Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Bilbo]

Most are saying this in light of the "5 wins in 6" stat - conveniently ignoring league form - where we are yet to log back-to-back wins and have a WDL or 4-4-4. We're struggling where (and when) it matters most. Frankly, if you ignore the playing styles, this is reminiscent of LvG; we manage to play the big teams well, but just can't seem to penetrate those that defend deep in a compact and organized manner.

Until Ole can consistently swat aside the lesser lights, we have no chance of threatening the top 4. If you feel 8/9 of our players are good enough for top 4, well, we should be beating the bottom teams easily, with the right tactics. That we are not indicates that either our players are not as good as you think - or that the coaching and / or tactics are not good enough. This is where most of us feel that even if not Top 4 quality, there is at least enough quality in our squad to not be losing to relegation-threatened teams each time we face them, indicating that the management / coaching is indeed an issue.

I'm coming at this from the opposite end of the spectrum. When we have our best team, or very close to it, available we do look like a pretty good side, certainly the equal of Chelsea and Leicester.

I'm willing to give Ole and staff the time they need to plug the obvious holes in our squad and build some strength in depth. If we add two or three quality players (RM, CAM, CM) to this squad as it is now we wont suffer quite as much when we have injuries, we wont have to rely on the likes of Andreas & Lingard (neither good enough for me) and we should start to see performances like we have recently on a more consistent basis.

Do I think Ole can elevate us to the level that City & Liverpool are currently at? I have my doubts about that, and also about whether that is even the plan for him. I think he has shown an ability to identify our problems and deal with them, and to know the right type of players to bring in. Maybe he gets two seasons to put the foundations in place and then we look for another man to come in and take this club back to the very highest level.

 

[Withnail]

I think you’ll find players leave here these days and go on to better things ‘performance wise’ so I wouldn’t use that as a yard stick.

I just have an issue with this crap signing talk when no one had that same energy when we brought them. They didn’t fail because of not being ‘United type’ signings. They failed because of personal issues half the time not quality related.

For example.

Di Maria just didn’t settle (it happens)

Memphis - we got good money for him

Falcao had a huge injury and has never been the same again. But did have a good 2 year stink at Monaco where he destroyed City in a two league qualifier. Bailly has been injury prone continuously.

Shaw same as Falcao.

Blind - doesn’t really need explaining.

I could go on.

You seem to be having an argument with yourself because you're the one who suggested they were being called 'crap'.

The original poster made reference to those managers not making the right signings for the club, which to be honest has been borne out over time, and it was you who provided this list of 'crap players'.

 

[fps]

The poll changed again?!

It now matches the Brexit vote pretty closely.

Coincidence?

Yes.

 

[Reynoldo]

As crazy as it may seem to some, if our next 5 or 6 signings are as well chosen as our last 3 and a couple of of the kids develop well, we could be a real force again.

That may well be true but its unlikely any manager gets 8/9 signings right. I dont think we'd need to luck out with them all though. If we got 3/5 spot on that should be more that enough to kick on.

People really underestimate the importance of the transfer market. If you sign the wrong players you fail. People need to stop pretending theres some way of coaching shite into quality.

There is some truth in that although the great managers find a way of elevating average players in great ones. The problem I have with all of this is even if Ole gets the next 3 signings spot on and gets us back competing up the top end of the table I think he still falls short in his managerial quality against the very best managers out there and that for me is the biggest worry, that he gets us back near the top but does not have the ability to get us over the line and we end up being better but not good enough and keeping him for too long in the process.

 

[Mainoldo]

You seem to be having an argument with yourself because you're the one who suggested they were being called 'crap'.

The original poster made reference to those managers not making the right signings for the club, which to be honest has been borne out over time, and it was you who provided this list of 'crap players'.

So if they were the wrong signings... Was they the wrong signings but good? You’ll have to enlighten me. Is this some slang where sick means good and not ill?

 

[The_Order]

Harsh, I think playing the majority of the season with your best players injured should give him some lee-way.

I understand that its a results business, but facts without without context can be misleading.

Just one player returning (Martial) has changed the entire dynamics of the team.

 

[lysglimt]

So if they were the wrong signings... Was they the wrong signings but good? You’ll have to enlighten me. Is this some slang where sick means good and not ill?

It's perfectly possible to sign superb players, but make a crap signing. Di Maria is perhaps the best example. The guy was world-class, he just didn't want to be here.

 

[Withnail]

So if they were the wrong signings... Was they the wrong signings but good? You’ll have to enlighten me. Is this some slang where sick means good and not ill?

If signings don't work out or are short-term like Matic then they aren't good signings. The players themselves don't necessarily have to be crap.

But again it was you who produced this cherry-picked list; I notice you left out Sanchez/Matic/Fred/Rojo who are still being paid by the club along with Schweinsteiger/Schneiderlin/Darmian as it didn't suit your narrative. The list of successful signings between Mourinho and LVG is a small % of the number of players signed and it's been very difficult to get some of the ones who didn't work out off the books.

 

[Withnail]

That may well be true but its unlikely any manager gets 8/9 signings right. I dont think we'd need to luck out with them all though. If we got 3/5 spot on that should be more that enough to kick on.



There is some truth in that although the great managers find a way of elevating average players in great ones. The problem I have with all of this is even if Ole gets the next 3 signings spot on and gets us back competing up the top end of the table I think he still falls short in his managerial quality against the very best managers out there and that for me is the biggest worry, that he gets us back near the top but does not have the ability to get us over the line and we end up being better but not good enough and keeping him for too long in the process.

If he gets us back into the top 4, builds a squad of good young players and then has to move aside for a top manager, I won't be complaining. I think he can do that given time but at this stage, that's best-case scenario for me.

 

[Mainoldo]

If signings don't work out or are short-term like Matic then they aren't good signings. The players themselves don't necessarily have to be crap.

But again it was you who produced this cherry-picked list; I notice you left out Sanchez/Matic/Fred/Rojo who are still being paid by the club along with Schweinsteiger/Schneiderlin/Darmian as it didn't suit your narrative. The list of successful signings between Mourinho and LVG is a small % of the number of players signed and it's been very difficult to get some of the ones who didn't work out off the books.

It wasn’t a narrative though. I’m fully aware of the rubbish signings the point was the managers didn’t fail in the transfer market like we are making out. You’ve just said if the signings don’t work out they are not good signings. With it only being 4 months into a full season I fail to understand how we love to highlight Ole’s signings against players that have been here for over a full season. That is my point.

 

[Mainoldo]

It's perfectly possible to sign superb players, but make a crap signing. Di Maria is perhaps the best example. The guy was world-class, he just didn't want to be here.

I know which is why I don’t like the argument other managers made rubbish signings. They didn’t some just didn’t work out. I was never sitting there thinking why did we sign Sweinstiger or Schneiderlin.

 

[Withnail]

It wasn’t a narrative though. I’m fully aware of the rubbish signings the point was the managers didn’t fail in the transfer market like we are making out. You’ve just said if the signings don’t work out they are not good signings. With it only being 4 months into a full season I fail to understand how we love to highlight Ole’s signings against players that have been here for over a full season. That is my point.

With respect, that is a new point you've just made. That isn't what you and I have been discussing.

 

[Mainoldo]

With respect, that is a new point you've just made. That isn't what you and I have been discussing.

It might well be. But my original response was about LVG and Mourinho having poor transfer policies compared to Ole who has now changed this. I don’t believe that to be true based on my last point and the pure fact I don’t see anything wrong with the players we brought under the other two managers when brought at that time. Obviously Mourinho’s last summer was a joke but I think he was the reason for that.

 

[meamth]

Hahaha so funny. Good one. It’s much more exciting seeing us get dicked by Bournemouth, West Ham, Newcastle & nearer relegation than top 4. It was so terrible seeing us get top 4 & win a cup & demolish City & Liverpool. Outplaying then at Anfield. But yeh you’re right that was boring. Long live Ole!!!

Hope you didn't celebrate when we won away at Paris.

I'd take Ole regime than LVG's .

 

[Bobcat]

Haven't read about Mourinho not wanting to offer a new deal - but if he did, then surely Ed's delaying should be assumed (in large part) to be caused by the manager not wanting the player? Would be asinine to extend a deal for a player the manager is just not playing and deems as surplus to requirements!

On Blind, it's a bit weird. Jose didn't want pace (signed Matic FFS) and claimed to want a CB good on the ball...and then promptly sold Blind. It's not even like he was chasing aerial ability because then we'd not have signed Lindelof.

PS: I liked Blind, but I always felt he was too slow for the PL. His vision, intelligence and passing range though were well above all the other CBs on our rolls. For Jose's style though, it's not like speed was essential. No idea what went on there.

Exactly, he was perfect for Joseball. The worst part is that hes still only 29, and since he never relied on pace i would assume he cant have declined so much. Also had a decent foot for taking set pieces and could play LB, CB and DMF. Not a world beater by any standard, but incredibly versatile and every good team needs at least one or two of those

So if they were the wrong signings... Was they the wrong signings but good? You’ll have to enlighten me. Is this some slang where sick means good and not ill?

Good players can be bad signings. Di Maria for example is undoubtedly a good player, but he seemed unhappy here from day 1 and he was a bad fit for LvG's system. That's what i think Ole is referring to when talking about getting the "right type" of players with the right attitude and all that. Identifying and trying to sign good players is easy. Any idiot who has played FM or FIFA can do that

In my opinion, the most important part of coaching is the mental aspect of it. Yes you can coach technical ability and players can gain stamina and strength and all that, but the really important part is what is happening in their heads. Step one of that process is identifying and getting the players with the right attitude and who want to play for the club for the right reasons. Not money or glory, but because they truly feel pride in pulling on that shirt and walk out on OT. The best example i can think of in our current squad is McTomminay. Not the most talented midfielder in the PL by a long shot, but his commitment and passion is not only great, its infections

The strength of Ferguson was never his superb tacitcs or amazing coaching ability. It was the fact that he had amazing talent on the field and all of them showed the kind of drive, determination and commitment that McTomminay shows. Just look at Liverpool now. Not the most talented team in the world, and player by player they certainly have a weaker squad than City, but everyone of those players will run through walls for their club and that's why they are going to win the league this year

That's why LvG and Jose failed. Both of them went full muppet mode in the market and signed loads of players without really thinking about if they were the right fit or if they truly wanted to play here

 

[meamth]

Can't believe people here believe LVG's tenure is better. Just look at the signings compared to now:

• Angel di Maria - wack
• Falcao - wack
• Blind - Mediocre
• Rojo - Mediocre
• Shaw - Decent
• Basti - wack
• Depay - wack
• Schneiderlin - Trash
• Darmian - Trash
• Martial - Great signing.

Now you compare that to Ole in his short tenure:

• Dan james - Great signing.
• AWB - Great signing.
• Maguire - Great signing.

So why the feck should we not give him enough time to sign more players??

 

[M Bison]

not seen that poll - link?

I havent seen the poll myself, just read various reports:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-united-fans-unhappy-way-club-run-supporters/

 

[meamth]

One good thing about this thread is that now I know there are 1680 negative posters in Caf.

Now I know why this place is toxic.

 

[Mainoldo]

Exactly, he was perfect for Joseball. The worst part is that hes still only 29, and since he never relied on pace i would assume he cant have declined so much. Also had a decent foot for taking set pieces and could play LB, CB and DMF. Not a world beater by any standard, but incredibly versatile and every good team needs at least one or two of those



Good players can be bad signings. Di Maria for example is undoubtedly a good player, but he seemed unhappy here from day 1 and he was a bad fit for LvG's system. That's what i think Ole is referring to when talking about getting the "right type" of players with the right attitude and all that. Identifying and trying to sign good players is easy. Any idiot who has played FM or FIFA can do that

In my opinion, the most important part of coaching is the mental aspect of it. Yes you can coach technical ability and players can gain stamina and strength and all that, but the really important part is what is happening in their heads. Step one of that process is identifying and getting the players with the right attitude and who want to play for the club for the right reasons. Not money or glory, but because they truly feel pride in pulling on that shirt and walk out on OT. The best example i can think of in our current squad is McTomminay. Not the most talented midfielder in the PL by a long shot, but his commitment and passion is not only great, its infections

The strength of Ferguson was never his superb tacitcs or amazing coaching ability. It was the fact that he had amazing talent on the field and all of them showed the kind of drive, determination and commitment that McTomminay shows. Just look at Liverpool now. Not the most talented team in the world, and player by player they certainly have a weaker squad than City, but everyone of those players will run through walls for their club and that's why they are going to win the league this year

That's why LvG and Jose failed. Both of them went full muppet mode in the market and signed loads of players without really thinking about if they were the right fit or if they truly wanted to play here

So explain to me using Di Maria as an example...how is he an FM signing and not the right person for Manchester United? A man of the match performer in w Champions League final the season before is a player you overlook..

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Can't believe people here believe LVG's tenure is better.

Hope you didn't celebrate when we won away at Paris.

I'd take Ole regime than LVG's.

Ay Caramba...

 

[Withnail]

I know which is why I don’t like the argument other managers made rubbish signings. They didn’t some just didn’t work out. I was never sitting there thinking why did we sign Sweinstiger or Schneiderlin.

Were you not? It was fairly clear after less than half a season that neither of those players were going to cut it.

 

[Withnail]

So explain to me using Di Maria as an example...how is he an FM signing and not the right person for Manchester United? A man of the match performer in w Champions League final the season before is a player you overlook..

You have to be on a wind-up

 

[Mainoldo]

You have to be on a wind-up

How? Who the hell has a problem with signing Angel Di Maria? Next we’ll be brining up good reason why we was right not to sign Eden Hazard. I want to know why Angel Di Maria as the time was a bad signing?

 

[Mainoldo]

Were you not? It was fairly clear after less than half a season that neither of those players were going to cut it.

That’s not what I said is it. I don’t know how long you’ve been here but like Darmian I was being told left right and centre these are the players we require. Our clued up bunch couldn’t understand why we was being linked with Nathaniel Clyne when the best RB in Italy is on the market.

 

[MileStolar]

I've seen this a thousand times so I have to finally ask the question - why is Di Maria always in the same sentence with "man of the match in the Champions League Final"? I swear I've never seen any other player being hailed for being the motm in UCL final besides him.

 

[lysglimt]

How? Who the hell has a problem with signing Angel Di Maria? Next we’ll be brining up good reason why we was right not to sign Eden Hazard. I want to know why Angel Di Maria as the time was a bad signing?

Well when he states afterwards he never wanted to join United - that is usually a problem.

 

[Mainoldo]

Well when he states afterwards he never wanted to join United - that is usually a problem.

Never wanted to join United or never wanted to leave Real Madrid? If you believe RVP he never wanted to leave Arsenal.. so should we have stopped the RVP transfer?

 

[M Bison]

How? Who the hell has a problem with signing Angel Di Maria? Next we’ll be brining up good reason why we was right not to sign Eden Hazard. I want to know why Angel Di Maria as the time was a bad signing?

ADM should have been a great signing, I couldnt believe Madrid were selling him and was made-up when he came here. It came crashing down soon after, but yeah i agree, he was on paper, a great signing.

 

[Cassidy]

Can't believe people here believe LVG's tenure is better. Just look at the signings compared to now:

• Angel di Maria - wack
• Falcao - wack
• Blind - Mediocre
• Rojo - Mediocre
• Shaw - Decent
• Basti - wack
• Depay - wack
• Schneiderlin - Trash
• Darmian - Trash
• Martial - Great signing.

Now you compare that to Ole in his short tenure:

• Dan james - Great signing.
• AWB - Great signing.
• Maguire - Great signing.

So why the feck should we not give him enough time to sign more players??

Im sure it not just based on signings

 

[meamth]

So explain to me using Di Maria as an example...how is he an FM signing and not the right person for Manchester United? A man of the match performer in w Champions League final the season before is a player you overlook..

• Don't have a fecking clue about Manchester.
• Can't seems to enjoy playing under LVG.
• Can't perform well at PL.
• Can't speak english.
• House robbed.
• Missing Spanish weather.
• Bitter about his forced exit from Real.
• Just signed him because of his ability, completely neglecting his adaptability to the english culture.

Like Ole said, wrong profile.

 

[meamth]

Im sure it not just based on signings

How the feck LVG football is more entertaining though?

Fecking laughable.

 

[Withnail]

How the feck LVG football is more entertaining though?

Fecking laughable.

Come on now, LVG played 'attacking football'

He said so himself

 

[Cassidy]

How the feck LVG football is more entertaining though?

Fecking laughable.

Not sure that was said either.

 

[Mainoldo]

• Don't have a fecking clue about Manchester.
• Can't seems to enjoy playing under LVG.
• Can't perform well at PL.
• Can't speak english.
• House robbed.
• Missing Spanish weather.
• Bitter about his forced exit from Real.
• Just signed him because of his ability, completely neglecting his adaptability to the english culture.

Like Ole said, wrong profile.

Ole is that you? Atleast I have visibility of our long term plans now. Brexit FC #MakeUnitedGreatAgain. Let’s build a wall to stop the Argies.

 

[Bobcat]

So explain to me using Di Maria as an example...how is he an FM signing and not the right person for Manchester United? A man of the match performer in w Champions League final the season before is a player you overlook..

But that's the point. Hes a great player, but his career at United was a sad chapter from start to finish. Had a couple of matches were he showed his quality, but overall it was a disaster

All manager make bad signings from time to time, and i understand your point regarding Oles signings because while i say they look great, they should have an add amendment, which is (yet). They look great yet. We are only halfway into their first season and there is still plenty of time to turn into shit if that is their destiny

Some of the transfer business of Moyes, LvG and Jose were bad luck (like Shaw), but a lot of them were shit and thats a big reason why we find ourselves in this spot today

 

[Rood]

I havent seen the poll myself, just read various reports:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-united-fans-unhappy-way-club-run-supporters/

Ah you mean this survey:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/united-voice-survey.451702/

Its worth a read but is actually not a vote on Ole at all really - its more about the way the club is run in general and it was taken near the start of the season

 

[meamth]

Not sure that was said either.

Pull back a couple of pages.

 

[soralapio]

This. I would also remind people that in Klopps two first seasons we had "Klopp sack watch" threads here and we were all having a grand old time laughing at him and talking about how useless he apparently was. Either way all these comparisons to Klopp and Pep are completely moot points. Different teams, different circumstances, they are also probably the best managers in world football today. If we are going to use them as a yardstick then pretty much everyone will come up short. Especially in Pep's case as hes only been manager in clubs with cheat codes allowed and has never done anything resembling the current United job.

Pep's also had the luxury of not having to step in to manage a squad assembled by four different managers and consisting largely of players who wouldn't be that great or fresh in those styles either. Before he came to City, they appointed his best mate as their Sporting Director, and started pre-buying players who were designed to fit in with the Pep Guardiola system. He was able to drop into a slot custom built just for him, and since then largely when ever they've had any kinds of deficiencies in their squad, they've spent big in replacing them with top players.

If Pep had been appointed the manager of this United squad, they wouldn't be top of the table. If City had been led by Woodward and the Glazers, Pep wouldn't have taken them to the top of the table either. I'm not saying Ole is perfect or necessarily even doing a great job, but comparing him to Pep is ludicrous. There's literally nobody in the world you could appoint Manchester United manager and realistically expect similar results, unless the power structure above them was also changed to include a Sporting Director who actually knows something about football, and a chairman who isn't trying to play real-life Football Manager 19 with a banker's education.

 

[lysglimt]

Never wanted to join United or never wanted to leave Real Madrid? If you believe RVP he never wanted to leave Arsenal.. so should we have stopped the RVP transfer?

RvP wasn't sold against his will - he just wasn't offered a new contract, so he asked Arsenal and Wenger to let him go to United. He turned down City to join United. I guess you could say Arsenal and Van Persie fell out with each other.

 

[Foxbatt]

How the feck LVG football is more entertaining though?

Fecking laughable.

It was initially. A lot better than what Ole had been doing recently. He just went offline later in his tenure. The problem with LVG was that he knew that he was an interim manager and that Giggs was going to take over. His mind was really not in it. He was the right choice at that time due to the fiasco of Moyes. We needed a big name man who has won everything. I would say his biggest mistake was not buying a player maker and he tried to shift Rooney into that.