Why young Brits can’t succeed in the EPL?

The Outsider

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Watching MOTD2 day and became aware of something that is probably hindering young Brits getting into the senior squad.

The pundits were saying the old Reserve set up was good where young players could play with the ‘men’ who were not currently first team choice yet compete against them and get good advice from the pros.

I get the feeling that now we have the under 23s and other age groupings that stop the younger players mixing with the seniors competitively and losing the benefit of that senior advice.

It might be the reason that so few young Brits are coming through to the EPL.
 

whatwha

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Got any stats? Has the percentage of young Brits playing in the PL gone down significantly lately?
 

SambaBoy

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Not given enough chances really, if Rashford wasn't throw in the EL and scored two? Say he had an average game, would he be playing now or out on loan to the Championship/League One?

Sometimes players just need to be given a chance/bit of faith and also they need to know they can play at that level. Rashford scored in the EL, 2 against Arsenal and he probably knew from then that he was good enough, but players given chances have a lot of pressure on them and it's a step up for them and many freeze and don't get another chance.

There's been so many players over the last 5-10 years who have been rated in the Academies/England youth squads who have never been given a proper chance or went out on loan, done poorly and then career has faded into mediocrity.
 

Gio

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It's an inevitable consequence of a league so rich and bloated with wealth that the squads are so deep which limits the opportunities for development.
 

SCP

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Not given enough chances really, if Rashford wasn't throw in the EL and scored two? Say he had an average game, would he be playing now or out on loan to the Championship/League One?

Sometimes players just need to be given a chance/bit of faith and also they need to know they can play at that level. Rashford scored in the EL, 2 against Arsenal and he probably knew from then that he was good enough, but players given chances have a lot of pressure on them and it's a step up for them and many freeze and don't get another chance.

There's been so many players over the last 5-10 years who have been rated in the Academies/England youth squads who have never been given a proper chance or went out on loan, done poorly and then career has faded into mediocrity.
They don't need to start playing in the first eleven of a top 6 team, instead of playing on the under 23's they can play 1 season on loan at the Championship, lower table teams on the Premier League (Loftus Cheek, Tammy Abraham), or they can be loaned instead to Eredivisie clubs, or the Girona alternative for City kids.

Plenty of options, no problem at all in the ages between 18 to 20 facing those types of chalenges, and with the current quality of young english players, I can see clubs from Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and maybe even Benfica scouting english talented players.
 

jungledrums

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How is this exclusive to young brits though? Does the same principal not apply to all youngsters?
 

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SCP

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It's an inevitable consequence of a league so rich and bloated with wealth that the squads are so deep which limits the opportunities for development.
It's inevitable on the next 5 years with the current quality they have there will be more chances for them, when Germany made their reforms after 2000 in 2010 there was more chances for young German players, simply because there was more quality to choose, the only difference is German clubs don't spend the same amount of money as in England.
 

edcunited1878

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Why do young brits have to succeed in the EPL? There are so many leagues around Europe that can nurture them and provide them a tactical education.

If I had a young son who is good enough, I would encourage him to learn his trade abroad. Learn a new language, culture and football. Grow as an individual and become a self reliant adult.
 

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Couple of good articles on here that address the issues England faces.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-paucity-of-english-opportunity-thread.2066572/page-5
It will change in the future, no reason to panick, if they didn't had the necessary individual quality it would be a big problem, football is more global, markets are more open, more mobilty between players, managers, scouting and all that, just get rid of Southgate after Russia and everything will be fine. ;)
 

Rasendori

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What England need to improve on is the pathway. A disconcerting statistic of last season:
Playing time for domestic U22 players in 2016-17: Ligue 1 -79,062 minutes, La Liga- 37,992 minutes, Bundesliga - 36,001 minutes, Serie A - 21,865 minutes Premier League - 16,532 minutes.

England could use with more managers like Pochettino in the EPL, and hopefully Koeman. Once everyone had played a maximum of one game in the Premier League this season, it was Everton and Spurs who not just played, but started a member of the England U20s which won the U20 World Cup as I said earlier.

Everton bought young players from lower leagues such as Dennis Adeniran, and Lewis Gibson who will be exposed to a higher level of football. Additionally, they've made the acquisitions of Keane and Pickford who are not only young for their respective positions, but players that will also be mainstays and add to Everton's English core of Calvert-Lewin, Dowell, Tom Davies, Holgate, Lookman amongst others. Furthermore, signings such as Klaassen who was the captain of a very, very young Ajax side, and Rooney as England's all time top goal scorer were bought for their influence on the youngsters. Also, now these young players have been given the chance to play in Europe, which will be invaluable in the long term, despite their current woes.

Koeman-“As a coach, I see if a new signing can hinder the development of a new talent. We can go and sign again, but in six months a talent might just be ready," he wrote in his column in De Telegraaf. Then you want to give him perspective. I think it’s nice to see the young players from their own training centres in England knock on the door. I want to give them confidence. In England, they generally hesitate, and don’t play young players too early. But as a Dutchman, I just don’t hesitate to give them a chance.The Premier League has made many foreign purchases and sometimes that’s inevitable, but I get to see the appreciation of everything just by walking in the training ground," he said.I admire the attitude, the mentality and behaviour of the young English footballers. They go like the fire, you don’t need to do anything to their motivation and I have to slow them down rather than push ahead. They possess a certain character that you don’t see in the Netherlands or in other countries. It’s a different culture.”

Conversely, Spurs have Pochettino. A manager who generally prefers players to stay at the Spurs camp, rather than going out on loan, as he wants players to be molded into the way he wants, rather than the influence of others. For this reason, Winks stayed at Spurs, and Onomah despite interest for his services last season, were rejected. Although, he is on loan now. Spurs had an English core of Rose, Walker, Alli and Kane, with Onomah, Trippier and Winks as peripheral figures for most of the season. Now Walker is gone, but Trippier and Winks have been given a more prominent role, Kyle Walker Peters is now in the mix. And it won't be too long before we see Marcus Edwards getting game time.

Pochettino - “And then, I think because the big sides are investing a lot of money in trying to improve their squads, but for us we are so calm and so quiet because we have belief in our youth from our academy. We may lack a few players, but we are so calm because I think we have a very good team and the most important thing for us always is the team. Always the philosophy is coming from the board and in the case of (chairman) Daniel Levy, I think we have a very good relationship, we have a clear idea of what we need to do in the future.But it is true we have a different philosophy, it is not because we cannot invest, but Tottenham have built a different philosophy than the other big clubs.

With that being said, England can't rely on the Premier League alone, as a pathway for players. Leading up to the 2014/15 season Tom Ince, an England U21 player turned down Monaco and Inter Milan to sign for Hull, with his reasoning being he felt the league itself and the question 'would I get lost over there?' especially being English, put me off a little." However, there's been progress in this regard with a number of English players whether on loan (M. Willock to Utrecht, Reece Oxford to Gladbach, or leaving permanently, as we've seen with Sancho joining Dortmund, Kaylen Hinds leaving Arsenal to join Wolfsburg, or or Dobson to Sparta Rotterdam from West Ham.

There's also the Championship. More games( 46>BPL's 38) + more willing to accept players on loan. Ryan Sessegnon became a starter for Fulham before he reached the age of 17, and barring unfortunate mitigating factors/extenuating circumstances, he'll get an exorbitant amount of game time. If he moved to a PL side, its possible he'll be playing at reserve level now, or consigned to the bench to only play in the cup competitions. Swansea's Abraham is an example of a player who thrived in the Championship which won him a loan spell from Chelsea to PL side Swansea as a starter. You've also got Nottingham Forest who have a core of English players, Dowell who was Everton's best player in preseason, Zac Clough, Ben Osborn, Jordan Smith, and Joe Worall.
 

Classical Mechanic

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It will change in the future, no reason to panick, if they didn't had the necessary individual quality it would be a big problem, football is more global, markets are more open, more mobilty between players, managers, scouting and all that, just get rid of Southgate after Russia and everything will be fine. ;)
I think the issue with young English players getting minutes in the PL will continue but that more and more will move abroad. City have their La Liga club now so I think they will send more young English players there.
 

SCP

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I think the issue with young English players getting minutes in the PL will continue but that more and more will move abroad. City have their La Liga club now so I think they will send more young English players there.
I see what you mean, it is true this generation of English players will be targeted by Bundesliga, Ligue 1, I suspect if Willock can make it at Benfica probably they will scout more too.

Reality is with more quality coming in there will be more chances for them, and there is nothing wrong if between 18/20 years old they are on loan to the Championship or mid table PL clubs (Loftus Cheek, Tammy Abraham).

There is always the Vitesse option for Chelsea players or Girona for City, it is a better option than playing for the under 23's.
 

cyberman

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The talent will spread down the league rather than abroad. These young players are the backbone of the future depth of the EPL rather than being pushed to replace Pogba / KDB / Jesus etc
 

WackyWengerWorld

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I think young players need to reckognise their current level and go for a team at that level. Wilfred Zaha was performing worse than Chamberlain when he was at United and not getting minutes. He moved to Palace and got chance after chance and has developed to be a pretty good player. The likes of Shaw and Chamberlain would have developed far better by taking the short money now and be honest about their current level so they could develop properly. Even the likes of Rashford would develop better outside of a top 6 club getting regular minutes. If Lukaku didn't kick up a fuss at Chelsea he might never have got the gametime to develop.
 

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The talent will spread down the league rather than abroad. These young players are the backbone of the future depth of the EPL rather than being pushed to replace Pogba / KDB / Jesus etc
If they develop and fullfill their potential, abroad or in midtable PL clubs they will sooner or later replace Pogba/KDB/Jesus etc. ;)
 

automaticflare

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The premier league is now like the NFL
There is so much money in it that giving time to a youn kid is too much of a risk for manager if they want to keep their job.
It is not the concern of the clubs to give minutes, it is their concern to stay in the league and keep on the gravy train. Would not be surprised to see some kind of no relegation policies being touted by foreign owners much like the NFL and MLS soon. Mark my words.

If England want to produce players the FA need to enforce some rules around home grown players, not the token gestures they have now, but that also stifles the product which also hurts them in their pockets aswell. There is a viscous cycle here all caused by the sheer amount of cash. Until that dries up nothing is going to change for your young players. We (ireland) are also affected by this as we don't have as many young lads playing in premier league ourselves for similar reasons.
 

Hullyback

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Why mention Brits? It's not the Scots or Welsh that are producing young talent is it? Unless I've missed them winning a load of cups this year it's the young English that aren't getting the chance. You only have to look at Ben Woodburn to see if Wales get a decent player they'll play him as soon as possible, whereas England will wait til a player is pretty regular in his club team before capping them. There's a few youngsters in the U England teams that could easily be capped and played, but with a numpty like Southgate in charge it won't happen. He'd rather play Henderson than give someone like Foden a game, even in a friendly.
 

duffer

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Why mention Brits? It's not the Scots or Welsh that are producing young talent is it? Unless I've missed them winning a load of cups this year it's the young English that aren't getting the chance. You only have to look at Ben Woodburn to see if Wales get a decent player they'll play him as soon as possible, whereas England will wait til a player is pretty regular in his club team before capping them. There's a few youngsters in the U England teams that could easily be capped and played, but with a numpty like Southgate in charge it won't happen. He'd rather play Henderson than give someone like Foden a game, even in a friendly.
Apparently Southgate was watching Tammy Abraham yesterday. He'd be an interesting addition to the England squad.
 

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Why mention Brits? It's not the Scots or Welsh that are producing young talent is it? Unless I've missed them winning a load of cups this year it's the young English that aren't getting the chance. You only have to look at Ben Woodburn to see if Wales get a decent player they'll play him as soon as possible, whereas England will wait til a player is pretty regular in his club team before capping them. There's a few youngsters in the U England teams that could easily be capped and played, but with a numpty like Southgate in charge it won't happen. He'd rather play Henderson than give someone like Foden a game, even in a friendly.
There is not a manager in World Football who who would drop a captain of a side that finished 4th last season for a player who has literally zero first team experience.
 

Hullyback

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There is not a manager in World Football who who would drop a captain of a side that finished 4th last season for a player who has literally zero first team experience.
Henderson being a captain of any side is a joke in itself, as is the idea he can't be dropped for England duties for a better player that can do more than pass sideways.
 

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Henderson being a captain of any side is a joke in itself, as is the idea he can't be dropped for England duties for a better player that can do more than pass sideways.
The issue now is there is currently not a better player to drop him for.
 

KirkDuyt

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They're just not that good at the moment. If you're good enough your old enough. The same question circles around in The Netherlands; why are our prospects not as good as RVP / Sneijder / Robben. It's just that they're not that good.
 

Hullyback

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The issue now is there is currently not a better player to drop him for.
Really? I can think of a few off the top of my head and that's not even including the young ones. I'm sure you can too. We'd be living in a terrible era if you couldn't think of a few better English central midfielders than Henderson.

Unless you're Kiopp obviously.
 

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They're just not that good at the moment. If you're good enough your old enough. The same question circles around in The Netherlands; why are our prospects not as good as RVP / Sneijder / Robben. It's just that they're not that good.
Well you guys do not have to worry if your young players will get first team experience.
 

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Really? I can think of a few off the top of my head and that's not even including the young ones. I'm sure you can too. We'd be living in a terrible era if you couldn't think of a few better English central midfielders than Henderson.

Unless you're Kiopp obviously.
England's midfield options really are that terrible.
 

Hullyback

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England's midfield options really are that terrible.
I disagree, I just think the options are limited to Southgate as he takes the easy options. He'll start playing Drinkwater more often now he's at Chelsea rather than Leicester and I'm sure he'd do the same with a few other players. Henderson should never get near a England team in tournament football, he brings literally nothing into the team other than decent opta passing stats cos he lays it off sideways or backwards most the time.

Watch Foden bossing Brazil and Spain and you'll see what a decent midfielder can do. Will he get a few caps? Probably not. But Henderson will be there no doubt.
 

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I disagree, I just think the options are limited to Southgate as he takes the easy options. He'll start playing Drinkwater more often now he's at Chelsea rather than Leicester and I'm sure he'd do the same with a few other players. Henderson should never get near a England team in tournament football, he brings literally nothing into the team other than decent opta passing stats cos he lays it off sideways or backwards most the time.

Watch Foden bossing Brazil and Spain and you'll see what a decent midfielder can do. Will he get a few caps? Probably not. But Henderson will be there no doubt.
If Drinkwater had as much caps as Henderson you guys would hate him even more than you do Henderson. He is even more limited than Henderson is.
 

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It's an inevitable consequence of a league so rich and bloated with wealth that the squads are so deep which limits the opportunities for development.
Great post. Compare it with France which teams filled with youth players. Different budgets, different expectations.
 

duffer

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If Drinkwater had as much caps as Henderson you guys would hate him even more than you do Henderson. He is even more limited than Henderson is.
He does not go around with his chest puffed out thinking he can spray inch perfect passes wherever he wants. He's a limited player for sure but seems to know what he's good at.
 

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If Drinkwater had as much caps as Henderson you guys would hate him even more than you do Henderson. He is even more limited than Henderson is.
He has a far better passing range than Henderson. Tackling not much in it with Henderson having more mobility. Drinkwater has a league winners medal to which he was an integral part of the team.
 

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I think young players need to reckognise their current level and go for a team at that level. Wilfred Zaha was performing worse than Chamberlain when he was at United and not getting minutes. He moved to Palace and got chance after chance and has developed to be a pretty good player. The likes of Shaw and Chamberlain would have developed far better by taking the short money now and be honest about their current level so they could develop properly. Even the likes of Rashford would develop better outside of a top 6 club getting regular minutes. If Lukaku didn't kick up a fuss at Chelsea he might never have got the gametime to develop.
Rashford is developing just fine here and getting plenty minutes
 

Lawman

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It's an inevitable consequence of a league so rich and bloated with wealth that the squads are so deep which limits the opportunities for development.
Spot on I’m a Scotsman and the size of our league limits youth development up here and the top 10 especially don’t want change to protect their finances (short term). I remember looking enviously at England’s forwards as over the early premiership years they had Shearer, Cole, Fowler, Ferdinand, Sheringham, Warhurst, Phillips, Clough, White, Sutton, Owen, Le Tiss even the likes of Dublin would have walked into the Scotland team. But nowadays they have Kane, Vardy, Carroll, Rooney to choose from! That’s a big drop off!! England’s golden generation failed badly as the clubs were dominant in Europe and England had about a dozen of the top two or three players in Europe in their positions in Seaman, Cole, Nev, Terry, Rio, Campbell, King, Scholes,Carrick, Gerrard, Lampard, Hargreaves, Rooney, Becks and Owen.
 

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He has a far better passing range than Henderson. Tackling not much in it with Henderson having more mobility. Drinkwater has a league winners medal to which he was an integral part of the team.
Wes Morgan, Robert Huth and Marc Albrighton were also integral members to that side.
 

Marcelinho87

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They don't need to start playing in the first eleven of a top 6 team, instead of playing on the under 23's they can play 1 season on loan at the Championship, lower table teams on the Premier League (Loftus Cheek, Tammy Abraham), or they can be loaned instead to Eredivisie clubs, or the Girona alternative for City kids.

Plenty of options, no problem at all in the ages between 18 to 20 facing those types of chalenges, and with the current quality of young english players, I can see clubs from Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and maybe even Benfica scouting english talented players.

The problem a lot of British players have had is the reluctance to move abroad.

Just look at Tom Ince and Jack Wilshere... I feel Tom may have gone on to much bigger things than current had he moved to Inter back in the day. Also Wilshere should have gone to Italy over Bournmouth.

One of the few things I respect Joe Hart for.
 

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The problem a lot of British players have had is the reluctance to move abroad.

Just look at Tom Ince and Jack Wilshere... I feel Tom may have gone on to much bigger things than current had he moved to Inter back in the day. Also Wilshere should have gone to Italy over Bournmouth.

One of the few things I respect Joe Hart for.
Look at how much guys like Michael Mancienne and Dale Jennings improved playing abroad.
 

limerickcitykid

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The problem a lot of British players have had is the reluctance to move abroad.

Just look at Tom Ince and Jack Wilshere... I feel Tom may have gone on to much bigger things than current had he moved to Inter back in the day. Also Wilshere should have gone to Italy over Bournmouth.

One of the few things I respect Joe Hart for.
Any father would have a reluctance to leave their child behind in another country. Wilshere did like any normal person would choose really.