He is right, but Ole has allowed that to happen. Most of them know their places are safe so can stroll around all they like. He has a squad, use it, if Mason will not track back put Sancho there. If the midfield are strolling about shake it up.
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
Really need to look at who's in charge of fitness and conditioning at the club. Took me a while to find when looking online but Richard Hawkins is said to be 'Head of athletic training'. At the same time we've also got a fitness coach, a 'lead sports scientist', strength and conditioning coach and a 'sports science and fitness specialist'.
On first glance it does seem a bit of a mess. There's no clear structure, no clear idea of who does what. On top of that, most of the staff joined under different regimes. Hawkins has been at United since 2008, whilst our 'sports science and fitness specialist', joined under Mourinho. In light of the talk about how under-qualified our coaching staff has been, I'm really starting to believe that the structure and quality of the backroom staff is generally neglected. It just seems like since Ole has come in, no attention to detail has been given to forming a strong unit. Rather, it's just a collection of coaches and staff that served under different managers and have managed to whether the storm when the eventual sacking happens. Just as a point of comparison, take a look at Liverpool. The main bulk of their backroom staff were all brought in by Klopp and it's obvious there's a clear structure in place.
I think whoever comes in next really needs weed out the passengers, bring their own people in and build a solid coaching foundation. Then hopefully, we won't have to be talking about topics such as lack of workrate or fitness in the team again.
On first glance it does seem a bit of a mess. There's no clear structure, no clear idea of who does what. On top of that, most of the staff joined under different regimes. Hawkins has been at United since 2008, whilst our 'sports science and fitness specialist', joined under Mourinho. In light of the talk about how under-qualified our coaching staff has been, I'm really starting to believe that the structure and quality of the backroom staff is generally neglected. It just seems like since Ole has come in, no attention to detail has been given to forming a strong unit. Rather, it's just a collection of coaches and staff that served under different managers and have managed to whether the storm when the eventual sacking happens. Just as a point of comparison, take a look at Liverpool. The main bulk of their backroom staff were all brought in by Klopp and it's obvious there's a clear structure in place.
I think whoever comes in next really needs weed out the passengers, bring their own people in and build a solid coaching foundation. Then hopefully, we won't have to be talking about topics such as lack of workrate or fitness in the team again.
This is it, you can almost predict 9/11 of the starters, whether the players are playing well or badly.
DDG, AWB, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Mct, Fred, Bruno, Ronaldo, Rashford are guaranteed to start games irrespective of form
Greenwood atm but he is the easy one to leave out.
I have not seen Sancho been given a proper chance, Donny, Telles, Lingard.
I can almost guarantee we look alot more solid with a 4-5-1 without Rashford, Shaw, McTominay in the line up and having Lingard, Donny, Telles.
We can all blame the defence for being bad, which they are but the help they get from infront is non existent.
When you have 4 v 3 in favour of attack, every defence will look bad because AWB does not run back. I have not seen one player sprint back to defend this season.
It's not just that we're the lowest running club in the league, it's that we're structurally set up to have low running stats. Rooney can say all he likes about players running more, but it's pointless just doing lots of aimless presses and sprints if the tactical structure doesn't have a cohesive and unified approach to pressing.
You can't just say "run more". You have to provide the tactical identity to give players the motivation to know how, and when, to run. That's why Liverpool, City and co run so much. The running has a unified purpose and point. Our running is just individualistic in purpose. A player here, a player there, but never groups of them in any synchronicity.
You can't just say "run more". You have to provide the tactical identity to give players the motivation to know how, and when, to run. That's why Liverpool, City and co run so much. The running has a unified purpose and point. Our running is just individualistic in purpose. A player here, a player there, but never groups of them in any synchronicity.
Not everyone has to press in a pressing team and quite often it's the striker who is the one that doesn't as he has too much space to press.
What Ronaldo can do is close down passing angles and you have the three behind him a bit narrower to press the midfield and stop the defenders progressing up the pitch. Win the ball and Ronaldo has the run to counter.
Hargreaves said after the Everton game if Fred had made the mistakes he had under Sir Alex he wouldn't play again for a month. It is about having standards and sticking to them, if the players aren't running for you then drop them.
It's about the authority you command. A player that won't run for Pep or Klopp wouldn't play.
Ole promised we will be the hardest working team in the league when he arrived.
Ole promised we will be the hardest working team in the league when he arrived.
This is my biggest disappointment with Ole. He simply has not lived upto his own words.
Yep. When there is no competition for places and 'favourites' you allow players to drop their level and be complacent.
It's not only when defending or pressing opponents that our players are half hearted. Even when attacking, there are no quick movement, running or passing to surprise opponents. They always prefer to pass back or sideway waiting for someone to produce individual brilliance to score goal
This is it in a nutshell, either Ole isn’t asking players to work hard or they ignore him, either way it’s not good.
Oh yes you can!
There is no excuse for not busting a gut for the shirt!
On Sunday, we had Ronaldo, Rashford, Bruno, and Greenwood refusing to do the hard yards and chase back.
Heck, I believe it is also fair to add Wan-Bissaka to that list as well (who jogged back for the majority of the time), some would argue to add even more; but I will stop there.
That is 5 of our outfield players refusing to sprint back and help out the team.
They had EVERY ONE of their 10 outfield players putting in the hard yards and busting a gut for their shirt.
Straight forward mathematics tells you that they had 100% more players than ours that gave their all for their club.
What chance did we have really?
On second glance its confirmed.
I think we have 'too many cooks' all over the club, all supporting slightly different approaches and ideas, whether its fitness and sports science, to styles of play, formations, players who are well past their sell by date in terms of affecting style and thinking. Ole did seem at one stage to be making the right signings, but once a player arrives and then gets sucked-in to the OT melting pot, his sharpness is the first thing to go, that leads to loss of confidence (always playing the safe ball) until Bruno arrived, he did take risks, some worked some didn't but unlike Pogba's mistakes Bruno's are less likely to happen in dangerous areas.
'Pass and move'/use of triangles at speed, etc. seems to be something that has been wiped from the collective memory banks of most of our squad players. 'Ball to feet' is the 'de rigor' requirement now, taking the ball on the run/on the turn has become something of a lost art now, the level of invention shown at corners is terrible, only when Mata plays do we have any possible variation. The rule at corners now seems to be to search for Maguire's, head every time...and guess what every opponent knows that!
We seem to make everything that is simple complicated and stretched out, whether that is trying to play out from the back or trying to press opponents... one at a time, or sometimes all at once... but only once!
Becoming evermore convinced our players train on different pitches, under different coaches, and I could swear the right hand and left hands don't even know the other exists.
Certainly seems like that doesn't it.
There has to be something structurally wrong within the club when players don't feel the need to give 100% on the pitch.
We see it every game. Players strolling, or spending most of the time around just walking. And these are supposed to be highly trained young professional athletes, benefitting from the very best in sports science.
Even someone who is just jogging for 45 minutes, really ought to be easily able to cover close to 10km. I used to be able to do that into my late 50's.
So I am hardly likely to be impressed with a professional sportsman doing not much more than 10km in a whole match.
That frankly would be embarrassing.
I heard on a podcast we were 3rd in sprints and midtable in distance covered - similar level to the other “top” sides - is this not true then?
Could be. Who knows? For a thread that was intended to discuss actual stats it’s become very short on stats and very long on opinions.
We were the best side in the world in 2008 with talent mixed with hard workers.
Rooney, Terez, park, Fletcher, Evra and Hargreaves could all play and run all day for the team. This plus Ronaldo, Scholes, Carrick, Giggs etc.
That's how you win. Talent amd hard work.
Currently we have immense talent but many forwards ok with jogging around because our coaching staff let's it continue.
Rooney, Terez, park, Fletcher, Evra and Hargreaves could all play and run all day for the team. This plus Ronaldo, Scholes, Carrick, Giggs etc.
That's how you win. Talent amd hard work.
Currently we have immense talent but many forwards ok with jogging around because our coaching staff let's it continue.
There's no excuse for not emptying the tank in a match.
None at all
That's a big part of what the players are hired for
None at all
That's a big part of what the players are hired for
Too many cliches in this….Ole is that you ?
I hear all of ole's cronies in the media lambasting the players for "downing tools" but they are either complete fools or playing the fanbase for fools but I believe the players haven't downed tools as such or that they don't have it in them to work hard but I think the players have got fed up with terrible coaching and tactics that have them running around like headless chickens and are now thinking what's the point when it isn't getting them nowhere.
The reason why coaches like pep, klopp,fergie, tuchal, potchettino (at spurs) conte can convince players to leave it all out there on the pitch and be open minded to being played out of position is because they can see the rewards of trusting in their managers way of thinking.
The reason why coaches like pep, klopp,fergie, tuchal, potchettino (at spurs) conte can convince players to leave it all out there on the pitch and be open minded to being played out of position is because they can see the rewards of trusting in their managers way of thinking.
Fred, McT + James gave a sufficient balance to the team
Losing a bad player like James, but able to run a lot, + bringing Ronaldo destroyed the balance of the team
This squad have the lowest workrate of the league, and it’s something not fixable, because players like bruno, ronaldo, pogba, greenwood, Sancho will never be good in pressing, tackling and understanding of the game defensively
A simply change of a manager is not enough
A squad bad assembled, helpless, almost a mission impossible, you should change too many players and you should have a success of 100% in the next 4/6 transfer campaign.
Losing a bad player like James, but able to run a lot, + bringing Ronaldo destroyed the balance of the team
This squad have the lowest workrate of the league, and it’s something not fixable, because players like bruno, ronaldo, pogba, greenwood, Sancho will never be good in pressing, tackling and understanding of the game defensively
A simply change of a manager is not enough
A squad bad assembled, helpless, almost a mission impossible, you should change too many players and you should have a success of 100% in the next 4/6 transfer campaign.
Evidence for this?
Pressing is not some individualistic endeavor. It's down to the coaching teaching players where and when to press as a group. This allows the team to win the ball back in great positions to allow attackers to reap the rewards. It's a lot easier to buy into working hard if you know it will pay off (goals and assists).
This nonsense has to stop. James hardly played last season, was terrible anyway and didn’t play Ronaldo’s position. Martial often did though.
It must also be noted our performances against Southampton and Wolves where 0-3 score lines wouldn’t have flattered the opposition. Ronaldo didn’t play. The manager also was happy after those games ridiculous as it was. So the players are playing to instruction. I’d have been fuming with the performance and forget the result. But not Ole.
Those players you mention can learn those things though (possibly not Ronaldo tbf), look at Bernardo Silva on Saturday, the level of aggression in his game was unbelievable, thats learnt from the City coaching. We have a fantastic squad, its being badly mishandled.
I'd love to see these running stats, its been said we dont work as hard as most of the other teams which i can believe, but it's not subjective there are stats to back that up which the club will have, I thought they were made available but i cant seem to find.
Surely this is part of our training and when we analyse games after the fact, "we ran on average X km's whereas they ran Y km's, Player A you ran 20% less than your counter part in the other team, work harder" - overly simplistic but the point remains.
Like we did against City you mean?
Currently there are too many fundamental problems with our game for this to be solveable by a shift in style or formation. And in any case, even if executed well, sit back and break simply isn't a feasible way for United to succeed in most games. Much less a way forward to being a top team.
Just... wow...
You really have no idea what you are talking about. Sancho played well for years in a pressing based system and especially after the poor start he had last season he worked himself back to form. Even against City he had the second most sprints of all United players, despite playing just one half.
His workrate obviously was that good that Ole is now thinking playing him as RWB, which is arguably the position requiring the most work.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Could go in any one of a dozen threads. Probably fits best here.
It doesn't even need statistics, you can see it plainly with your own eyes. We look sluggish all over the pitch, more than our usual self. Why is that and why can't Ole and his "amazing" coaching staff fix it, is anyone's guess.
Poor pre-season preparation, burnt out players? Bruno's been playing non-stop, for example.
I remember when Ole came in and gave us fake promises that his team will be the most hard working team in the PL. We are the least hard working 3 years on. More reasons to sack the fraud.
When Ole came to the club , he complained about the work rate and fitness and it did improve first few months he came and it was later ok later too.
This season it is obvious that it came down drastically and shows up in the results. It just points out that when you have unhappy players in the squad( with manager )or when you have unfit players in the squad you will see this kind of performances. It’s very disappointing to see Ole doing the same as Mou and picking only players he like and not the squad players even when his fav players are unfit.
This season it is obvious that it came down drastically and shows up in the results. It just points out that when you have unhappy players in the squad( with manager )or when you have unfit players in the squad you will see this kind of performances. It’s very disappointing to see Ole doing the same as Mou and picking only players he like and not the squad players even when his fav players are unfit.
Goodness me. So many problems.
Bruno does look mentally as well as physically tired.
So poor player management.
And sluggish is a pretty accurate description. As is downright casual.
So poor motivation.
But to me, there is a genuine lack of hunger from the players.
They have to take accountability for this.
It really is questionable whether they want to play for Manchester United or not. Because in most cases, their commitment is nothing like as strong as it should be.
Who's responsibility to instil workrate? To set standards, to show that if you don't work hard there will be repercussions?
Absolute nonsense. It is completely fixable.
If City or Liverpool were managed by someone like Lampard or Solskjaer, people on here would see their attackers running around aimlessly and say "players like Bernardo Silva, Mane and Salah will never be good at pressing or understanding the game defensively".
As fruastrating as it is, there's nothing unique about our squad downing tools when they decide they don't like a manager (if that's what has happened, which is likely).
You see it happen at Chelsea every couple of years whether that be AVB, Mourinho, Lampard. It's happened at Madrid, Bayern etc.
There's a reason they call it a "new manager bounce", players gain that few % points of motivation back when they get rid of a toxic negative environment caused by the old manager. Ultimately replacing the manager is a lot easier than getting rid of 25 players for having a poor attitude.
The stories of dressing room unrest I've read in the media over the last few weeks is unheard of really, this sort of stuff doesn't usually come out until after the manager is gone. But he's still there and everyone knows he's lost the players, and yet the club are just hoping the situation will sort itself out, despite the fact it will only get worse as the season progresses.
No player worth their salt is going to empty the tank if there is no belief that the team is setup to win.
That would be just running for the sake of running. If there is no belief in winning, work rate is going to suffer thats just normal. This is why I think people say players down tools, but this isn’t a conscious thing, really, no way if you do not believe in something you can give 100% its just not possible
Having said that from what I see a lot of the players work hard. This isn’t an issue of work rate but clearly poor tactical setup and no coherent team structure specifically when it comes to breaking down defences.
At HT against Brentford they've covered 4.5 km more than us.
We have a big squad full of attackers, it is entirely possible to increase the km number for the front attackers.
Supposedly we have hard workers in our team such as Fred, McT and Elanga 