I’d give him more than 11 months you impatient sod
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I was referring to the striking similarities between the two.
Ole has taken 2nd place finishers to mid table mediocrity within one year too.
On course to have our worst points total in recent history by far.
Can't see the difference.
Only, one is being judged differently because he "gets the club".
At least read couple of posts to get the context. It was about managing effectively against big clubs.
I’d give him more than 11 months you impatient sod
I agree with you that we midfield desperately needed another midfielder and I would have liked to get one as well as trying to sort the other areas in the team that needed strengthening.
Because he wasn't backed and went into the season with a squad that couldn't cope with any injuries. If we had proper back up for Pogba, Martial and McTominay the table would look a lot different. No manager is getting top 4 with the likes of Fred and Pereira having to play every week.
LVG was given a fortune to waste before he finshed 5th. Jose likewise before he got himself sacked.
Bruno was available for £60m.
He could have bought him, still let Lukaku leave and replaced him with an experienced striker, maybe Mandzukic for the year.
That would have been a better use of resources in my opinion.
Christ the serious squad were on last night
It’s only been 11 months for Ole and there are clearly signs of progress. The players are behind him seemingly which makes a refreshing change, I won’t mention the signings because that seems to irk the ole out brigade. The chances of us getting one of Europe’s hottest young players would appear to be higher if his former manager and countryman was in charge not some recently sacked Argentinian who he’s probably never met. Also if you want us to be more like those 2 despicable clubs then you need to take a look in the mirror.
I don't agree that Solskjaer sho uld be sacked for not making top 4. I think a difference between Ole and LVG was that LVG was given a shedload of cash but didn't spend it wisely, Ole wasn't given this privelege. We started the season with a very thin squad. If he had been given the funds to get a replacement for Lukaku and we had signed a midfielder, I think we would be in a lot better position. I didn't expect Ole to get top 4 with this squad.
He and the club knew the situation going into the summer.
If he was concerned about goals, 1) why blow all the budget on defence? 2) why let Lukaku leave last minute, with no hope of a replacement?
It just doesn't make any sense.
The only explanation to me is, the club, by Ole's judgement, was not concerned about not replacing Lukaku at all.
Obviously. He thought Rashford would take to the central position much easier than he actually did.
You make fair points. I think Fernandes would have been a good acquisition to relieve some of the pressure from Pogba and I also think Mandzukic would have done well for a year but I'm concerned that if we didn't sign another defender there is a concern that Phil Jones could have got more playing time and he is a liability.
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Wasn't backed despite spending 130 million ? Lampard wasn't backed what's his excuse, you would only have to rewind the clock to late August this year and re read half the posts saying that Chelsea were destined for 6th due to a fringe squad.How much did Rodgers spend ? Less than Ole I'm certain. Leicester finished 9th last season 14 points behind us and with barely anything spent and losing their most prolific center half are now 2nd in the league 11 points in front of our current league position. Did Rodgers need 3 transfer windows to turn Leicester around ?
Sick and tired of the romanticism from fans for a very average manager in Solskjaer. "No manager is getting top four with Fred and Pereira" your right other managers have already surpassed this level of achievement, Poch reaches the UCL final and got a top four finish with Winks / Sissoko. Klopp finished second in the league and reached a UCL final with Henderson / Milner instrumental in the midfield. Stick Milner, Henderson, Sissoko or Winks In a United midfield under Solskjaer and you get exactly the same results as Fred / Pereria. Excuses, excuses and more excuses.
Yes and I do not agree at all.
It doesn't take a genius to sit back and defend on the counter attack and pump long balls for the attackers to chase vs the better teams does it?
It is small time to me. Mourinho was crucified for similar tactics, so I find it amusing how it's now "managing effectively" with Ole.
Managing effectively to me would mean, that we are holding our own, are not constantly on the back foot, are having similar amounts of possession to them and are creating sustained pressure in their final third.
Every match I have seen us play vs the better teams under Ole, we are constantly on the back foot, we cannot keep possession and we struggle to maintain pressure in their final third.
Name one match under Ole, where we have looked on equal footing to the big clubs?
What progress has there been? please enlighten me.Christ the serious squad were on last night
It’s only been 11 months for Ole and there are clearly signs of progress. The players are behind him seemingly which makes a refreshing change, I won’t mention the signings because that seems to irk the ole out brigade. The chances of us getting one of Europe’s hottest young players would appear to be higher if his former manager and countryman was in charge not some recently sacked Argentinian who he’s probably never met. Also if you want us to be more like those 2 despicable clubs then you need to take a look in the mirror.
You shouldn't mention the signings because spending a world record sum for a CB and RB who aren't even close to being the best in their roles will make you look silly. And it just shows how tunnel visioned his approach was in the transfer market.
Ole might help in the signing of Haaland but the Argentine is from a country that produces much better talent in comparison and it will be better for us in the longrun to hire the Argentine with that criteria in mind.
Those despicable clubs? I remember you wishing death on Ed Woodward which was despicable and disgraceful. I don't think Barca or Madrid have stooped as low as you in that regard. Pot calling kettle black..
Again you are missing the point, which manager was sacked because they played on counters against strong teams?
I don't it when we play underdog football (and I disagree that it's easy to counter and the way you defined us playing against big teams. Those are not hit and hope, it's a clearly worked moves with wingers positioning high and we keep the ball on the ground while countering) as we are a big club and should be playing dominant football but the point (the post I replied to) was managers lost jobs for managing in that way, which wasn't true at all. They lost jobs as they failed to meet the goals or lost dressing room. Nothing to do with their approach vs big teams.
Back in the summer it was the players already here are going to replace him no problem. He wasn't concerned in the slightest.
It's revisionist for people to now turn around and say he wasn't backed properly, his targets weren't bought for him, after it's now gone tits up.
He made his judgment. Now he has to be accountable for it.
Christ a post for which I was 10 hours into drinking for which I apologised for, I just wish him the sack now if that makes you feel any better and I still do not wish us to turn into another Madrid and I would hope I’m not alone in that matter.
Check the recent form since the Liverpool game, in fact include the Liverpool game being we are the only team they have been unable to beat in god knows how many league matches now.
I suspect that there was considerable doubt about whether we would get a suitable bid for him. Inter had been sniffing around all summer it seemed without coming close to making an acceptable bid. It wasn't until the Juventus/Dybala links came up and all of a sudden they found an extra £20m from somewhere. It wasn't great timing in terms of us being able to spend some that money. I doubt the club wanted to, or were able to, risk a significantly outlay on a replacement before that deal was closed.
I don't think any manager lost his job due to playing counter attacking football. But LVG had a very good record in the big games. He beat City home and away, never lost to Liverpool in the league and won all 4 games against them two at Old Trafford and two at Anfield. He also beat Arsenal at the Emirates in the league.
And that girls and boys is the best reply you'll get to an oft asked question - though it should've been obvious.
I think the reality is that the club overcompensated in assuming players would come without looking at the allure of Solskjaer as the manager. Sancho ruled us out likely given our season's end, Dybala was supposedly only interested in playing for money, we supposedly tried for De Ligt / Rabiot who had no interest. I think Ole identified individuals who had no interest in playing for us, the only real target I can see that failed which was a realistic acquisition was Longstaff.
So when fans mention that Solskjaer wasn't adequately backed, I understand to an extent but I can't think of many realistic signings who were attainable that would have changed the landscape of our season. Bruno Fernandes is perhaps the closest example but even he is coming from a Portuguese league, and it wasn't so long ago we witnessed how bad Lindlelof was during his infancy at the club. Might aswell add Dalot to that list, the management still have withdrawal symptoms from his performance against Everton last season.
I made a point about this before. The only reason the players are fully behind him is because they have a cushy number and get rewarded and paid handsomely without having any pressure or expectations on their shoulders.Christ the serious squad were on last night
It’s only been 11 months for Ole and there are clearly signs of progress. The players are behind him seemingly which makes a refreshing change, I won’t mention the signings because that seems to irk the ole out brigade. The chances of us getting one of Europe’s hottest young players would appear to be higher if his former manager and countryman was in charge not some recently sacked Argentinian who he’s probably never met. Also if you want us to be more like those 2 despicable clubs then you need to take a look in the mirror.
Any human being would love to be working under a boss, who is soft and gives them premium wages without expecting them to reach any targets. I equate it it to like being in school and preferring the laid back lenient substitute soft teacher who doesn't want to rock the boat and so is chummy with all the students and doesn't reprimand them if they get E''s and F's in their exams. He's just satisfied if he manages to get them to turn up and sit still at their desks. It's a job done well done as far as the teacher is concerned
The students would do or say anything not to have a strict disciplinarian who demands high standards and grills them if they see their grades are falling so they run to the principles office to tell them how much they love being taught by Mr Brown.
Many of these young players like Pereira get to play week in week out whilst churning out dire performances, being selected on the merit that they are young. A player of his caliber under a manager who expects high standards wouldn't be found in the team
These same players get pats on the back whether they win lose or draw, as long as they work hard on the day that's good enough for the manager
Add to the fact that a lot of these young players don't know any better, so they are content with the football.
Senior world class players are not going to want to stay or be content with this football, which is why Pogba wants to get out of here and one reason why Lukaku, and Herrera didn't want to stay. They had seen enough. They knew the team was going nowhere being managed by a manager from nowhere.
Those expecting world class players or potential world class young players, to join the circus are living a pipe dream.
I don't think Ole is capable of managing big ego's or attracting world class players, since they'll see through the basic elementary football and want to be taught something more than ''go out and express yourselves and run''
Another poster said it right, there will only be jersey lovers who mirror the managers gratitude for simply being satisfied being at Man Utd. So we will only get players from lower domestic teams who still have fond memories of United growing up, so they'll be living the dream simply donning the shirt since we're still considered the biggest club in England.
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Yeah, that was my point. Every manager lost their job for different reasons, like failing to reach their goals or losing dressing room. Nothing to do with approaches against big teams.
Post SAF, Van Gaal was the best when it comes to big games. We used to play our game and beat them in mos games. Shame he was poor in transfer market, with good DoF, the potential was so huge.
Let's not turn into a successful club like Madrid or Barca and actually win titles because it's not the United way.
The only stand out result post Liverpool was beating Chelsea in the League Cup. We lost to Bournemouth and drew to a Sheffield United side 3-3 where we were second best for the majority of the game against players who have mainly been signed from the lower leagues. Beating Partizan, Norwich and Brighton should be expected from a Man Utd team. If you're giving credence to the manager for such a sequence of results, then I need to remind you, this is a Man Utd forum and not the forum of Burnley FC.
None of those players rejected us because Ole was our manager. Sancho was never going anywhere last summer, Dybala clearly didn't want to leave Juve and De Ligt had his pick of every club in Europe - I can't recall a single example even under Ferguson where we signed a player that everyone was chasing. Its just as likely to come down to the climate in Manchester as any other factor.
The modern football fan still seems to build their opinion based on rumours. It baffles me. There is a 0% chance that we sat around all summer waiting on those players you mentioned, and there is a 100% chance that we were talking to, and probably came close to signing, many players that were never reported. Absolutely nothing aside from rumours about Fernandes, and nobody else seemed to be interested either because he is still there.
I can't see how anyone could have serious issues about our business this summer. We all wanted AWB and we got him. James looks a great find. Maguire was too expensive, but it was a more sensible transfer than spending the same amount on the likes of Skriniar or Koubilaly who would have been riskier propositions and may have needed a season to adapt.
Its the classic 'enough people say it and it becomes fact' scenario. Young received dogs abuse on here and we desperately needed a right back. Smalling and Jones were the chuckle brothers, and Lindelof is now the latest whipping boy. Picture what our defence looks like without those two signings. 58 league goals conceded last season, but now we are supposed to have spent the money in the wrong positions. Really? I'd have loved a Herrera replacement as much as anyone but the club obviously couldn't find the right man. Even the riskier unproven gambles we could have taken were apparently being priced by their clubs as though they were 50-cap internationals.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding. My replies haven't been as simple as judging just the style of play vs the big clubs.
To answer your question, i would say that certainly factored into fans wanting Mourinho to be sacked. It was considered small-time and beneath the club to sit back and defend on the counter vs similar big clubs at home. Fans wanted Mourinho crucified for such tactics.
My question to you and the elephant in the room is, why is the general consensus right now, seeing similar football ''managing effectively'' now that Ole is in charge?
Sitting back deep and countering, with significantly less possession and chances created in the final third is not attempting to play anything like dominant football to me.
I don't agree that managers never lost jobs for managing in a small-time way vs big clubs. I think that's too simplistic. It goes hand in hand. As you said above, ''we are a big club and should be playing dominant football''. The managers are sacked for failing to meet the goals, which include a certain style of play that fans expect of a big club.
In my opinion, Ole is failing in meeting the results and expectations of a big club so far, he has also only shown himself capable of playing on the counter vs the big clubs at home, which definitely goes against him.
The only thing he has going for him right now, is that he hasn't lost the dressing room yet, due to being a young inexperienced dressing room with not much experience of winning yet & the expectations at the club have been lowered to such an extent, to compensate for his legend status, that he hasn't lost the support of the majority of fans yet.
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Agreed. He was a brilliant tactician that needed a DoF type figure. He beat Liverpool 4 out 4 in the league and that one performance at Anfield where Mata scored was a demonstration of his tactical prowess.
His signings were not poor in the sense that they were not good enough players. , I think that's been overstated in hindsight ignoring that a portion of them simply failed to adapt and integrate into the team and new country.
Depay -for 16- 20 million who was considered the hottest young property in europe and everyone I know at the time loved the fact that we signed him, as we were competing with Liverpool for his signature. He has today proved he his a very good player that would add something to our team if we were to re-sign him
Di Maria started off brilliantly but then didn't adjust to England and had his mind set on PSG and of course his house got burgled
Rojo - Did well at the world cup so it was another understandable signing, just hasn't worked out.
Falcao - Low risk loan that everyone was in support of at the time, that simply did not work out due to Falcao suffering the same psychological issues that Torress suffered from after returning from serious injury.
Schneiderlin - Another signing everyone and their dog wanted. Simply couldn't deliver on a bigger stage
The only truly poor unnecessary signings I would say were bad judgement was Schweinsteiger and Darmian even though the latter was regarded as one of Italy's more promising rising right backs at the time of signing. And some of the outgoings were unnecessary such as getting rid of Kawaga, Nani, Zaha and Hernandez.
Blind, Martial, Romero, Herrera and Shaw and bringing through Rashford, players who we still rely on to this day, shows he wasn't as bad as made out and he had a trophy and respectable league finishes to show for it.
Ole in comparison has made three safe bet signings all from england, without any of them needing to adapt and all of a sudden we're meant to believe has a better eye for talent than a man who has developed and brought through the likes of Xavi, Puyol, Ineista, Seedorf , Kluivert, Thomas Miller, Alaba and Edgar Davids, while trying to sign Sadio Mane for the club when nobody thought he was any good.
I'm not having that!
That still doesn't answer the question. So why let him leave, being unable to replace him, if you have reservations about the club scoring goals?
You either: 1) let him leave earlier in the window, to give yourself time to properly replace him. 2) Get his replacement in beforehand and take the risk of a club not making an acceptable offer. 3) Keep him.
You are just mixing up things now.
The post I replied to was very specific to ManUtd managers losing job for playing like that against big team, no one lost the job for their performance in big games, they lost because they failed to reach their targets.
I didn't call it managing effectively, I just asked which manager lost the job.
Re bold part, maybe you didn't read it correctly, I didn't say it's dominant football, I said I don't like sitting deep and playing on counter as we should be playing dominant football and also setting up counter attack is not as easy as you said.
Problem I feel in the forum is, since people want Ole out (I want him out too), everything is used against him playing down any good work he did. it's fine to give credit for few things he did right and still want him gone. Everything is in extremes, which is either he isn't backed or he did nothing good.
We can only beat what’s in front of us and a record of 5-1-1 since Liverpool isn’t too shabby when our “best” player is sidelined and we are playing one of the youngest teams in the history of the premiership but I feel we are going round and round in circles here and are never ever going to agreeLet's not turn into a successful club like Madrid or Barca and actually win titles because it's not the United way.
The only stand out result post Liverpool was beating Chelsea in the League Cup. We lost to Bournemouth and drew to a Sheffield United side 3-3 where we were second best for the majority of the game against players who have mainly been signed from the lower leagues. Beating Partizan, Norwich and Brighton should be expected from a Man Utd team. If you're giving credence to the manager for such a sequence of results, then I need to remind you, this is a Man Utd forum and not the forum of Burnley FC.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing.
I wouldn't say he was poor in the transfer market. You can blame him for not able to get his ideas through, but as someone explained in detail above his signings were pretty ok at the time. Sure some didn't work out, but you could never know that in advance. Even the very best managers have 50-50 record on the market.
Think you are wrong on the Sancho part. I read that we had a meeting with Dortmund but they refused to sell.
I didn't say Ole has better eye for talent than Van Gaal, I didn't talk about Ole signings at all. It was only about Van Gaal and how with good DoF the potential was so huge.
"Our best player" who you have derided and spewed hatred towards is now being used to defend Ole, oh the irony..We can only beat what’s in front of us and a record of 5-1-1 since Liverpool isn’t too shabby when our “best” player is sidelined and we are playing one of the youngest teams in the history of the premiership but I feel we are going round and round in circles here and are never ever going to agree
None of the managers we hired signed poor players, everyone looked good transfer at that time. We have benefit of hindsight and we can't pretend those signings were successful. We can only judge transfers once they play for the club, not at the time of signing.
He implemented his ideas, we lacked players good enough to make it work. For possession football, you need players who are good in tight spaces and also can see the pass that breaks the lines, we lacked them.
Silva, Bruce and Emery are about to get the sack. Watford, Spurs already pulled the trigger. Of course we will be dead last once again to come through...We can only beat what’s in front of us and a record of 5-1-1 since Liverpool isn’t too shabby when our “best” player is sidelined and we are playing one of the youngest teams in the history of the premiership but I feel we are going round and round in circles here and are never ever going to agree
Our ambition levels are really low if you consider beating teams like Astana, Brighton(at home), Norwich like some kind of a progress...
Agree on all of those points naturally. Sometimes it doesn't work out for managers for various reasons. Doesn't mean that they didn't have an eye for players on the market. Many wanted those players that we brought in and were talking about title challenge at the time, calling it the best window since ages.
Besides possession football is much harder to implement than counter attacking, hence there is a more chance of not pulling it out.
With the benefit of a hindsight I liked the model LvG used to sign players - at their peak, experienced or entering their 20's - a good mixture in terms of profile. He just signed the wrong ones, or if I might say those he signed didn't work out, again for various reasons.
Rooney, Evans all praised his level of details, IIRC Evans said he learnt a lot tactically under Van Gaal.
Even against teams like City, we played our natural game and more often than not dominated them.
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