Ole has repeatedly stated the fact that successful teams work harder and he wants the team to outwork their opponents. Are the players giving their all for him? What do the stats say? Are you keeping on top of this @Pogue Mahone
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Lack of workrate was what cost us against Villa.
It's understandable when any team struggles against a high press. That's the entire point of it. But where United failed was in picking up second balls.
Tactics are fine when they work. But if you don't have the passion to win every battle, you lose the war.
It's understandable when any team struggles against a high press. That's the entire point of it. But where United failed was in picking up second balls.
Tactics are fine when they work. But if you don't have the passion to win every battle, you lose the war.
That's why I'm asking. Seems they are not giving 100% and fighting for each other. And smaller teams thrive on that, bigger teams win things by doing that.
Ole hasn't lost the players. They worked hard and gave all that they had on the pitch. You could see players visually hurting after the game. People are looking for issues just to knock the team and players. In sport, there are days when opponents are simply better or have the rub of the green.
Running around like a headless chicken or naturally having more energy doesn't mean they are trying more for their respective coaches. If that was the case let's pack the team with the likes of N'Golo Kante and Ji Sung Park. There are many nuances to be good at football and workrate is one portion.
Running around like a headless chicken or naturally having more energy doesn't mean they are trying more for their respective coaches. If that was the case let's pack the team with the likes of N'Golo Kante and Ji Sung Park. There are many nuances to be good at football and workrate is one portion.
Not at all. Looking for explanations to our very poor performances. One explanation is that we have a poor manager. Another explanation is that we're not giving 100%. I definitely think Villa outfought us. And I also think we were looking for players to step up against Young Boys. I see this team pumped up against City, but not really against the smaller clubs.
I assure you the match-going fans will let the players and coaches know when they realise the players are not giving the best. It has not been the case since Ole took over as the coach. If anything it seems certain players are trying too hard to impress.
Well, to me it doesn't always look like that. That's why I'm interested in seeing some stats.
Only on specific for me...Dalot's lack of hustle at the end of the WH loss will bother me for a long time. Pogba can fade out a times of course but not this weekend.
I think most of our players give it a go, I really can't understand why we do not have the cohesion of most top teams with our quality of players.
I think most of our players give it a go, I really can't understand why we do not have the cohesion of most top teams with our quality of players.
I feel like we have lack of workrate/focus/effort at the start of games, not usually at the end.
Yeah and certain players are being given far too many opportunities whilst others not nearly enough, another thing is how many times are we going to keep hearing from Ole how we should be starting games better but yet never seems to happen
It's not that. I don't think players didn't work hard enough.
I think hesitancy because they don't know what to do in certain situations would come off as not working hard.
It's all come back to coaching.
Its a game of football, 22 men kicking a ball around, passing, tackling, shooting, saving, scoring and the team which scores most, wins, its really not difficult. Many players have astute "football" brains and instincts, and many dont, but its not Mastermind or rocket science.
For some reason Neville claims that Utd players don't have the "capabilities" to "run as hard" as Liverpool players?
They don’t even try to make a tackle
A mirror of the manager, passengers
A mirror of the manager, passengers
Workrate while losing/getting smashed at home to Liverpool was terrible. I thought we were gonna be the hardest working team in the league.
We’re a very lazy team, far too many joggers.
McTominay switching off so many times when they were countering.
Our players are not as fit or athletic.
Cultural reboot they said, current Utd side one of the laziest I've seen across the pitch
The only players trying out there today were Ronaldo and DDG, the rest didnt seem to care. Bruno was sloppy in missing a chance he would have buried last season and worse than lethlargic for the rest of the game. Nobody seemed to want to tackle or chase and Liverpool were allowed to pass the ball amongst themselves as if they were playing a team of 5 year olds; but then 5 year olds would have at least tried! If the players have lost faith in the manager, fair enough, but that does not mean they shouldnt try; for him, each other, the club and most of all the 73.000 + who paid to watch them, this performance was not good enough on every level imaginable; surrendering like this to any team is bad enough, but to capitulate in such a pathetic, wimpish, fashion to Liverpool is as bad as it gets. The Club should dock every players wages except for those of Ronaldo and DDG, the only two players out there today who were fit to wear the shirt, who were fit to be called Manchester United Players!
Football teams employ pressing everywhere in all divisons, even amateur ones..
You're telling me that the Man United squad just happens to collect players who, while being professional top athletes, literally "can not" press?
That's beyond silly.
This was supposed to be the cornerstone of Ole's United - in the early days following his appointment he repeatedly claimed that United must always out-run and out-work their opposition. Along with "playing on the front foot" and "expressing themselves", the workrate of the players has been the quality most-frequently emphasised by Ole in interviews.
Back in 2018/19 it was said that a pre-season was all that was required to get the players fit enough for this new intensive way of playing. Three years later and we're out-run by everyone we play. What happened!
Back in 2018/19 it was said that a pre-season was all that was required to get the players fit enough for this new intensive way of playing. Three years later and we're out-run by everyone we play. What happened!
Yeah, we need 10k Marathon runners who can also sprint like Bolt to be able to press. Obviously you cannot coach it. It's either you are born with it or you aren't
. Some of our supporters are even more full of shite than our management.There are players who are far better at it though, such as former players like Dan James, Andreas Perieira, Martial (when he could be bothered and when he played centrally) . Players like Ronaldo, Sancho, Greenwood don't have the same intensity but are obviously infinitely better players.
There are no excuses for our team to be this fecking lazy.
No half decent manager would set up their team/accept their team to put in next to no effort to press the opposition.
No half decent manager would set up their team/accept their team to put in next to no effort to press the opposition.
It’s a bit of both but some players are better athletes or have better stamina than others hence why Liverpool’s transfer team would target players with similar qualities, pressing and their running ability being one, you don’t sign Ronaldo and expect him to run hard, but you do expect that from Jota for example.
I mean they are lazy and therefore are not as fit as hard working players. We have not cared about buying hard working or athletic players.
Ronaldo not pressing is not down to physical capability but down to entitlement and privilege - arguably deserved one.
But you can have the rest of the team work for him, Rashford, Greenwood, Fernandes, Sancho surely have all the tools needed to press cohesively, and Ronaldo can be in the priviliged position to be devoted to attacking - as Salah is in the Liverpool team too, by the way.
He brought players who did not fit that narrative.
My biggest indictment to Ole is
1. he doesn't know players to sign, just signs anyone available without first knowing / visualising where he will play. He says one thing the signs a different kind of player.
2. He doesn't know the team to play. He just puts the same same team same same tactics same same game directional play each time.
3. In all this, he just hopes everything will work out eg in signings, in tactics, in game play, in team selection, in everything thing, Which we have seen doesn't necessarily happen all the time.
He has even forgotten about his words, promise and vision of the club.
Incredible.
Fernandes already presses like mad, I think Sancho and Greenwood can under the right manager not sure about Rashford, but remember Cavani Fernandes and Lingard still pressure the ball almost relentlessly under the same manager so I think attitude as you allude to affects these things but also fitness and athleticism some players are simply more suited to running all day than others, Milner Keita Firmino Robertson Jota are a few Liverpool players who exemplifies this and they were bought for a reason.
Also Salah isn’t in a privilege position he presses more often than Mané for example , everyone has to press in the Liverpool team and pressing sides in general or it won’t work as effectively.
When Ronaldo was first signed, SAF balanced things out by playing Tevez and Rooney upfront and Park on the flank. When things got tough he would introduce Fletcher in the team. During his last season he would play Cleverley not because the guy was particularly talented but because he provided legs that an ageing Giggs/Scholes and Carrick needed.
What Ole inners (including Gaz) can't comprehend is that workrate doesn't come out of thin air. Its a trait just like dribbling or having an eye for goal. At this level it becomes a skill or else you'd have players like Robbie Savage or Fred who run in circles like a puppy after a stick. A responsible manager doesn't expect a high level of work rate from every random player he has. Ronaldo, Nani and RVN had nowhere near the work rate the likes of Ince, Park and Keane had.
United already had its fair share of attacking minded players. VDB, Rashford, Bruno, Greenwood, Pogba and Cavani made us very attacking minded especially in a team with 1 ageing holding player and 2 very average B2B players . To add Ronaldo and Sancho to it as well was set to destabilize the system unless of course we improve the work rate significantly. That meant, Pogba would have to be shown the door and a DM (Rice?) and a deep lying playmaker (Neves?) added
This disaster is all Ole's making, a naïve mistake from inexperienced manager with too much money on his hands.
What Ole inners (including Gaz) can't comprehend is that workrate doesn't come out of thin air. Its a trait just like dribbling or having an eye for goal. At this level it becomes a skill or else you'd have players like Robbie Savage or Fred who run in circles like a puppy after a stick. A responsible manager doesn't expect a high level of work rate from every random player he has. Ronaldo, Nani and RVN had nowhere near the work rate the likes of Ince, Park and Keane had.
United already had its fair share of attacking minded players. VDB, Rashford, Bruno, Greenwood, Pogba and Cavani made us very attacking minded especially in a team with 1 ageing holding player and 2 very average B2B players . To add Ronaldo and Sancho to it as well was set to destabilize the system unless of course we improve the work rate significantly. That meant, Pogba would have to be shown the door and a DM (Rice?) and a deep lying playmaker (Neves?) added
This disaster is all Ole's making, a naïve mistake from inexperienced manager with too much money on his hands.
They can. But it's just a half arsed half press by one player, which then leads to a second player trying to do something to not look lazy. Then it has a knock on effect through out the rest of the team with players being reactive to others pressing. Which is all very easily bypassed.
And that's how Liverpool got their first goal, it has been highlighted before on numerous occassions, Souness even said it before the game, that Liverpool would find it easy to get out and they did.
Other times when the forwards do go to press they aren't backed up. The midfield pushes up a bit, but it leaves a massive gap between them and the centre backs, who are playing too deep. There were times today when Fred and McT were beyond the half way line and the defence was still about another 30/40 yards behind them again.
Keeper, defence, midfield and forwards, all just seem to be doing their own thing and it leaves massive gaps. It's why so many times you see a simple ball down the middle cut right through this team.
It’s not just the lack of effective pressing, or even any pressing at all.
Most of our attacking midfielders and forwards are just not capable of doing the job, even if they were coached and encouraged to make more of an effort.
We have too many overrated players who are far too one dimensional to be playing for a title challenging, top EPL and CL team.
This is particularly the case with the fans homegrown favourites.
Most of our attacking midfielders and forwards are just not capable of doing the job, even if they were coached and encouraged to make more of an effort.
We have too many overrated players who are far too one dimensional to be playing for a title challenging, top EPL and CL team.
This is particularly the case with the fans homegrown favourites.
Some harsh but true words from Wayne Rooney.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...e-rooney-solskjaer-manchester-united-22003071
You don’t need to press to be successful but I don’t think our lack of pressing is a tactical choice
Ah feck it just bring him in as caretaker.
The problem with blaming the players entirely is Ole accepts their performances. How many games does he need to see players not tracking back, not willing to defend, before he drops some of them (other than Pobga, who he then always brings on as sub). You can't just keep picking players that underperform and don't give everything, Ole accepts low standards.
Exactly. It’s just empty words about players not dying for the shirt etc. The game has changed sure, but it hasn’t changed to the extent where players won’t run around with intensity and aggression if: a. They’re coached and instructed to do so, and b. They genuinely fear repercussions for not doing so.
In our case it seems both A and B aren’t in place currently.
You would think with all the data he can see so many of our players are giving 4/5/6 -10 performances for large parts of games. If he wants to get more aggressive and tight then put players places at risk. That should have seen some kind of response but I think anything he does now is fecked. The players have his card marked and know he’s only using them because he’s desperate.
I don't think we should even be thinking about pressing. If you're going to press then everyone has to press. However many problems we have in the team, the simple fact that Ronaldo doesn't press means thats the end of that idea.
I think we should go back to what Ole was better at: sit back and hit on the break (ideally down the flanks). We have the personnel up front for that, and it keeps our midfield from getting too exposed.