With Sancho & Camavinga in, do we soon surpass Liverpool & City's squad?

UNITED ACADEMY

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Fecking hell you don't even know who the guy is yet you're completely writing him off because of his age.. Idiotic. I've seen plenty of him for Rennes to make the judgement that he'd be a very valuable asset to our squad. He managed to put in a MOTM performance as CDM vs PSG when he was 16 so you can't bring up the quality of the league, and he's made the most tackles out of any midfielder in Europe. So long story short, wind ya neck in.

As I said in the post you've quoted, I don't think Camavinga alone would help us surpass Liverpool. Swap Camavinga with any top quality CDM we've been linked with and I still think we're in very good shape to at least match Liverpool and City.
The original thread before you changed it was "With Sancho & Camavinga in, do we surpass Liverpool & City squad?"

The answer is pretty simple. No, and majority people in here said the same thing. Their current level & stage are not ready to take on Liverpool & City sides right now. Just because you decided to change the title thread doesn't mean you can make a different argument. No one in here writing off both players off for future potential.
 

luke511

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The original thread before you changed it was "With Sancho & Camavinga in, do we surpass Liverpool & City squad?"

The answer is pretty simple. No, and majority people in here said the same thing. Their current level & stage are not ready to take on Liverpool & City sides right now. Just because you decided to change the title thread doesn't mean you can make a different argument on the post that I replied.
Yeah and that title change makes no difference to my response to your comment to that original point. At 17 with him in our side, along with all the other factors like Bruno Pogba Rashford Sancho all playing together, we could potentially surpass Liverpool and City, that's my point. And you've completely wrote him off without knowing who he is, he is genuinely good enough to start for Utd currently and improve us.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Yeah and that title change makes no difference to my response to your comment to that original point. At 17 with him in our side, along with all the other factors like Bruno Pogba Rashford Sancho all playing together, we could potentially surpass Liverpool and City, that's my point. And you've completely wrote him off without knowing who he is, he is genuinely good enough to start for Utd currently and improve us.
What about you re-read again my post & highlight when did I rule off Camavinga?
 

luke511

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What about you re-read again my post & highlight when did I rule off Camavinga?
"I don't know who Camavinga is but you are putting a 17 years old who just got his first full Ligue 1 professional season in a very important role and expecting us to surpass Liverpool. It seems you underestimate a holding midfielder role. Never mind surpassing Liverpool & City, I don't even remember the last teenagers who play regular holding mid in PL title contender. I can understand if your choice is Ndidi who has good season recently or Partey or even using Fred/Scott. A 17 years old really?"

This all basically says no a 17 year old holding midfielder can't help contribute to us reaching and potentially surpassing Liverpool or City's level.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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"I don't know who Camavinga is but you are putting a 17 years old who just got his first full Ligue 1 professional season in a very important role and expecting us to surpass Liverpool. It seems you underestimate a holding midfielder role. Never mind surpassing Liverpool & City, I don't even remember the last teenagers who play regular holding mid in PL title contender. I can understand if your choice is Ndidi who has good season recently or Partey or even using Fred/Scott. A 17 years old really?"

This all basically says no a 17 year old can't help contribute to us reaching Liverpool or City's level
You keep changing your post. He's not good enough to be considered to make us reach Liverpool & City level at this stage & level, that's exactly what I said.

What you said is that "he is genuinely good enough to start for Utd currently and improve us"

Being good enough for United current side & being good enough to play in important role as a title contender next season is two different things.
 

Pav1878

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With these two players we are still miles off city and Liverpool.
 

luke511

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You keep changing your post. He's not good enough to be considered to make us reach Liverpool & City level at this stage & level, that's exactly what I said.

What you said is that "he is genuinely good enough to start for Utd currently and improve us"

Being good enough for United current side & being good enough to play in important role as a title contender next season is two different things.
I've gone from 17 year old to 17 year old holding midfielder because it adds more context to your point, hardly moving the goalposts.. Yeah they are two different things and my bolded point can mean either of them, I've said countless times that Camavinga would contribute to us matching Liverpool and City's level so feel free to quote that.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I've gone from 17 year old to 17 year old holding midfielder because it adds more context to your point, hardly moving the goalposts.. Yeah they are two different things and my bolded point can mean either of them, I've said countless times that Camavinga would contribute to us matching Liverpool and City's level so feel free to quote that.
Dude, you changed your title thread & you clearly mistaken of what I posted because you decided to force it to suit your argument. Just get on with it.

I regret to allowed my common sense to join this "pure muppet talk".
 

luke511

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Dude, you changed your title thread & you clearly mistaken of what I posted because you decided to force it to suit your argument. Just get on with it.

I regret to allowed my common sense to join this "pure muppet talk".
You've used that title thread change as a response to suit your argument for the last 3 posts so that's pretty rich :lol: I responded to that but then you completely ignore that point, then ask me to highlight something, I respond, then you bring out the title change for a second time, and then a third. Good'en. All of my points still stand with the very slight change to the title, that relates to my OP more.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You've used that title thread change as a response to suit your argument for the last 3 posts so that's pretty rich :lol: I responded to that but then you completely ignore that point, then ask me to highlight something, I respond, then you bring out the title change for a second time, and then a third. Good'en. All of my points still stand with the very slight change to the title, that relates to my OP more.
You are the one who admitted it that your post can mean either of them. You aren't denying that your post also refer to your original title thread, you said it not me. And I'm not the only poster here who viewed it that way.

It's simple, common sense never work in the pure muppet talk after all.
 

luke511

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You are the one who admitted it that your post can mean either of them. You aren't denying that your post also refer to your original title thread, you said it not me. And I'm not the only poster here who viewed it that way.

It's simple, common sense never work in the pure muppet talk after all.
You saying Camavinga can't make a difference for us currently without knowing who he is isn't common sense.
 

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We’ve done pretty well against both of these teams recently. It’s more about beating the smaller teams and keeping up our current good form over a whole season. Would 2 more excellent young players in our thin squad help us towards that goal? I think they certainly would.
 

luke511

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We’ve done pretty well against both of these teams recently. It’s more about beating the smaller teams and keeping up our current good form over a whole season. Would 2 more excellent young players in our thin squad help us towards that goal? I think they certainly would.
Exactly, with Bruno, Pogba and Sancho added to the mix and Rashford coming back you have a completely different team.
 

Andycoleno9

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We need only Sancho and Pogba to stay. That is it for me. That squad will challenge for PL.
We had 3 problems one year ago.
1) Defence was not good in defending and ball playing. It was average defence at best. It is very good now. On par with City and Liverpool. Harry and Lindelof build a strong partnership, Shaw is finally playing pretty good and AWB covered defensive hole on right side. Sure, our full backs are not some big attacking force but they are excellent in defence. I am delighted with our defence now. And yes, DDG is still the best for me.
2) Losing battle in midfield. With Fred-Pogba- Bruno midfield it will not happen again. If it does then Ole should retire from coaching.
3) Not enough creativity and goals in attack. Basically we played with two players in attack. For biggest things you need complete attack. James is solid for some games but he lacks final product and quality in general. Greenwood is more striker than inside forward. All three forwards need to score and assist so Sancho would add that to this squad.

I have great faith in this squad. But Pogba must stay and Sancho must be bought.
 

elmo

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"I don't know who Camavinga is but you are putting a 17 years old who just got his first full Ligue 1 professional season in a very important role and expecting us to surpass Liverpool. It seems you underestimate a holding midfielder role. Never mind surpassing Liverpool & City, I don't even remember the last teenagers who play regular holding mid in PL title contender. I can understand if your choice is Ndidi who has good season recently or Partey or even using Fred/Scott. A 17 years old really?"

This all basically says no a 17 year old holding midfielder can't help contribute to us reaching and potentially surpassing Liverpool or City's level.
The fact that you think a 17 year old kid who just started his professional career in the French league would make our starting lineup and improve our starting 11 says a lot.
 

Ali Dia

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The fact that you think a 17 year old kid who just started his professional career in the French league would make our starting lineup and improve our starting 11 says a lot.
At 17 he’s already putting up some of the best numbers in his position in Europe. Would he be starting every game here straight away? No, probably not. We are lucky that we have matic who still has some mileage left so we can rotate them without too much pressure. We’d get even longer out of matic while eventually phasing him out organically and it’s a position we currently don’t have numbers in. I don’t think we would get Camavinga but yes I do think he’d be ready to play whenever we needed him. Why buy another short term fix when we can try and cover the position well for years to come. We don’t just need numbers we need either world class or potentially world class players. Buying the young and potentially world class players has worked out quite well for us with DDG Rio Rooney Ronaldo Keane some of our best ever players? All except for Ronaldo gave their best years football to us. Why do people always forget this when we try to target the top younger players. Buying ready made has been an absolute disaster for us in recent years.
 

elmo

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At 17 he’s already putting up some of the best numbers in his position in Europe. Would he be starting every game here straight away? No, probably not. We are lucky that we have matic who still has some mileage left so we can rotate them without too much pressure. We’d get even longer out of matic while eventually phasing him out organically and it’s a position we currently don’t have numbers in. I don’t think we would get Camavinga but yes I do think he’d be ready to play whenever we needed him. Why buy another short term fix when we can try and cover the position well for years to come. We don’t just need numbers we need either world class or potentially world class players. Buying the young and potentially world class players has worked out quite well for us with DDG Rio Rooney Ronaldo Keane some of our best ever players? All except for Ronaldo gave their best years football to us. Why do people always forget this when we try to target the top younger players. Buying ready made has been an absolute disaster for us in recent years.
It's the French league.... Expecting him to be an instant starter for us right now is ridiculous
 

luke511

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The fact that you think a 17 year old kid who just started his professional career in the French league would make our starting lineup and improve our starting 11 says a lot.
He would improve our starting XI and our squad currently yes, he's better than Matic. That french league bollocks doesn't stick because he put in a MOTM performance vs PSG, a better team than us at the time, and played a big part in Rennes beating them, the french champions, at 16. He's put in plenty more of those performances whilst picking up the most successful tackles out of any midfielder in the top leagues, and that's just one attribute that he excels at. Have you ever watched any of Rennes games?
 

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I'm referring to the OP who thinks this guy is basically going to save our midfield singlehandedly.
he won’t not next season but he’s potentially one of our best players for years to come if we somehow got him. I don’t think we will get him though. Maybe if we weren’t all aboard on sancho and the pandemic then there would be a small chance but It’s total muppet fantasy football talk which is never really worth getting too into unless you support real or barca
 

luke511

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I'm referring to the OP who thinks this guy is basically going to save our midfield singlehandedly.
Singlehandedly? Christ almighty. Read my posts in the entire thread. You couldn't be bending my words any more.
 

Dion

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It's not just Camavinga though 'ffs', the added balance of Sancho in attack and the combination of Bruno and Pogba in midfield makes a big difference. If we're thinking in squad terms then yes, buying Camavinga definitely contributes towards getting us closer to that level as he's the world's best talent in a position we're looking to strengthen. He's a Rooney equivalent in his own position, and you can't say an 18 year old Rooney didn't make help close the gap at the time? regardless of his age? To be fair you can swap Camavinga with any strong CDM link at the moment, and I still think the gap becomes very close between us and the top.

Worth remembering the +1 on the very young average squad age as well adds a lot of value.
Rooney didn't make us the best squad in the league, it took 3-4 years and the additions of 2 world class defenders, a world class goalkeeper and Carrick to make us the best squad in the league. Camavinga is 17 and he's no where near the level of teenage Rooney (because there are only 1-2 who were). If Camavinga comes in he'll be inconsistent as hell for 2-3 years in a position where City are exceptionally strong. It's doubtful he would definitely supplant Matic in that role, never mind Fred and McTominay if it comes to it.

We're a right winger, a leftback, a centerback and a holding midfielder of genuine ready-made quality away from even being in the argument for best squad in the league. Sancho qualifies as that, Camavinga in a role that requires experience most certainly does not.
 

FrankWhite

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Would improve our starting 11 considerably with Pogba being back too, however, our squad would still be weak. One injury to Sancho and we are back with Dan James in the 11, one injury to Rashford and who plays LW etc etc

So to answer the question, no our we wouldn't even equal their squads let alone surpass it.
James is Rashfords backup and Greenwood will be sanchos assuming we get him.
 

luke511

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Rooney didn't make us the best squad in the league, it took 3-4 years and the additions of 2 world class defenders, a world class goalkeeper and Carrick to make us the best squad in the league. Camavinga is 17 and he's no where near the level of teenage Rooney (because there are only 1-2 who were). If Camavinga comes in he'll be inconsistent as hell for 2-3 years in a position where City are exceptionally strong. It's doubtful he would definitely supplant Matic in that role, never mind Fred and McTominay if it comes to it.

We're a right winger, a leftback, a centerback and a holding midfielder of genuine ready-made quality away from even being in the argument for best squad in the league. Sancho qualifies as that, Camavinga in a role that requires experience most certainly does not.
No but he had an instant impact and he contributed towards getting us back there and that's what I said. Camavinga is genuinely as big a talent as Rooney was, he's putting in the same sort of age defying performances and statistics, so don't be so quick to say he can't make a meaningful impact yet because of his age and position.
 

Dion

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No but he had an instant impact and he contributed towards getting us back there and that's what I said. Camavinga is genuinely as big a talent as Rooney was, he's putting in the same sort of age defying performances and statistics, so don't be so quick to say he can't make a meaningful impact yet because of his age and position.
No, you said we would be back on that level if we signed those too, then edited the title.

And he absolutely isn't, that's literal fecking insanity.
 

luke511

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No, you said we would be back on that level if we signed those too, then edited the title.

And he absolutely isn't, that's literal fecking insanity.
What? I'm talking about what I said about Rooney, and not sure how qualified you are to make that call, he's pretty much the best teenage footballer on the planet right now putting in record numbers so.. I'll answer to your first point even though I was talking about Rooney. Yes I said if we sign Sancho and Camavinga with Pogba, Bruno and the return of Rashford considered then we could potentially pass Liverpool and City's squad, Camavinga is a contribution to a number of positive factors. The main one being a top quality well balanced front 3, then having the combination of Pogba and Bruno behind them as a creative force, then Camavinga, Fred and McTominay as options behind followed by a very strong back line. Bailly could even end up being a better Gomez. It's not as far off as most of you are making out.
 

luke511

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And not as good as Sane and Mahrez as backup so not as good a squad.
I think our strongest front 3 becomes better than theirs though with Sancho included, so it balances out for me at least.
 

Cassidy

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I think our best front 3 becomes better than theirs though with Sancho included, so it balances out for me at least.
Stronger? I don't think so. Aguero Sterling Bernado. I wouldn't say ours was stronger per say. Overall their squad would be better. their backups won't mean a big drop in quality where as James being in will.

It certainly brings us closer and able to compete, but no way would our squad be stronger.
 

luke511

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Stronger? I don't think so. Aguero Sterling Bernado. I wouldn't say ours was stronger per say. Overall their squad would be better. their backups won't mean a big drop in quality where as James being in will.

It certainly brings us closer and able to compete, but no way would our squad be stronger.
I'd have Rashford Martial Sancho over Sterling Aguero Bernardo, but I could be biased maybe?
 

Paul_Scholes18

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We are not far behind City if Pep goes. Feel like Pep has carried them and the squad is getting older.
 

Sayros

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City might disintegrate itself if the CL ban is upheld, so Liverpool is the main target to try and surpass as I think their dominance will continue otherwise.

Edit: That being said, Sancho is absolutely the priority, and if Camavinga could be gotten then I would jump on that as well because while he might not be an automatic starter his first season, I think by the second he will be acclimated, he'll be even more built than he already is, and will be an absolute beast by 18-19. He's someone I would fork a lot of money for because he's a 15 year answer to a very important position/role.
 

Dion

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What? I'm talking about what I said about Rooney, and not sure how qualified you are to make that call, he's pretty much the best teenage footballer on the planet right now putting in record numbers so.. I'll answer to your first point even though I was talking about Rooney. Yes I said if we sign Sancho and Camavinga with Pogba, Bruno and the return of Rashford considered then we could potentially pass Liverpool and City's squad, Camavinga is a contribution to a number of positive factors. The main one being a top quality well balanced front 3, then having the combination of Pogba and Bruno behind them as a creative force, then Camavinga, Fred and McTominay as options behind followed by a very strong back line. Bailly could even end up being a better Gomez. It's not as far off as most of you are making out.
And I'm saying you're wrong about Rooney. It took 2-3 years of him and Ronaldo developing to put us anywhere near that level. And no, not "potentially pass", you asked would it make surpass their squads. The answer is a categorical no. Bailly might go on to be better than Van Dijk, but there's no actual real evidence for it. Then there is the fact that they have a superior goalkeeper, two significantly better fullbacks, the best central defender in the world, one of the best holding midfielders in the world and a front 3 who are individually and collectively better than any of our front 3 bar maybe Rashford if he keeps things up.

And nope, sorry. Camavinga is not as good as Rooney at the same age.This isn't a topic for debate. He hasn't even made the French national team, Rooney was playing and scoring by his age. It's an insult to Rooney.
 

luke511

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And I'm saying you're wrong about Rooney. It took 2-3 years of him and Ronaldo developing to put us anywhere near that level. And no, not "potentially pass", you asked would it make surpass their squads. The answer is a categorical no. Bailly might go on to be better than Van Dijk, but there's no actual real evidence for it. Then there is the fact that they have a superior goalkeeper, two significantly better fullbacks, the best central defender in the world, one of the best holding midfielders in the world and a front 3 who are individually and collectively better than any of our front 3 bar maybe Rashford if he keeps things up.

And nope, sorry. Camavinga is not as good as Rooney at the same age.This isn't a topic for debate. He hasn't even made the French national team, Rooney was playing and scoring by his age. It's an insult to Rooney.
Insult to Rooney are you mad? How many times have you watched Camavinga play in all seriousness? And Rooney hadn't scored for England yet at exactly the same age, Camavinga could've potentially made the squad at some point this summer if it wasn't for coronavirus so that argument is null.
 

seegoblu

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I’m not sure you can hold it against Camavinga that he hasn’t broken into the squad for the reigning World Cup champion side yet vs Rooney making England’s lesser squad at the same age.
 

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who the feck is Camavinga and how does he and Sancho suddenly take us from 5th to 1st? we're talking about competing with the best players in the World here.
 

JPRouve

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And I'm saying you're wrong about Rooney. It took 2-3 years of him and Ronaldo developing to put us anywhere near that level. And no, not "potentially pass", you asked would it make surpass their squads. The answer is a categorical no. Bailly might go on to be better than Van Dijk, but there's no actual real evidence for it. Then there is the fact that they have a superior goalkeeper, two significantly better fullbacks, the best central defender in the world, one of the best holding midfielders in the world and a front 3 who are individually and collectively better than any of our front 3 bar maybe Rashford if he keeps things up.

And nope, sorry. Camavinga is not as good as Rooney at the same age.This isn't a topic for debate. He hasn't even made the French national team, Rooney was playing and scoring by his age. It's an insult to Rooney.
It would have been difficult since he didn't had the nationality until recently.
 

gajender

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We need to build a team capable of regularly hitting high 85+ points then take it from there, if these two help us do that it would be great .