Why young Brits can’t succeed in the EPL?

[Cal?]

A- The EPL money is distributed too fairly. That's good for clubs but its not good to talent as smaller EPL clubs can afford buying top quality instead of giving kids a go. It also allow kids to become too rich too quickly. Its not a good idea to spoil kids especially when you're expecting them to push harder then ever to become better.

B- Reserve football is a joke. Kids are wasting time playing reserve football.

C- First options/buying back fees hasn't yet become popular in the EPL which is a shame. The loaning option gives the smaller club no incentive to develop kids and tend to be used only to add more bodies to the team.

D- Kids in the UK have little incentive to go out of the country. Championship/Lower EPL sides will provide them with enough money to become rich. Why go to Ajax or Valencia and work yourself up the ranks when you can still become rich playing long ball football just few km away from mum's home?

E- The media is ruining young kids. Its first hype them which gives them the impression that they already made it when its not the case only to drop down like a sledgehammer once things don't go according to plan. Januzaj, Shaw, Macheda....the list go on and on.

F- The FA is failing to develop homegrown top level managers. Foreign managers tend to be more comfortable with players of their own culture which of course is bad news with British talent.

Pretty much agree.

A - Weaker team in all the other leagues need to develop their own players, whereas in the Premier League, they just go buy buy buy.

B - Many leagues allow B teams to compete in the lower leagues, better competition -> better players.

D - Especially given the fact that going abroad makes them non-home grown if they make it and come back.

 

[André Dominguez]

This problem is transversal to every league. We have the same kind of discussions season after season here in Portugal aswell. And I'm sure that's also an "issue" in most of other UEFA leagues.

 

[Trizy]

What England need to improve on is the pathway. A disconcerting statistic of last season:
Playing time for domestic U22 players in 2016-17: Ligue 1 -79,062 minutes, La Liga- 37,992 minutes, Bundesliga - 36,001 minutes, Serie A - 21,865 minutes Premier League - 16,532 minutes..

Those stats are a bit misleading though given the financial powerhouse the premier league is compared to those leagues. In England they can afford to purchase a ready made product whereas some clubs have no other choice but to put emphasis on youth players as a source of success and money.

 

[JPRouve]

This problem is transversal to every league. We have the same kind of discussions season after season here in Portugal aswell. And I'm sure that's also an "issue" in most of other UEFA leagues.

In France, we had that problem until recently. The solution came when we finally got rid of the old farts we used to have as managers, the same group of 20-25 managers who were sharing the jobs.

Edit: Also PL football is a business, that's not necessarily true in other leagues where many owners aren't in it for money.

 

[Zlatattack]

A mix of things really.

1. The academies/youth football hasn't produced the same quality of player as other countries (though people in the know suggest the tide has turned).

2. Risk vs reward. Clubs have plenty of money to spend, even the shit clubs. At the same time the league is very competitive and a lot of teams can be easily sucked into the relegation zone. Why take a risk on a youngster, rather than a pro from a different league? You have a budget to buy players, if you choose not and it goes wrong, you take a risk of being accused of being negligent. At the same time as long as you're in the premier league - how many fans/shareholders really care about youth development. We all pay lip service but are happy to turn on them when they're losing us matches.

 

[devilish]

Pretty much agree.

A - Weaker team in all the other leagues need to develop their own players, whereas in the Premier League, they just go buy buy buy.

B - Many leagues allow B teams to compete in the lower leagues, better competition -> better players.

D - Especially given the fact that going abroad makes them non-home grown if they make it and come back.

A- In Italy smaller clubs have to develop their own players but they are also obliged to develop other club's players as well. Their small transfer budgets doesn't allow them to tap for the top players and the idea of having a top young talent from elsewhere for 1-2 years is quite attractive. Many players has spent a year or two on loan including Immobile, Giovinco and Marchisio.

The Italians used to spice things up by allowing clubs joint ownership (compropieta). I am a big fan of it tbh as it benefits everyone. Lets say we sell half Tuanzebe's contract to Southampton for lets say 6m

1- Southampton have in their disposal a top talent for a relatively small price. Unlike a loan, it will be within their interest to develop him as they can make a decent profit out of him in 1-2 years time

2- Tuanzebe will find a club whose willing to invest heavily on his future by giving him plenty of play time.

3- United will be making some profit out of a kid (irrespective whether he makes it in football or not) and had just found a great work placement for their kid to go to.

B- I fully agree and let me add to more. With so many league 1/Championship sides struggling to make ends meet then why on earth would the FA not allow clubs like United to buy them out? Clauses should be set in place like 1 team per club + the club will be obliged to sell them up if/when the feeder club gets promoted to the EPL

D- Rules need to be changed. Id say they should reduce it to 13 years of age. That would allow 16 year olds to leave the country without losing their homegrown talent status

 

[Cal?]

A- In Italy smaller clubs have to develop their own players but they are also obliged to develop other club's players as well. Their small transfer budgets doesn't allow them to tap for the top players and the idea of having a top young talent from elsewhere for 1-2 years is quite attractive. Many players has spent a year or two on loan including Immobile, Giovinco and Marchisio.

The Italians used to spice things up by allowing clubs joint ownership (compropieta). I am a big fan of it tbh as it benefits everyone. Lets say we sell half Tuanzebe's contract to Southampton for lets say 6m

1- Southampton have in their disposal a top talent for a relatively small price. Unlike a loan, it will be within their interest to develop him as they can make a decent profit out of him in 1-2 years time

2- Tuanzebe will find a club whose willing to invest heavily on his future by giving him plenty of play time.

3- United will be making some profit out of a kid (irrespective whether he makes it in football or not) and had just found a great work placement for their kid to go to.

B- I fully agree and let me add to more. With so many league 1/Championship sides struggling to make ends meet then why on earth would the FA not allow clubs like United to buy them out? Clauses should be set in place like 1 team per club + the club will be obliged to sell them up if/when the feeder club gets promoted to the EPL

D- Rules need to be changed. Id say they should reduce it to 13 years of age. That would allow 16 year olds to leave the country without losing their homegrown talent status

Yea, basically the draconian, outdated views of the FA really holds English football back.

B - exactly, except the bolded part is very difficult to implement.

D - again, difficult, Uefa have no incentive to change it.

 

[Ecstatic]

This problem is transversal to every league. We have the same kind of discussions season after season here in Portugal aswell. And I'm sure that's also an "issue" in most of other UEFA leagues.

In France, we had that problem until recently. The solution came when we finally got rid of the old farts we used to have as managers, the same group of 20-25 managers who were sharing the jobs.

Edit: Also PL football is a business, that's not necessarily true in other leagues where many owners aren't in it for money.

Which problem? Not enough young Brits in France and Portugal?

 

[JPRouve]

Which problem? Not enough young Brits in France and Portugal?

I hope that you are doing it on purpose.

 

[André Dominguez]

Which problem? Not enough young Brits in France and Portugal?

Aren't you the smart one?
We were referring to young players, generally speaking, not only young brits.

And to have mandatory rules for clubs to have young brits is hardly the solution. Just look at what the russians did: changed the rules so the clubs would have mandatory russian young players and the results were disastrous. Most of those russian players were just wast of squad space because they were simply not good enough.

Unsrurprisingly, those rules were reverted this year

In Portugal we have that issue year after year, not because we don't have portuguese players at the league, they are in good numbers to be fair, but mainly because the top clubs (Porto, Sporting and Benfica) barely have portuguese players in their squads. And they have some decent emerging talents that are not mature yet to get into the squad. Look at Bernardo Silva case: he was very talented, but Benfica had better solutions in the squad. Big clubs can't gamble too much with their squads, or they will risk to loose titles.

 

[Ecstatic]

I hope that you are doing it on purpose.

Do you think young French players don't get their chance?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Aren't you the smart one?
We were referring to young players, generally speaking, not only young brits.

And to have mandatory rules for clubs to have young brits is hardly the solution. Just look at what the russians did: changed the rules so the clubs would have mandatory russian young players and the results were disastrous. Most of those russian players were just wast of squad space because they were simply not good enough.

Unsrurprisingly, those rules were reverted this year

In Portugal we have that issue year after year, not because we don't have portuguese players at the league, they are in good numbers to be fair, but mainly because the top clubs (Porto, Sporting and Benfica) barely have portuguese players in their squads. And they have some decent emerging talents that are not mature yet to get into the squad. Look at Bernardo Silva case: he was very talented, but Benfica had better solutions in the squad. Big clubs can't gamble too much with their squads, or they will risk to loose titles.

The problem of young English players getting minutes is far worse than any other major nation though, the data backs it up. It isn't necessarily because of player quality either as only Spain has outperformed England in major youth tournaments since 2007 when measured by number of semi-finals reached, Germany have reached the same amount.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41471883

This is the major challenge for England now, getting their young talent enough top flight minutes to develop.

 

[Ecstatic]

Aren't you the smart one?
We were referring to young players, generally speaking, not only young brits.

And to have mandatory rules for clubs to have young brits is hardly the solution. Just look at what the russians did: changed the rules so the clubs would have mandatory russian young players and the results were disastrous. Most of those russian players were just wast of squad space because they were simply not good enough.

Unsrurprisingly, those rules were reverted this year

In Portugal we have that issue year after year, not because we don't have portuguese players at the league, they are in good numbers to be fair, but mainly because the top clubs (Porto, Sporting and Benfica) barely have portuguese players in their squads. And they have some decent emerging talents that are not mature yet to get into the squad. Look at Bernardo Silva case: he was very talented, but Benfica had better solutions in the squad. Big clubs can't gamble too much with their squads, or they will risk to loose titles.

I see

Sure, top clubs generally don't want to invest time in developing young players; which is a pity given the quality of their academies. Always challenging for young players to emerge within a top club.

PSG and Marseille aside for different reasons, French clubs develop their best young players at the highest level for financial considerations.

 

[Ecstatic]

The problem of young English players getting minutes is far worse than any other major nation though, the data backs it up.

Sure, suffice to calculate the % of foreign players in the league.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Like I mentioned before in Holland there is absolutely no issue in terms of getting young domestic players top flight experience yet they are not doing great right now.

 

[JPRouve]

Do you think young French players don't get their chance?

I'm pretty sure that I used the past tense. Until 2011-2012 the idea was that anyone under 21 years old was too young and clubs would purchase players instead of developing them, the philosophy changed for financial reasons and because the younger coaches don't mind using younger players.

 

[OoopsMisclick]

I'm a firm believer that talent will rise to the top regardless. English talent has been underwhelming.

While the money in the PL isn't helping, English lads aren't exactly a prime example when it comes to making good career choices. They prefer to earn that sweet 20k+ p/w at a top PL club, even though it might diminish their changes to reach their potential

 

[The Outsider]

The problem of young English players getting minutes is far worse than any other major nation though, the data backs it up. It isn't necessarily because of player quality either as only Spain has outperformed England in major youth tournaments since 2007 when measured by number of semi-finals reached, Germany have reached the same amount.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41471883

This is the major challenge for England now, getting their young talent enough top flight minutes to develop.

A point I forgot to mention was that by playing kids in the Reserves if the senior pros saw something they liked they often mentioned it to the manager so giving them an added chance of breaking through to the first XI.

 

[TheReligion]

I think young players need to reckognise their current level and go for a team at that level. Wilfred Zaha was performing worse than Chamberlain when he was at United and not getting minutes. He moved to Palace and got chance after chance and has developed to be a pretty good player. The likes of Shaw and Chamberlain would have developed far better by taking the short money now and be honest about their current level so they could develop properly. Even the likes of Rashford would develop better outside of a top 6 club getting regular minutes. If Lukaku didn't kick up a fuss at Chelsea he might never have got the gametime to develop.

Very strange to mention Rashford who is flourishing at United. His career trajectory is exactly what the PL needs for the English game to improve. He is one of the first names on the team sheet at the moment.

 

[11101]

A- The EPL money is distributed too fairly. That's good for clubs but its not good to talent as smaller EPL clubs can afford buying top quality instead of giving kids a go. It also allow kids to become too rich too quickly. Its not a good idea to spoil kids especially when you're expecting them to push harder then ever to become better.

B- Reserve football is a joke. Kids are wasting time playing reserve football.

C- First options/buying back fees hasn't yet become popular in the EPL which is a shame. The loaning option gives the smaller club no incentive to develop kids and tend to be used only to add more bodies to the team.

D- Kids in the UK have little incentive to go out of the country. Championship/Lower EPL sides will provide them with enough money to become rich. Why go to Ajax or Valencia and work yourself up the ranks when you can still become rich playing long ball football just few km away from mum's home?

E- The media is ruining young kids. Its first hype them which gives them the impression that they already made it when its not the case only to drop down like a sledgehammer once things don't go according to plan. Januzaj, Shaw, Macheda....the list go on and on.

F- The FA is failing to develop homegrown top level managers. Foreign managers tend to be more comfortable with players of their own culture which of course is bad news with British talent.

All of this and i would add:

G - youth football is a joke. Games can be weeks apart and the format is continually changing. Players have zero continuity.

H - B teams. It's fine to go from youth to first team if your name is Lionel but otherwise the gap is huge. The more stepping stones to first team football the better.

I - teams offering ridiculous financial incentives to kids and their families rather than focusing on playing time and development.

There's a good interview floating around with Rio Ferdinand where he says one of the big factors in his success was playing competitive football with fully grown men when he was still a kid.