting suitors. Harry Kane broke into Spurs team aged 20. And he's Harry Kane. Garry Cahill was 21 when he broke into the Aston Villa team.
Our now best players couldn't get a sniff in second rate teams, even a decade ago.
The problem is that it's very difficult for a manager to choose what are in reality inferior players over seasoned experienced pro's. At what point can a modern manager safely say "actually I can afford not to win this game and therefore will try a couple of youngsters"?
I think there is one obvious solution and that's to trial the top 6 have their U23s entered into the football league
I think there is one obvious solution and that's to trial the top 6 have their U23s entered into the football league
Players don't get playing time because they're not good enough. Do you think Alex Ferguson wouldn't have had another Co92 if he could've? The problem was the players weren't good enough. Get rid of home-grown quotas completely, allow as many foreign players to come here as they want and the good youngsters will still break through.
Like Scott Canham?
Sorry, I don't see why lower league football should be wrecked to assist the Premier League sides. Why should lower league teams have their divisions filled with meaningless teams & pointless games. If they want to play their U23 in the leagues then they can apply at the appropriate levels, which is level 10 & below I believe. No reserves leagues above that level.
There are routes young players have always had. One is to go out on loan at lower league sides like Beckham & co did, gaining experience. The other is to play in the reserves or youth sides. The problem with the latter is they are not as relevant as in the past, so suggest bringing back the reserve leagues the top sides conveniently got rid off. They were a good way for young players to gain experience by playing with older players.
I had to google Scott Canham but yes.
Its because they refuse to play abroad. They seem happy to sit around on fat paychecks, being prima madonnas and complaining. I agree with what Pogba did. He saw he wasn't getting the opportunities, doesn't matter why. But his development would have stalled. So he went and proved himself elsewhere.
And loans are not the same.
Most of the young players need to move for an extended period of time. Where they don't gave the comfort of just coming back when they fail. If I was a young player wanting to be the best I'd spend a year each in a few countries, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, Holland etc
And loans are not the same.
Most of the young players need to move for an extended period of time. Where they don't gave the comfort of just coming back when they fail. If I was a young player wanting to be the best I'd spend a year each in a few countries, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, Holland etc
I don't see why they would 'wreck' the lower leagues. They would be treated as teams like any other that could be promoted/relegated etc....there is also a chance crowds might increase as Utd u23s vs Bury might draw a few thousand.
You could also introduce a rule stipulating that at least 10 of the Match Day squad must be UK or Irish nationals to ensure they don't just stock up on cheap foreign players
It's not going to be for everyone but I actually think it's the only way. I don't like the Loan system. Utd have a world class coaching set-up and want to play a certain style of football. Why would we want to trust them with lower league coaching staff for a year?
I remember reading griezmann left France because he wasn't get any opportunities due to his size, not because he was sought after.And this is bollocks.
Zlatan didn't leave Sweden aged 16, he was playing for his home town club until the age of 20. Zinedine Zidane didn't leave France as a 12 year old, he was still playing there aged 24. Cristiano Ronaldo got 25 games in the Portugese Primeira Liga, aged 16 and 17, before moving here.
Of course there are exceptions; Messi, Fabregas, Griezmann. You know why these players left their country though? Because they were sort after. If Barcelona came after Wilfred Zaha, do you think he'd be playing for Crystal Palace? Still the vast majority of Europeans don't go trecking across the world looking for work.
I mean, this is apparently Ajax's youth academy this year.
So when are we saying the young Brits should leave the country looking for opportunities? 17 is too young for the vast majority. 18-20 seems right, right?
But... this is the problem. 18-20 is the exact time when our young players are stifled. They aren't breaking into the first team and attracting suitors. Harry Kane broke into Spurs team aged 20. And he's Harry Kane. Garry Cahill was 21 when he broke into the Aston Villa team.
Our now best players couldn't get a sniff in second rate teams, even a decade ago.
Messi had that problems with his hormones and I don't think his family could afford it so it was more like Barca jumped on that chance to get him. I may be wrong but believe this is how it all unfolded.
We can disagree then.
I'm confused at the point you're trying to make? That it's silly to push for English players to leave England at 16-18 and using the fully Dutch Ajax youth squad to show that no other European players make those moves?And this is bollocks.
Zlatan didn't leave Sweden aged 16, he was playing for his home town club until the age of 20. Zinedine Zidane didn't leave France as a 12 year old, he was still playing there aged 24. Cristiano Ronaldo got 25 games in the Portugese Primeira Liga, aged 16 and 17, before moving here.
Of course there are exceptions; Messi, Fabregas, Griezmann. You know why these players left their country though? Because they were sort after. If Barcelona came after Wilfred Zaha, do you think he'd be playing for Crystal Palace? Still the vast majority of Europeans don't go trecking across the world looking for work.
I mean, this is apparently Ajax's youth academy this year.
So when are we saying the young Brits should leave the country looking for opportunities? 17 is too young for the vast majority. 18-20 seems right, right?
because that squad there isn't complete. The Ajax u19 squad this year https://www.transfermarkt.com/-rjo-ajax-amsterdam-u19/startseite/verein/2824 is actually notoriously foreign. The squad contains 1 Dane, 1 Brazilian, 1 Australian, 1 Fin, 2 Hungarians, 2 South africans, 1 American, 1 Pole, 1 Romanian.
Not sure if that was the point you were making anyway
A- The EPL money is distributed too fairly. That's good for clubs but its not good to talent as smaller EPL clubs can afford buying top quality instead of giving kids a go. It also allow kids to become too rich too quickly. Its not a good idea to spoil kids especially when you're expecting them to push harder then ever to become better.
B- Reserve football is a joke. Kids are wasting time playing reserve football.
C- First options/buying back fees hasn't yet become popular in the EPL which is a shame. The loaning option gives the smaller club no incentive to develop kids and tend to be used only to add more bodies to the team.
D- Kids in the UK have little incentive to go out of the country. Championship/Lower EPL sides will provide them with enough money to become rich. Why go to Ajax or Valencia and work yourself up the ranks when you can still become rich playing long ball football just few km away from mum's home?
E- The media is ruining young kids. Its first hype them which gives them the impression that they already made it when its not the case only to drop down like a sledgehammer once things don't go according to plan. Januzaj, Shaw, Macheda....the list go on and on.
F- The FA is failing to develop homegrown top level managers. Foreign managers tend to be more comfortable with players of their own culture which of course is bad news with British talent.
B- Reserve football is a joke. Kids are wasting time playing reserve football.
C- First options/buying back fees hasn't yet become popular in the EPL which is a shame. The loaning option gives the smaller club no incentive to develop kids and tend to be used only to add more bodies to the team.
D- Kids in the UK have little incentive to go out of the country. Championship/Lower EPL sides will provide them with enough money to become rich. Why go to Ajax or Valencia and work yourself up the ranks when you can still become rich playing long ball football just few km away from mum's home?
E- The media is ruining young kids. Its first hype them which gives them the impression that they already made it when its not the case only to drop down like a sledgehammer once things don't go according to plan. Januzaj, Shaw, Macheda....the list go on and on.
F- The FA is failing to develop homegrown top level managers. Foreign managers tend to be more comfortable with players of their own culture which of course is bad news with British talent.
A limited # of club that have access to an unlimited pool of players given your financial strength.
All your domestic clubs are financially strong not to have to rely only on their academies, which isn't the case elsewhere.
All your domestic clubs are financially strong not to have to rely only on their academies, which isn't the case elsewhere.