Will Ten Hag's system ever work (once everyone is fit)?

[Borys]

Seems it all started with Sabitzer - most of us thought he is a temporary Eriksen replacement, but it turned out he can't actually play as a midfielder so he was pushed to second striker role.
This resulted in Sabitzer scoring some goals, but at the same time made us very vulnerable defensively for obvious reasons.

I don't know if that was the moment ETH got his new ideas, but he's been pushing for this single #6 with two advanced #8s ever since. Whatever the squad available, we seem to play this setup every single game (I could probably name only a few games we played differently). Different players as the second advanced #8, but always the same idea.

We all know the problems that come with it so I will skip this part, but assuming everyone is fit, does anybody think it'll actually work the way it's intended? If yes, how do you see this working out and how are we going to pull this off with the squad we have?

Seems like everyone (fans, pundits, yt "experts") are calling out Ten Hag now on his naiive approach and United doing same mistakes over and over again. The injuries are still a valid excuse - although after a game against Tottenham B team that actually played some decent football against us on Old Trafford, it seems like the tide has changed against Ten Hag.

What Ten Hag sees that everyone else do not?

 

[Skills]

No, because it's fundamentally flawed in its execution.

Guardiola's made two number 10s work with the centurion team but they played much more in midfield, closer and tighter together. I don't think it ever was his preference though - he just did it to get the best out of De Bruyne and Silva. Its why he always ended up bringing in Bernardo Silva or Gundogan in the big games alongside them.

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Seems it all started with Sabitzer - most of us thought he is a temporary Eriksen replacement, but it turned out he can't actually play as a midfielder so he was pushed to second striker role.
This resulted in Sabitzer scoring some goals, but at the same time made us very vulnerable defensively for obvious reasons.

I don't know if that was the moment ETH got his new ideas, but he's been pushing for this single #6 with two advanced #8s ever since. Whatever the squad available, we seem to play this setup every single game (I could probably name only a few games we played differently). Different players as the second advanced #8, but always the same idea.

We all know the problems that come with it so I will skip this part, but assuming everyone is fit, does anybody think it'll actually work the way it's intended? If yes, how do you see this working out and how are we going to pull this off with the squad we have?

Seems like everyone (fans, pundits, yt "experts") are calling out Ten Hag now on his naiive approach and United doing same mistakes over and over again. The injuries are still a valid excuse - although after a game against Tottenham B team that actually played some decent football against us on Old Trafford, it seems like the tide has changed against Ten Hag.

IIRC one of the negatives listed about ETH by the Ajax supporters was his 'stubbornness'. Our wide open midfield has been an issue since pre season and he hasn't really tweaked it. Whether thats down to injuries, personnel or he genuinely thinks we could make it work who knows. I don't think he's stupid or naive so it's probably down to the players we have available, we splashed the cash on Mount so he wants to get him into the team and coming into the season we only had Marcus as a goal scoring threat so creating the overload higher up the pitch would generate more chances for the other forward players I guess?

I don't think it will work with everyone back fit, the prem is too competitive and you can't give opposing teams that much space in the middle of the pitch where we have struggled for god knows how long.

 

[Sarni]

It won’t and even if it does somehow click while requiring all 11 first team players to be healthy, it’s not of much use.

 

[soapythecat]

What system?

 

[SER19]

I think its completely fair to ask this at this point so Im not criticising the thread. But putting 'system' in inverted commas does hint at a claim people make which is that weve always looked clueless and never shown any real system.

Dont get me wrong, we look absolutely awful and clueless lately - but its more frustrating because for a long spell last season we did have a system. I remember enjoying watching dalot and shaw, or whoever the full backs were, coming narrow and stepping into midfield, we created lots of overloads, we used our wide players - especially rashford really well, and it did look for all the world like a proper striker would make an enormous difference.

I know we've had terrible injuries, but I really cant comprehend how weve regressed so much.

To answer the thread, I think yes, ten hag can implement a system that will do well, but i think the bigger question is if he can find a way back now. I really hope he does, but our current position has really hammered his reputation. There were times last year where every sub made sense, and it seemed undeniable that he was the right man. That has largely evaporated now.

 

[AndySmith1990]

It's very rare for any club to have it's entire first team fit. Injuries are a part of football, so I'm not sure the question is particularly relevant. Anyway we've already seen Ten Hag's system played with the majority of the team fit at various points. Ever since that league cup final we've been playing poor football and it's only gone downhill since

 

[Skills]

What system?

The system of securing players from his sons agency?

 

[wolvored]

No as every top manager make their system work regardless of injuries or not. Spurs had 5 first team players out, yet still played their system easily and dominated.
In a possession based system which TH had at Ajax, there would be no place for Bruno and.maybe Rashford

 

[RedIan]

What system?

 

[Robbie Boy]

Usually when a manager drills home a system, other players can step in and the system will still look fluid. Given we look an incoherent mess this season, the answer is no.

 

[Judas]

He’s never truly practiced what he preached. The players are far from innocent, but overall Ten Hag has been a massive disappointment.

Whatever system he’s eyed as the answer, he’s never come close to implementing it long term, which is unforgivable when he’s been in charge for as long as he has been.

 

[Oranges038]

I'm coming round to the thinking that the Dutch football style just doesn't translate well to the English game.

 

[Alex99]

Usually when a manager drills home a system, other players can step in and the system will still look fluid. Given we look an incoherent mess this season, the answer is no.

Why do people keep repeating this like it must be true for every player at the club?

Even City and Liverpool falter when key players are unavailable.

 

[McFred]

Biggest problem for me is the pressing structure. We always seem to be easy to play out against - the 2nd goal yesterday was incredibly easy for Spurs to pass through the lines and have people running at the back 4. I don’t understand the thinking, the RW/LW press t he nearest CB, but it always means the GK can chip it over their head to the fullback and the RW/LW have to turn around and sprint to then close the RB/LB. As long as Rashford is one of your bailed on starters I don’t see how you can ever press like that as he gives up once ball goes over his head.

I’m not sure if Mount & Casemiro rectify that, but it feels like a stretch to think so.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Why do people keep repeating this like it must be true for every player at the club?

Even City and Liverpool falter when key players are unavailable.

Faltering is fine, I never suggested otherwise.

But playing as we have been, points to a lack of a coherent system. Or, at least one that'll drastically improve when 2 or 3 more return.

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Why do people keep repeating this like it must be true for every player at the club?

Even City and Liverpool falter when key players are unavailable.

I think its obvious we would have had a few more performances or results with our best 11 on the pitch. However, I can still remember Wolves strolling through our midfield with what I think is our best 11 on the pitch and I'm not convinced that having our best players will make this system work.

Would love to be proved wrong.

 

[DWelbz19]

No, because it's fundamentally flawed in its execution.

/Thread.

The way he wants to play this season** obviously can work in a vacuum – two more offensive minded midfielders in front of a lone no.6 can work. But it doesn’t matter who is fit and who isn’t with us – it just won’t work with the personnel he has accumulated. Our forwards struggle with intense pressing; our midfield struggles with ball retention and carrying the ball; most of our defence struggles at playing with the ball on either foot. It’s a hodgepodge of players who all excel at different styles of football, but here is the kicker -- most of this is self-inflicted by him because of the players he has either signed or already had at his disposal and elevated their significance.

Also, small sample size, sure, but the formation and tactic didn’t work at the start of the season with his ideal XI all playing.

** = (or rather, the way we think he wants to play, because I really don't have any idea what he truly wants – nor do I think he does, and that’s part of the problem).

 

[Smores]

I think 6 with two 8s as you call it can work but not with two wide forwards as we currently play. At least on one side you need a more classic wide midfielder to make it more narrow.

It just feels like we've got a mixture between how some players want to play and his own tactical ideas. Unless every player is setup correctly I don't see how the system works.

The problem of an open midfield has been there all season and what exactly has he done tactically to fix it?

 

[Tarrou]

none of our 8s/10s seem suited to the system, which can work with the right players

whether it can work ultimately is kinda moot for me, it clearly isn't working this season but he keeps persisting with it.. to the point where the whole team just looks confused and disjointed

yesterday was such a stark contrast in how well/poor the teams are setup

 

[TsuWave]

Having a manager/system that can only produce results with a fully fit squad then you might as well hang it up

 

[mintyred]

If it was going to work we’d see some sort of evidence by now. His idea is championship and so is the execution.

 

[Skills]

none of our 8s/10s seem suited to the system, which can work with the right players

whether it can work ultimately is kinda moot for me, it clearly isn't working this season but he keeps persisting with it.. to the point where the whole team just looks confused and unmotivated

Not if they're positioned the way Ten Hag does it. The personnel are flawed but the way they're used is why there's so much space through the middle.

 

[Borys]

IIRC one of the negatives listed about ETH by the Ajax supporters was his 'stubbornness'. Our wide open midfield has been an issue since pre season and he hasn't really tweaked it. Whether thats down to injuries, personnel or he genuinely thinks we could make it work who knows. I don't think he's stupid or naive so it's probably down to the players we have available, we splashed the cash on Mount so he wants to get him into the team and coming into the season we only had Marcus as a goal scoring threat so creating the overload higher up the pitch would generate more chances for the other forward players I guess?

I don't think it will work with everyone back fit, the prem is too competitive and you can't give opposing teams that much space in the middle of the pitch where we have struggled for god knows how long.

Actually that seems accurate description of what we've done. We just pushed one midfielder higher up. I don't see other changes to how we play but surely this is not Ten Hag's vision implemented? So what is the end goal with current squad?

I think its completely fair to ask this at this point so Im not criticising the thread. But putting 'system' in inverted commas does hint at a claim people make which is that weve always looked clueless and never shown any real system.

Dont get me wrong, we look absolutely awful and clueless lately - but its more frustrating because for a long spell last season we did have a system. I remember enjoying watching dalot and shaw, or whoever the full backs were, coming narrow and stepping into midfield, we created lots of overloads, we used our wide players - especially rashford really well, and it did look for all the world like a proper striker would make an enormous difference.

I know we've had terrible injuries, but I really cant comprehend how weve regressed so much.

To answer the thread, I think yes, ten hag can implement a system that will do well, but i think the bigger question is if he can find a way back now. I really hope he does, but our current position has really hammered his reputation. There were times last year where every sub made sense, and it seemed undeniable that he was the right man. That has largely evaporated now.

Good point. I changed this. There definitely is a system in a way players are having different roles now, what is visible especially in midfield.

Last season we saw some elements of modern football implemented like you mentioned. There is no trace of it now.

 

[Maluco]

No, it won’t. Even at his “peak” it was low scoring, terrible away from home, and prone to spankings.

He has delivered a portfolio of evidence that he either doesn’t really know what he is doing, or that he isn’t a good enough coach to implement a workable system in the PL.

Since he is in his 50s and has never had a successful team in a top league, it is fanciful to think it will suddenly come good here.

It has been game after game after game of the same terrible football, lack of cohesion and baffling in game decisions.

It’s more than enough evidence and it’s a hiding to nothing to wait and ask for me. He isn’t up to the task.

 

[redshaw]

I doubt a system is in place, it's just playing for time now. A bit of aimless pressing and some attacking emphasis that is completely failing. We don't score, we don't create or pass well, we don't defend well. We can't say out attacking is strong to the expense of defence, or we are tight in defence at the cost of attack or somewhere in the middle, we're poor in every aspect.

If there was some system, it's not good if it's reliant on one or two key players. If they get suspended or out injured and the team plummets to be on course for 40 goals scored, 60 conceded and sit mid table with our expenditure that is not a system but a cluster feck. We have a car crash of poor plans, poor recruitment, poor man management and we're just waiting for the plug to be pulled.

Such a system from what we understand from ETH is negated with Eriksen, McTom, Bruno. We've actually been weakened losing Fred as bad as he was. Huge issues masked by Case and Rashford last year, quell surprise they're not on it this year and we're in the gutter and no protection from Fred the best of a bad lot. So much money spent on keepers wide players and housing a bunch of useless attacking mids.

 

[crossy1686]

He doesn't have a system, he said that much himself.

 

[Borys]

/Thread.

The way he wants to play this season** obviously can work in a vacuum – two more offensive minded midfielders in front of a lone no.6 can work. But it doesn’t matter who is fit and who isn’t with us – it just won’t work with the personnel he has accumulated. Our forwards struggle with intense pressing; our midfield struggles with ball retention and carrying the ball; most of our defence struggles at playing with the ball on either foot. It’s a hodgepodge of players who all excel at different styles of football, but here is the kicker -- most of this is self-inflicted by him because of the players he has either signed or already had at his disposal and elevated their significance.

Also, small sample size, sure, but the formation and tactic didn’t work at the start of the season with his ideal XI all playing.

** = (or rather, the way we think he wants to play, because I really don't have any idea what he truly wants – nor do I think he does, and that’s part of the problem).

I think 6 with two 8s as you call it can work but not with two wide forwards as we currently play. At least on one side you need a more classic wide midfielder to make it more narrow.

It just feels like we've got a mixture between how some players want to play and his own tactical ideas. Unless every player is setup correctly I don't see how the system works.

The problem of an open midfield has been there all season and what exactly has he done tactically to fix it?

That is my view as well. I can't tell a single player in the attacking formation that suits this game. Rashford suits counter attacking game but doesn't track back, Antony is good defensively but ineffective in transition, Bruno can't keep the ball and he's asked to be more of a midfielder than an attacker that he is by nature. It all doesn't add up, so why is the manager still pursuing this idea?

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Actually that seems accurate description of what we've done. We just pushed one midfielder higher up. I don't see other changes to how we play but surely this is not Ten Hag's vision implemented? So what is the end goal with current squad?

It's like they've learned one move and are just spamming it sometimes. Like just after the break vs Spurs we are pushing 4 players up to press their back line like maniacs, Ange leaves two players up high and wide on the halfway line pinning our defence and leaving Mainoo to mark two players in the middle. Why are we pressing? We are in the lead just chill. Also I would expect one of Evans or Varane to step into midfield and help the lone 18 year old, seems like they didn't want to leave each other 1 v 1 vs Richarlison...

I don't know if thats the manager or the players are just poor at recognising situations and communicating. This is all fixable stuff.

 

[astracrazy]

No

With injuries you should still have a system that works (see Spurs last night), the expectation that it can only work with the first 11 is a problem. I'm not even sure what players we can look at to suggest we are waiting for to see this "click". Mount? Casa?

Nothing changed when Erikson returned from injury. Nothing changed when Shaw returned (and if it did it would be a problem as we won't be relying on him much going forward), nothing changed when Varane come back into the team. More importantly, nothing changes when players drop out the team.

I really don't know why he doesn't drop back to last seasons system.

 

[el3mel]

Ten Hag's ceiling is what we saw last season: a top 4 finish and minor domestic cup trophy. He has clearly shown he's incapable of anything more. So, ask yourself if you're content with that as future for Man United or you have higher aspiration. Even if his imaginary system works, he won't achieve anything more than that.

 

[Robertd0803]

What system?

 

[Borys]

Ten Hag's ceiling is what we saw last season: a top 4 finish and minor domestic cup trophy. He has clearly shown he's incapable of anything more. So, ask yourself if you're content with that as future for Man United or you have higher aspiration. Even if his imaginary system works, he won't achieve anything more than that.

But we've regressed in every department this season, injuries or not.
I think last season didn't give us a good picture of we can achieve with this manager because players like Rashford and Casemiro overperformed massively, at least for half a season. Second part of the season was more like the real level. But even then it's like a completely different manager we have now. There are almost no points of contact. It makes no sense.

 

[SER19]

Actually that seems accurate description of what we've done. We just pushed one midfielder higher up. I don't see other changes to how we play but surely this is not Ten Hag's vision implemented? So what is the end goal with current squad?


Good point. I changed this. There definitely is a system in a way players are having different roles now, what is visible especially in midfield.

Last season we saw some elements of modern football implemented like you mentioned. There is no trace of it now.

For what it's worth, if he had a full team now, I think it would be something like this.

Onana - Dalot- Varane- Martinez- Shaw.....Casemiro-Mainoo-Fernandes---Garnacho-Hojlund-Rashford

The elephant here is that it makes the Mount signing seem even more strange, but Mount may yet come good and a manager needs to be allowed to figure out a balance even if it means backtracking. I think the intention would be to have a back 5 that are comfortable on the ball - the 5 above is as good as we can do in this regard without signings and has hardly played, then a midfield that is comfortable taking the ball off them. We bypass our midfield to a crazy amount. If we're on top and Shaw and Dalot are stepping in then you have four good ball players behind Fernandes and the threats from wide are obvious. We seem to have no real attacking pattern and as bad as our attackers are I do think a lack of full backs has been a big part of that. They're such an important part of the game and we need real quality on the right. Shaw is good enough but his fitness has now returned to a concern.

You look at a template of sorts above and would think that come summer he'd want a new midfielder, a new right back, new centre back as a priority. The big call will be rashford and whether to stick with him or not. I think Garnacho will eventually just force his way into being a starter which probably means a top quality right sided player is once again needed.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Even with Onana, Martinez, Antony, Højlund & Eriksen available I just don’t even see glimpses of it.
Put Casemiro and Mount and you’ve got 7 of 11 players starting that ETH wanted, I don’t suddenly see how everything just clicks into place with Cas & Mount back.
Soon we have to accept that his two Ajax sides were less about his coaching and more about the background of the club and the other coaches that moulded the players that way.
That, or he simply cannot replicate the football he got away with in Holland in the Premier League.

I just can’t imagine a new sporting structure wanting to start with him as their long term partner to coach their vision. He’ll have to drastically change our shape, our movement, our defending and our attacking moments all within 3-4 months to convince them, and that aint happening just by getting 1-2 players back. It’s too much.

 

[eire-red]

I don't see any system at present, apart from getting the ball to Bruno and hoping he can manage to set Rashford or Garnacho free.

We press high from the front and the advanced midfielders, but more often than not it's too easy for teams to bypass and attack the back line that have stayed too deep.

We don't employ a good pressing game, we are too open off the ball, and we don't score enough goals to justify our risky set ups. The risk/reward dynamic is just all wrong and urgently needs addressing.

 

[Borys]

For what it's worth, if he had a full team now, I think it would be something like this.

Onana - Dalot- Varane- Martinez- Shaw.....Casemiro-Mainoo-Fernandes---Garnacho-Hojlund-Rashford

The elephant here is that it makes the Mount signing seem even more strange, but Mount may yet come good and a manager needs to be allowed to figure out a balance even if it means backtracking. I think the intention would be to have a back 5 that are comfortable on the ball - the 5 above is as good as we can do in this regard without signings and has hardly played, then a midfield that is comfortable taking the ball off them. We bypass our midfield to a crazy amount. If we're on top and Shaw and Dalot are stepping in then you have four good ball players behind Fernandes and the threats from wide are obvious. We seem to have no real attacking pattern and as bad as our attackers are I do think a lack of full backs has been a big part of that. They're such an important part of the game and we need real quality on the right. Shaw is good enough but his fitness has now returned to a concern.

You look at a template of sorts above and would think that come summer he'd want a new midfielder, a new right back, new centre back as a priority. The big call will be rashford and whether to stick with him or not. I think Garnacho will eventually just force his way into being a starter which probably means a top quality right sided player is once again needed.

There is very little to suggest Mainoo and Casemiro will play in this system together. Vs Forest Mainoo was subbed for McTominay (who played deep) and Eriksen was pushed forward. Ten Hag in generally doesn't seem to value a proper #8 kind of player (the last we had was Fred and he clearly was not ETH's favourite player), and Mainoo is definitely not going to play as an attacking player like McTominay/Mount do.

Everybody thought Mount is going to replace Eriksen in last year setup, but it turned out he's playing as high up the pitch as Bruno, if not higher.

 

[The Mitcher]

No, it didn't work when everyone was fit in august so why would it work now?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

What system?

What system?

What system?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I think its completely fair to ask this at this point so Im not criticising the thread. But putting 'system' in inverted commas does hint at a claim people make which is that weve always looked clueless and never shown any real system.

Dont get me wrong, we look absolutely awful and clueless lately - but its more frustrating because for a long spell last season we did have a system. I remember enjoying watching dalot and shaw, or whoever the full backs were, coming narrow and stepping into midfield, we created lots of overloads, we used our wide players - especially rashford really well, and it did look for all the world like a proper striker would make an enormous difference.

I know we've had terrible injuries, but I really cant comprehend how weve regressed so much.

To answer the thread, I think yes, ten hag can implement a system that will do well, but i think the bigger question is if he can find a way back now. I really hope he does, but our current position has really hammered his reputation. There were times last year where every sub made sense, and it seemed undeniable that he was the right man. That has largely evaporated now.

We were never a striker away. Many derided me for saying so at the time but anyone that believed this squad + striker with no injuries is bonkers.

We certainly were more cohesive last year but it was rather clear there were many issues aside no.9.

There’s a tendency for this fanbase to feed into personality & think one person will fix things. This squad was never a player away even at its best last year.