Why would you do that?
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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How do you seem completely incapable of spelling Lingard?
Because the team was in complete shambles last year and because i think a team needs a preseason before you can see differences in style of play and urgency, particularly when you make such a drastic change to going from a park the buss tactic to a high intensity pressing.
Moaning? That is an interesting way to frame two people having a discussion.
Sarri came into Chelsea and within the 1st window, bought players with a certain profile to play his way. Jorginho, Kepa, Kovacic, Higuain, Pulisic. They might not have worked out, but you can see his intentions straight away. There is no multiple windows needed. That is excuses.
I am not arguing the effectiveness of counter-attacking in general. I am arguing against the negative traits that Ole is encouraging in the team. Liverpool play counter-attacking, but they do not sit back and defend anywhere near as much as we do. They are still able to in general maintain possession, especially high up the pitch, to create sustained pressure. They only sit back sometimes vs the very best teams like City.
Who are we capable of maintaining possession against really? We struggle to maintain possession vs every side we face it seems, and we certainly cannot create sustained pressure high up the pitch vs anyone.
Which top teams do you know of, that struggles to keep hold of the ball and circulate play in the final third?
Massive gaping holes in the club's ability to compete at the top with these traits, wouldn't you say?
If Ole identified these as issues before the summer, how come we never went out and bought any of the relevant player profiles then?
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We don't know why these players weren't replaced. That's between Solskjer and Woodward. I do know that we bid for a CM a number 10 and a striker over the Summer so Solskjaer clearly wanted to sign players for those positions. No point in pretending he didn't. I just think Ed is reluctant to spend big again after watching LVG and Mourinho waste a billion pounds. Schmeichel said today that he's spoke to Ole and that Ole wanted at least 2 more players over the summer. He said he's working with his hands tied at the moment. I believe it.
Either way I'm talking about coaching here. People act like he can't coach because we aren't winning games with these players. It all seems a bit rich to me. The ones with the ability to improve (eg the front 3) are getting better. We've gone from not creating chances to scoring 15 in 6 games. That's obvious improvement.
I just don't think the ones previously mentioned above could do much better with any amount of coaching. When's the last time any of them were actually good players and performing consistently. It's a mixture of never or a long long time ago.
Both Herrera and Lukaku wanted out. Did you read some of the things Lukaku was saying after he left? That sounds like a toxic character to have in the squad. Why didn't we buy more? I think Ole would be the first to think that he wanted more, but that is what the club could do; even failed to get Mandzukic over the line.
As always: Context matters here. Demands and expectations are different from club to club. Take Bayern, PSG and Real Madrid for example. They sack managers left and right because they are so much stronger than their competition, so anything other than an easy league win will be seen as a massive failure. Its the very definition of a one horse race
We are a big name and historically is a big club, but any manager with two eyes and a working brain can see that we have fallen quite far since the days of Fergie, the squad is nowhere near the quality it used to be, so getting us back to the top is a massive undertaking and challenging for the league is virtually impossible
That bolded part is a daft generalization, you know that. If we are going to make conclusion about which managers is better than other ones based on individual matches, then we might as well say Ole is better than Poch since he has beaten him two times now.
Regarding that last paragraph i would pose three simple question
1. Why is Ole and him alone getting all the blame for our bad results?
2. How good would you rate this squad of being (and be honest here please)
3. Is the results this season really that relevant in terms of our rebuild?
We can be selective but the truth is Lukaku most didn’t want him starting. However did he want out or did Ole initiate it?
Well when Ole came it became obvious that he wasn’t going to be number starter anymore. You said let’s look at the things he’s said since he left some included;
“When the speculation started and the club stayed silent I knew I wasn’t wanted” “when the manager told me he wanted play me as a winger I knew my time was up”
Now we all love Ole as a player he scored the goal that won us the CL. But his time at United says a lot about himself
1) SAF tried to sell him and he refused to leave.
2) Despite SAF signing striker after striker during Ole’s peak years and Ole eventually becoming a second choice right winger he still stayed. When he could have gone to another club and started more games.
A player with ambition wants to play every game. When they are not a regular they tend to leave, even if they are at peak Barcelona eg Pedro. So while Lukaku could have stayed, he was put in a position where any player with self respect and ambition would have left.
Ole as a player was unique, SAF accepted offers for him and he still stayed. SAF makes him 6 choice striker and 2nd choice right winger and he still stays... loyalty or just a guy who couldn’t take a hint
And what's the magic answer to escape the mediocrity? We had the manager whom world sees as the best in quick success, we had money for him to spend, we bent over backwards, ignored boring football that's against our very nature all to escape medicrity and it got us more medicrity with heavy financial burden to add to it. Finnally we have a manager who won't spend for the sake of saving his own a**se, he'll spend if he needs to, give chances to players who prove worthy and it will take time. But we will get back where we belong. Solskjaer is not in this job as just "another" job for him, he manages football clubs he wants, not to enrich his CV. If we sack him it's our loss, he'll go back to his peacfull life in Norway, waiting for us to get frustrated and call him up again. And if we do do that he'll come back, because he loves this club so much.
If Ole is viewed as being a placeholder to put the pieces in roughly the right place for a new manager in 1-2yrs.....I can begrudgingly accept that viewpoint. If people really think he is the man, then I hope those fans are happy for us to finish 8-12th consistently because his managerial and coaching prowess is demonstrably around mid-lower table.
Complete shambles? The games i am referring to last season, Ole had already been here a few months and had turned the initial shambles around by that point. You think it's okay to absolve Ole of all blame completely last season?
We have a younger, fitter team this season. We are still playing defend and counter-attack, but it helps having players like James in the team instead of Mata. To my awareness, our build-up hasn't improved, our possession hasn't improved and the creativity is still pretty low in the final third. I am not sure we have significantly changed from park the bus tactics to me.
Maybe so, but if we were truly serious, we would have seen more thorough links instead of just rumors. If you are on about Longstaff as the CM, Newcastle apparently wanted £50m. I'm not sure what kind of serious upgrade he would have offered regardless.
Who was the number 10?
If the striker is Mandzukic, he was very late in the game, and wasn't on our radar at all until Juve came with a proposal for Lukaku. I wouldn't call him a serious link to me. By all accounts, we had the opportunity to sign him standalone for £20m on the last days, but we refused.
Okay fair enough, the recent matches have finally looked promising for the front-line. But that doesn't mean you discount the previous how many matches beforehand where we have looked clueless going forward. On that basis, i want to wait to see if it continues before i know whether it is sustainable or not.
For me, the blame isn't developing Pereira, Lingard, Mata etc. I agree there's only so much you can get out of them to begin with. What i am criticising is the decision to go into the season relying on them. I would rather have risked leaving myself short at the back and go out and buy the relevant players needed, to not put us in the situation we are in now.
The decision to purchase Maguire for a record fee, get rid of Smalling, whilst leaving ourselves so short in midfield and attack that we're relying on Pereira, Lingard, Mata etc is shocking to me.
On the subject of Lukaku there was a piece in The Athletic about him having a bit of a name as a "big baby" and i think he's proved that actually. Love Mourinho then hated Mourinho; loved when Ole came in because the "understood him" then hated Ole. Not a character i want at United to be honest.We can be selective but the truth is Lukaku most didn’t want him starting. However did he want out or did Ole initiate it?
Well when Ole came it became obvious that he wasn’t going to be number starter anymore. You said let’s look at the things he’s said since he left some included;
“When the speculation started and the club stayed silent I knew I wasn’t wanted” “when the manager told me he wanted play me as a winger I knew my time was up”
Now we all love Ole as a player he scored the goal that won us the CL. But his time at United says a lot about himself
1) SAF tried to sell him and he refused to leave.
2) Despite SAF signing striker after striker during Ole’s peak years and Ole eventually becoming a second choice right winger he still stayed. When he could have gone to another club and started more games.
A player with ambition wants to play every game. When they are not a regular they tend to leave, even if they are at peak Barcelona eg Pedro. So while Lukaku could have stayed, he was put in a position where any player with self respect and ambition would have left.
Ole as a player was unique, SAF accepted offers for him and he still stayed. SAF makes him 6 choice striker and 2nd choice right winger and he still stays... loyalty or just a guy who couldn’t take a hint
I disagree that a player with ambition wants to leave if not played regularly. Players can also be realistic about their skill level and understand that they could be big fish in a small pond or small fish in a big pond and so make a career for themselves playing for an elite club. There's a fine line imo between ambition and delusion.
Interesting to see a (current) 48 / 52 split! Mr Farage and co would call that a huge mandate!
He was never 6th choice striker, at least at his peak and he started 29 games in a league in 2002-03 when he played as right winger.We can be selective but the truth is Lukaku most didn’t want him starting. However did he want out or did Ole initiate it?
Well when Ole came it became obvious that he wasn’t going to be number starter anymore. You said let’s look at the things he’s said since he left some included;
“When the speculation started and the club stayed silent I knew I wasn’t wanted” “when the manager told me he wanted play me as a winger I knew my time was up”
Now we all love Ole as a player he scored the goal that won us the CL. But his time at United says a lot about himself
1) SAF tried to sell him and he refused to leave.
2) Despite SAF signing striker after striker during Ole’s peak years and Ole eventually becoming a second choice right winger he still stayed. When he could have gone to another club and started more games.
A player with ambition wants to play every game. When they are not a regular they tend to leave, even if they are at peak Barcelona eg Pedro. So while Lukaku could have stayed, he was put in a position where any player with self respect and ambition would have left.
Ole as a player was unique, SAF accepted offers for him and he still stayed. SAF makes him 6 choice striker and 2nd choice right winger and he still stays... loyalty or just a guy who couldn’t take a hint
I know you are exaggerating to make your point, there is no need to. He felt it was better to be a back up striker at ManUtd than be a starting player at midtable club. He backed himself to be a starter at ManUtd and he did it, starting 30 games and 40 games before his injury problems started. That tells everything about his self belief. On the other hand, it also says about Lukaku's lack of belief and running away whenever his position is not a guaranteed starter.
He joined in 1996-97,
Total games - 46, 33 starts. Following seasons
30 games - 19 starts
37 games - 17 starts
46 games - 22 starts
46 games - 26 starts
47 games - 30 starts
57 games - 40 starts
Then his injury problems started where he missed around 3 seasons. He came back in 2006-07 and made 32 appearances with 15 starts.
It's weird people started to question his ambition and his playing career just because they don't like him as a manager.
Lukaku had a career planned and said he wants to move to Serie A even when Jose was the manager, then his agent made a statement when Ole was manger saying Lukaku wants Serie A move. Lukaku then gave 2-3 versions of the story. He wasn't ready to fight for his place and wanted out, not the first time in his career and he got what he wanted.
Lukaku also said
Which makes it obvious that he wanted to play in different leagues.
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It's not so much about absolving as neither is it that case to call him a genius for the initial winning run; what happened i think was he cleared the air from the horrific atmosphere Mourinho created and there was a bounce back, then fallowed by a number of injuries as well as poor mentality in the players; also fitness was very poor imo.
This year i think when we had a full team we looked fairly good; injuries have been a problem but according to some, this is a natural reaction when you go from a low intensity game to a high intensity one (happened to Liverpool too). The overall defense is better IMO as is the counter as you say. There's more work to be done for sure, but also keep in mind that breaking defending teams needs quality creative players and our best if not only one has been injured for some time. Things will improve a lot imo once McTominay and Pogba come back in mid; the front 3 are already looking fairly deadly.
I meant the people who moaned about Joses style
And i do firmly believe this squad dont have the right players for possession football. If Pep came in tomorrow and tried to play his football with these players we would look like mugs. Sarriballl looked good in Napoli, but Chelsea last year were a complete mess at times. Of course with enough time and resources anyone can shape any side to match their image, but if a manager takes over a side that is built on a philosophy that is completely different from his own, its going to take quite a bit of time and quite a few transfers before they look comfortable
I saw some clips of his Molde side and they were very aggressive in their pressing, it was almost ripped straight out of Klopps playbook and Ole himself has praised this style numerous times. We have seen glimpses of that type of high press here as well in some games, but most of the time we have been more conservative
The big problem with that kind of high press is that it takes quite a bit of time to coach properly, because if your players are not on the same wavelength you will get ripped to shreds on the counter. Liverpool the first two years were leaking goals badly, and i think we would as well if we tried that now
Several times this season i have seen James/Rashford chasing down defenders and end up chasing shadows because they get no support. I dont know if this is by design or the players behind them are scared they will get exposed, but unless you are pressing as a unit you might as well not bother, because then you will just burn energy for no reason
I also think we right now dont have the midfield to make a high press work well and it would expose our back 4 badly. Of course i am not opposed to us pressing higher in the future, but right now i dont mind us being a bit more conservative
It’s not daft, if every Premier League and Championship club had option of Ole or Wilder it would be a landslide for Wilder. That’s not based on one game it’s based on reality of who we appointed as manager, what Premier League club other than us would have employed him?.
And none of those teams struggle to recruit managers, neither do Chelsea. Why are we only club no one will want to go near if we sack a manager, it’s total nonsense.
To be honest I don’t see a revolutionary rebuild taking place. We signed a few players, sold a few and have continued with the same pragmatic, defensive and counter attacking football. We’ve just got a worse manager, who misjudged ability of the squad and has suffered same recruitment issues as other managers. This club needs a total reset not just hoping buying few good players solves everything. We spent 135m on our defence, we’ve conceded 4 less league goals and have 9 fewer points.
I don’t think Ole does get all the blame, far from it but we can’t pretend he’s making f great decisions and that there is anything on his CV that suggests he is right man for the job.
The squad is good enough to finish 4th at best and 7th at worst, as we’ve shown so far you can be pretty crap and still be i and around those positions.
My issue with Ole is appointing him was a romantic decision based on fact this guy whose career started and would have ended at Molde was actually some massive under achiever that everyone has neglected. Logic and his CV suggests it would end in failure, as Simon Jordan put it with everything Utd had at their disposal this was best they could come with and that’s how the football world will look at this scenario.
I haven’t seen anything to suggest Ole is a massive under achiever just a very limited manager. If club wants to rebuild that’s great but do it properly appoint someone qualified to do it, someone that plays style of football associated with the club but for the modern era, someone that will implement patterns of play and actually properly coach our players. Go all in on the best you can get, not just settle and then say well he’s got the job now so give us 2-3 years.
Ole is tactically naive, he was only meant to be a caretaker manager but somehow got the job riding on the emotions of the fans and with help of influential friends in the club. He need to get the sack as he wont leave on his own.
But....(once more)
Utd finished 2nd in the table in May 2017. Wasn't good enough with that squad of players, people said. Team fell apart last year, and Ole came to put that great team of players all back together.
So now, after one summer of transfers in and out, we have a "thin squad" and we can't be expected to finish in the top 4. Who came up with that transfer window plan? I assume it was Ole and that was obviously a really bad job.
I agree with some of the criticism but that is not true. He has a good record against the top sides and while you have an inferior squad that is down to choosing the right tactics. He is yet undefeated by both Klopp and Poch and is 2-0 on Lampard this season. He has his faults but tactics are not one of them. He overachieved actually.
Klopp, Guardiola, Lampard etc are in control of teams all comfortable with keeping the ball and dominating the game. It is a difference between LVGs type of possession-based football and Klopps, but Liverpool still plays a form of possession-based. Being unable to play possession-based football makes your team less likely to compete over time. We are among the worst teams in the league when it comes to passing, receiving the ball and retaining the ball if trying to.
Counterattacking football is only effective if you are the underdog, score the first goal or against teams willing to keep possession. And there are fewer counter-attacking oppurtunities in football today compared to 10 years ago. I know that most of the goals scored in football today come from situations that can be called counter-attacks, but relying solely on counter attacks will not make us competitive at all.
Coaching: Player can improve over time. Not on a day to day basis, but over time. Even if you are 30 years, you can improve every aspect of your game to some degree. If you can't improve, what's the point of training when a 10km jog would do the same?
A player can be good in one system, but underwhelming in another while playing for the same club. Rashford and James are good counter-attacking players but struggles when not allowed to operate in space or when against a low sitting defence.
Well said. If the club want the fans to accept a 3yr rebuild while we languish in the wilderness, at least give the job to a qualified, sought-after, promising manager with a modern approach. Ole isn't a suitable man to oversee a rebuild for a future team because every single one of the things he stands by hark back to the 90s and the days of SAF. He is a relic-type manager, not a modern one. You shouldn't entrust someone stuck in the past to look to the future.
No, no, no.
Anything slightly positive = Ole.
Anything negative = the players and board.
And the other problem is his appointment came completely out of the blue and wasn't prepared for, just hired based on the euphoria of a honeymoon period, so the club was hardly preparing for this long-term rebuild BS. The initial plan was a Dof+new manager in summer. We scrapped it for the euphoria of few months. That's why I don't get these "rebuilding" discussions seriously. There's nothing preventing the club from scrapping it if it is even present, hire a new manager and put a new one. So what, that's what they exactly did when they hired Ole.
It is funny man, it's scary how easily led a lot of fans are. This 'rebuild' talk wasn't even aired when Ole was caretaker. It was all 'appointing a great DOF to then appoint a quality manager'. When he was made permanent Ed saw the iron piping hot - no need to fork out for a DOF now, or many new players really, just spin the appointment differently....tell them its a long-term rebuild project, a lot of 'em will just lap it up.
May 2018. We finished 2nd just 18 months ago.
One of the primary reasons given in favour of dispensing with Mourinho's services in winter 2018, was that we had a fantastic squad of talented players who were being held back by the narcissistic misanthrope in charge. If we kept Mourinho around, so the argument went, we'd have needed to buy half a squad of new players to replace the ones he couldn't get performances from anymore. Getting in a new, positive manager was supposed to be a quick, cheap and easy fix.
A year later and the narrative has (predictably) shifted to one of "transition" and "rebuild". Three years and six transfer windows are apparently now required just to get the squad into a half-decent state, with our league position and all results/performances (or lack thereof) in the interim, consigned to irrelevance.
I expect that it means that half the squad don't rate Ole. These are (mostly) the same players that couldn't work with any other manager, after all.
Right. I'm not really sure if the club is spinning that story or if it's just the people here. It's hard to see how the club could stand years of irrelevance + plus they'd lose Pogba/DDG + every other club in the PL has money to spend and a plan (it seems).
What I particularly dislike is the idea that this "plan" absolves Ole of the requirement to do well now. If he screwed up last summer by not buying replacement players, he can fix it (some) in January. The idea that Utd can just skip a season* and try again next year (or in 3 years) is sickening.
*That was the story last year, iirc. Didn't want to buy the players Jose wanted, dragged their feet till December, lost the season.
Exactly to me this ‘rebuild’ is basically excuses whilst we let an inferior manager, build a pragmatic and defensive team. Meanwhile the same bunch of failures who’ve made all the mistakes in terms of buying, selling players and renewing contracts keep their jobs with zero accountability.
This rebuild is a whim, it will be ditched as quickly as it was hastily put into place, same goes for Ole.
Based on what data? Also, Villa reached out to him when he was at Molde, Cardiff hired him so thats two. Chelsea ended up hiring Lampard who was a big gamble. Every manager dreams of managing a big club, but sacking a manager 13 games into his first full season considering the state of our squad and that will surely seem off putting to some.
Did you expect a revolution? Players inn have been good, players out have been sensible. We play counter attacking football because thats what suits our squad best. Maybe he overrated some of these players, but hes not alone. Regarding recruitment issues, that cant be blamed on him can it? We need a DoF ASAP and someone else than Woody to handle the negotiations. Thats up to the board to fix, not Ole.
And we do need a full reset. Completely agree, but dont you think a complete reset also would imply results and performances would take a big hit? And look at the players we are starting with. A 18 year old at LB, a 22 y/o at RW who was in the Championship last year and a 22 y/o has been the outstanding performer in midfield this year. Other than that we are forced to play dross like Pereira, Lingard and Fred because they are literally the best options we have now. We are 2 points behind 5th so if we end up there would that not be par for the course?
He might not get ALL the blame, but going by this tread about 99% of it from some people
Who?
It’s not two that was during his first spell at Molde, not after failing at Cardiff and a worse spell at Molde. No Premier League team would have employed Ole and I doubt more than a handful in Championship at best. Lampard was a gamble but he’s done really well and has changed how Chelsea played, if he did really badly there he’d be sacked.
So our first year of rebuilding means we play a style that we don’t want to play, funny because I thought results don’t matter and it’s all about rebuilding. But then we’re playing a style to get the best results which has made us worse than last season. Surely we should be implementing what we actually want to do, what’s going to be the excuse next season. Ole’s only has one preseason first one didn’t count he was having to be pragmatic?. If he does t want to continue this style of football why did he buy a fullback that can’t attack and a CB that is slow on the turn and lacks pace. Those two signings suggest he wants to play this type of football or he bought wrong players.
You’re too focused on players, like I said all we’ve done is buy and sell a few and keep our style of play. That’s not a revolution or a rebuild or a reset, we’re just worse than last season.
A reset wont hit results in comparison to this, that’s the best part. Ole has dropped the bar even lower than Jose when he was sacked.
It is up to the board to fix recruitment, but what they can’t fix is they have given the job to an inferior manager. That won’t change, get better players fine but you’ve still got an inferior manager and there’s no need for it. What is the downside to rebuilding but with a much better manager?.
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It does.
But how much of our inability to create enough against presumably weaker opponents (where the challenge is to unlock 'em rather than capitalizing on transitions) is down to coaching/tactics - and how much is down to a sheer lack of creativity - is the key question. We do lack playmakers, that seems obvious enough. Especially in the absence of Pogba (and you could argue that he isn't a reliable playmaker in his own right).
In short, can this issue be fixed through coaching when we field players like Pereira and Lingard on a regular basis? I dunno about that.
At any rate, it remains a positive that our attacking trio seem to have found a bit of chemistry between 'em - that does help, and will be absolutely crucial in the upcoming fixtures (precisely in the absence of more creativity behind 'em).
I don't reall
The true telltale is over an extended period against a variety of opposition and unexpected squad changes. And in that more comprehensive view Ole has been tactically naive more often than not. Consistently failing to register shots on target against bottom clubs in England and Europa League are quite damning. As is our position in the table with 13 games gone by , relatively favorable schedule at that.
The beating of better teams alone shouldn't be used as justification. Lest we forget, Moyes beat quite a few top teams as Everton manager. And every season there are newly promoted clubs that sneak a win or draw against the big boys.
The true telltale is over an extended period against a variety of opposition and unexpected squad changes. And in that more comprehensive view Ole has been tactically naive more often than not. Consistently failing to register shots on target against bottom clubs in England and Europa League are quite damning. As is our position in the table with 13 games gone by , relatively favorable schedule at that.
I think at the heart of it every player wants to play week in week out, hence why the likes of Nicky Butt, Phil Neville, John o Shea etc eventually left, hence why Paul Scholes regular starter feel out with SAF when he got dropped in early 00s.
So for me. A player who is content not starting, knows his manager has accepted offers and still chooses to stay doesn’t have the same self respect as other players, and will usually be sycophantic in nature. As Ole clearly is.
Before the question of coaching, i think it goes back to adequate planning and organisation before the season. Ole never arrived in the summer. He had been here since the December. Ole and the club had months to prepare in advance.
We knew we were losing experienced players in advance. We knew we lacked a playmaker to take the burden off Pogba. We knew we lacked the controlling midfield player. We knew we had trouble protecting the defence in midfield. We knew about our issues vs deep defences. These problems are nothing new to us. They were here last season. We were told to wait for the summer, we've surely got it under control.
Knowing all of this in advance, what midfielders did we surely bring in, you would assume?
Considering the way the summer went, with no credible links to anyone of relevance... I don't believe that, they thought these issues were a significant problem. Or else we wouldn't have blown the budget on the defence, would we?
So for me, there's massive question marks on Ole's judgement, based on the summer business. That's before i get onto whether i believe his coaching is hindering the club. Which i believe it is, as he doesn't appear to be fussed about controlling matches through possession at all.
A good example is Liverpool, they may be known as a counter-attacking team, but they are more than capable of controlling possession and maintaining pressure high up the pitch under Klopp. As all top teams are now. It's not good enough to give up the ball and sit back and counter anymore.
Under Ole, it is plain to see that, there's a ceiling cap on how far we can go, as long as he continues ignoring these problems.
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Did people really say that?
If so, that's sheer delusion - or agenda driven bollocks, whatever.
However, I don't recall that being the actual sentiment among the - then - Jose critics. What people did say at the time was that we didn't look like what Jose himself was trying to sell, i.e. a team lacking in quality that was punching above its weight. We looked like a team that were not particularly well drilled, but that did have individual quality sufficient to grab enough points (greatly assisted by a genuinely world class shot stopper who played out of his skin on numerous occasions) to finish 2nd in a season where our top four rivals (everyone below City, that is) were bloody dodgy on the whole.
That's a far cry from claiming the squad was good enough, as such.
Yes, but then we're back to the following:
a) Did Ole want further signings (but was let down by the ones responsible for securing the deals)?
b) What is he expected to achieve this season - not by fans like us, but by his employers?
For me, the argument which makes it possible to remain "Ole in" goes as follows: Woodward has sanctioned a rebuild. He is on board with the idea that what we need to do is to gradually build up a squad, embrace a new approach to player recruitment, install a new mentality and squad cohesion at United - all the good stuff Ole quite plausibly might represent as someone who "gets" it (whether he's good enough in the dugout and on the training pitch - or not).
If that is true, the fact that we - clearly - didn't address several obvious holes in the squad (and the starting XI) isn't damning: it will come, and the inevitably shaky nature of the squad, here and now, is something Ole and the higher-ups consider par for the course.
As I keep repeating, if Ole is supposed to deliver something this season, the choices made are baffling and we can all enter meltdown mode (yet again) with full justification.
"We know we are too far behind from where we want to be. 98 & 97 points, that is exceptional. We are five or six points behind teams in 3-5 places, so that's realistically who we need to challenge next year".
"We used to be challenging for the PL title and that's not going to be sorted out quickly, you can't realistically expect to catch up immediately the top teams who are 32 points ahead. So, realistically, we have to challenge for the top four and another trophy.
At the end of last season.
"We used to be challenging for the PL title and that's not going to be sorted out quickly, you can't realistically expect to catch up immediately the top teams who are 32 points ahead. So, realistically, we have to challenge for the top four and another trophy.
At the end of last season.
a) I think it's hard to get behind that argument. It breaks down under scrutiny. As far as i am aware, we had zero reports credibly linking us to anything on the midfield transfer front. The hypothetical argument that he was let down by the ones responsible doesn't even have to be true, if his priorities were different.
I'm more likely to believe, that we had a set transfer budget, and Ole decided to spend it all on the defence, overlooking the midfield issues instead. That would make sense of the situation to me.
b) I think his expectations are extremely lenient. I don't think he is expected to finish top 4. As long as we stay treading water around 6th, with some development with youngsters, the brass can spin the apparent progress, it's a process, and future changes afoot yadda, yadda... in time for season renewals, they will be happy i think.
Why would you gradually build a squad, ignoring all results in the short term? We finished 2nd the previous season. You would think we would try to build upon it, not nuke the squad to oblivion?
It's all well and good embracing a new approach to player recruitment, but i don't think it's wise, at the expense of all short term goals completely. We lost a lot of experienced players at the same time, and we're told the youth replacing them can't be expected to carry their burden (they are youth after all), so what were we expecting to achieve here and now this season? I haven't got a clue what they were expecting to happen.
Do you also think it's wise to try and instill a new mentality into young players, when the team currently has no standards to uphold? What are we trying to instill? The loser mentality?
The way we are trying to do it, who would actively choose to develop youth inside a poor environment? It doesn't make any sense. You don't add youth to a team already devoid of any experience or leadership. With the pressure & responsibility immediately placed upon them, that's setting them up to fail. Like we have seen this season already.
You add youth to an already experienced setup so they can be free to naturally develop. It's the way all the top teams around the world do it. SAF used to do it this way. Rooney and Ronaldo the most obvious examples. Surrounded by leaders every step of the way. His youngsters were never laid bare like how we are supposedly attempting to do.
Mourinho in the Sky studio a month ago:
So i don't see any previous examples at other clubs, to give me any faith they know what they are doing at all.
That greatly concerns me. The more i delve into it, the more i believe we're just being taken for one big ride by Woodward.
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Because it might be necessary.
That isn't an outlandish concept. If the rot is bad enough, it takes time to fix it. We have a number of posters on here who - frankly - blindly cry "We are Manchester United and anything but excellence is unacceptable!" as if the insistence on excellence at all times is sufficient to achieve it. It is not. Taking a step back to take two forwards is a perfectly valid approach in itself. If you know what you're doing, that is. Does Ole? Does Woodward? Feck knows - as I have said many times, I'm not convinced at all. But the idea itself is - again - perfectly sound.
Just because 'people' said it it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.
I expected 6th last season despite coming 2nd the season before, i was proved right. I predicted 6th again this season, didn't agree with the crowd that thought Chelsea were finished this season and said Leicester would challenge us for top 6, 'people' didn't agree at the time.
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