Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[MattofManchester]

It's not a case of blind support and I never said there should be. I have no idea where you are getting that from.

I'm saying it's far too soon to be talking about sacking and the fact is, based on the poll, that is still the overwhelming majority view.

Some have been Ole out for a long time, yes, but they're very quiet unless we lose or, sorry, don't play very well. Then it's all crap, everything's terrible, Ole's useless, we're not coached etc etc.
I also said that is why it is characterised as knee-jerk. You do understand the difference between stating it's a knee-jerk reaction and stating it is being characterised as a knee-jerk reaction?

If we keep going as we have for the past two games yes it would be a bad season, but how likely is that? The players will get fitter and sharper with more game-time and performances will improve.
The performance against Brighton was an improvement on the Palace one as we looked more dangerous. I don't think we ever really looked like scoring against Palace at all.

The body language thing is completely overblown and wouldn't be up for discussion if we were two from two. Do you think the players are looking over at the bench during games to be 'inspired'?
Team talks before the game and at half time and what is said in training have more impact on a team then what a manager is doing on the bench. I don't think that can be really disputed.

I don't agree with it being "Too soon" or "Too late" tbh. I think it depends as to whether there's constant progression, and yes, at the moment there is. But there does, at the same time, seem to be questions about Ole, or in fairness, his coaching staff, and their long term ability to progress the team.

But,in his defence, I can't put it all down to him, and I don't buy the fitness excuse. We still seem to look like a lot of our players have less motivation to win the game than our opposition, and that has been a constant here in years gone by.

Actually the body language is a thing to notice, not because we lose or as a result of a poor performance, but because it HAS changed. Why has it changed? What is different? What is the reason a man, who himself said he is always positive, looks increasingly negative?
You cannot disregard body language because a lot of how people work and think, involves this, so for those of you dismissing it, educate yourself, please.

I don't agree that he should be sacked, but I also don't agree that he is entitled to unwavering support, if that makes sense.
However, to my point, there is something different about things this year, and whether that's for the better or worse, I'm not sure.

 

[Withnail]

I don't agree with it being "Too soon" or "Too late" tbh. I think it depends as to whether there's constant progression, and yes, at the moment there is. But there does, at the same time, seem to be questions about Ole, or in fairness, his coaching staff, and their long term ability to progress the team.

But,in his defence, I can't put it all down to him, and I don't buy the fitness excuse. We still seem to look like a lot of our players have less motivation to win the game than our opposition, and that has been a constant here in years gone by.

Actually the body language is a thing to notice, not because we lose or as a result of a poor performance, but because it HAS changed. Why has it changed? What is different? What is the reason a man, who himself said he is always positive, looks increasingly negative?
You cannot disregard body language because a lot of how people work and think, involves this, so for those of you dismissing it, educate yourself, please.

I don't agree that he should be sacked, but I also don't agree that he is entitled to unwavering support, if that makes sense.
However, to my point, there is something different about things this year, and whether that's for the better or worse, I'm not sure.

That's all understandable and I'm all for nuanced discussion of the issues surrounding any manager. None of them are without faults after all.

It's just extremely difficult to get that in this thread. I'm not a body language expert so I tend not to bother with it as I think a lot of people aren't body language experts either and it just seems like noise to me.
We aren't privy to conversations or team talks going on the in the background so we don't know if his demeanour, in general, behind the scenes has changed. It's an extremely difficult time at the moment for players, managers with covid restrictions, the extended season and short off-season. The transfer window is also still open and he hasn't gotten the players he wanted (yet) so maybe that all plays into it but we just don't know. I still think the importance of his demeanour on the touchline is over-blown.

I don't understand how you 'can't buy the fitness excuse'

Are you aware of the issues around match fitness, how long it takes players to get match fit and that they can only get match-fit by playing matches. There is only so much you can do on the training ground and it doesn't replicate match conditions. There has been some documentation posted around the forum about this. There is a reason teams play a lot of pre-season games. It takes something like 5-10 games to get fully match-fit and to get that sharpness and intensity into your play. If the opposition is two or three games ahead of you in their development at the start of the season this can have an impact.
How can you tell if it's motivation to win or just not being 100%? Being 5-10% off your best is huge at this level and can be the difference between winning and losing.

 

[RedorDead21]

He got us top 4th which was what we expected and wanted. Now we need him to have a team which never looks really in doubt to achieve the same and show improvements in consistency. Achieve those and its more than likely the gap to the top will close. He's not, like Jose, devaluing our star assets and hanging people out to dry, he's wanting to replace the same players the fans want to se upgraded...The treatment of Lingard being a great example since he came in. If we dont help him achieve the same with the rest.....just another case of us getting cold feet on a manager. Nothing new.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Keep him as long as we keep showing discernible,tangible improvement...

 

[saivet]

Seems like many of the Ole out crowd are professional football coaches and body language experts. Who would have thought there would be so many of them in a single Man United forum. This place is really special.

You don't need to be a professional football coach to have an opinion on tactics. It's really not all that complicated to have an opinion on style of play or a team's organisation.

 

[Robbie Boy]

This is a complete misrepresentation of what goes on after a defeat.

This thread blows up after a loss with all sorts of stuff about body language of the manager, style of play/patterns blah blah blah (although the list of complaints is getting shorter which points to progress he's made)

This is why it's characterised as a knee-jerk reaction. You'll notice it's calmed down a fair bit since City/Bayern/Wolves etc got their asses handed to them and it appears that match fitness and pre-seasons actually do make a difference to performances.

Due to the thread blowing up there is a backlash against the backlash and other people who think it's too soon to sack the manager point to the progress he's made etc.

No one who thinks the manager shouldn't be sacked at this stage is coming in here to bleat on about progress after a defeat out of the blue.

As for your last point, I get the impression there are a fair few who can't wait for Ole to fail so that he can be fired as they see this as inevitable due to him not being good enough in their eyes. The fact that managers only really have a shelf life of a 3 - 4 years at a top club and they all get fired eventually will be completely lost on those few when they come crowing with the 'I told you so's' whenever he does depart.

Just because a manager eventually gets fired, as they all do, doesn't mean people were right not to support the manager when he was doing good work.

Sorry but both extreme camps spout as much spin and propaganda as the other after every single match in order to suit their agenda. There's only a handful of rational posters in this thread with balanced views.

 

[Withnail]

Sorry but both extreme camps spout as much spin and propaganda as the other after every single match in order to suit their agenda. There's only a handful of rational posters in this thread with balanced views.

I haven't denied that at all.

I was replying directly to another poster who seemed to be suggesting people just randomly came in here to make excuses after a loss. I was just pointing out it's usually a reaction to the thread getting bumped.

 

[Bastian]

Seems like many of the Ole out crowd are professional football coaches and body language experts. Who would have thought there would be so many of them in a single Man United forum. This place is really special.

I know, there's a great deal of us professionals here

I'd vote for the following option if it was presented:

"Get a new manager next summer if Ole hasn't made significant progress to the overall team performance"

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

There are numerous Fergie models over his 26 year reign.

The only setup he didn't find himself in was under a DoF. But seeing as we don't have one of those, copying one of Fergie's examples is inevitable, hence why I mentioned the specific era.

On a Manchester United forum, it's an obvious reference. On a Bayern Munich forum, they might mention Otmar Hitzfeld to make the identical point. On a Spurs forum they might mention, like, I don't know, Martin Jol.

I think what he is pointing to is that the best managers now are also great coaches. Trying to emulate the Fergie model in having a manager separated from the coaching aspect is definitely holding us back.

 

[Dante]

I think what he is pointing to is that the best managers now are also great coaches. Trying to emulate the Fergie model in having a manager separated from the coaching aspect is definitely holding us back.

There's been a mixture of successful approaches for decades, there's still a mixture now and there'll be a mixture forever more.

Trying to emulate the Klopp model in having a manager combined with the coaching aspect is definitely holding us back.

 

[Foxbatt]

I don't know what goes behind close doors so I can't comment on the training but having played professional and being on the coaching staff of a CL experienced manager I can tell you that not everything is good at United.
Players know and have to trust the manager. That trust is based on what he can do for them and then the team.
Teams at the bottom end know that they have no chance of winning a trophy so their commitment is less than the top teams.
When teams don't play well the players look to the manager to get them on the right path. Players accept individual errors but they rely on the coaches for the system errors.
If managers can't deliver the players lose faith.
Do the players at let's say Newcastle have faith in Bruce to win them the PL? I don't think so.
Do the players at United have faith in Ole to win them the PL? I don't know. Personally I don't think so. Do they have faith in him in delivering a CL spot? At this moment in time I think so.
So it's not a point of sacking or keeping Ole. It's whether he has the ability and capacity to win a major trophy or simply get us into the CL.
As a life long supporter of Manchester United since the 60s and having seen them even in the old 2nd division I never want to see United struggling because we got the wrong manager.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I haven't denied that at all.

I was replying directly to another poster who seemed to be suggesting people just randomly came in here to make excuses after a loss. I was just pointing out it's usually a reaction to the thread getting bumped.

I find it's also bumped by a certain few 'Ole in' posters as soon as we win a game, to gloat or act totally and utterly condescending. It all works both ways imo, except both sides think they're in the right. This thread is a daily loop of the same posters having the same arguments.

For what it's worth, from reading your posts you are certainly one of the more balanced 'Ole in' posters. I do find there's one particular 'Ole in' poster on here who lets the whole side down and just stirs up tensions and causes childish arguments. The one particularly bad 'Ole out' poster was thankfully banned.

 

[sammsky1]

The obsession with trying to emulate Ferguson is what is holding your club back in my opinion

Yes and No. But mainly no.

Ferguson and Busby created football teams which generated identical emotions which were very enjoyable for United fans. Emulating a similar set of emotions within fans is what will keep any new manager in his job. As Mourinho found out, success without these values will still get you sacked.

Also, Ferguson went through so many types of management mode during his time. His first 6 years is fundamentally different to the middle phase which is fundamentally different to his latter days. There are so many facts of his encyclopaedia of management that virtually every PL manager will go through.

OGS is trying to re-kindle values of the club that the fanbase is used to and loves. This was a disconnect every fan felt during the haphazard adventures of Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. This is the cultural reset he and Woodward have committed to. Its why so many players are on the scrapheap.

Rodgers started the process that Klopp finished at Liverpool, which was the key to their renaissance. It will be interesting to see how Spurs fans deal with Mourinho emotion laden success, vs the happy go lucky culture they've enjoyed over the years.

 

[Resch]

One simple question: Can you see enough development?
One simple question with many aspects!

I can not see it, the development of all the important aspects! The results are ok, but the football is just not good enough. We are outcoached too often and Ole does not have a clue how to turn things around in a match.
We have great players and some big holes in the squad. But Ole just has one formation and one plan. So he runs the players into the ground.
We do not have wingers to use the width and no tactics to use our fullbacks on the wing.
Too often we break down a defense and have not enough players in the box to score.
The movement as a team is still not good.
Pressing is a possibility but we just try it hard enough.

Ole has formed a team, brought back the team spirit, but is this enough to be the manager of Manchester United?

 

[Van Piorsing]

Ole has formed a team, brought back the team spirit, but is this enough to be the manager of Manchester United?

Clearly nope, but instilling winning mentality like Fergie did took long years. Appointing new manager is condemning United on another years of assessments... and we surely would want to appoint someone best possible if Woodward would even consider sacking Ole which is not the case at the moment.

Get the best manager in the world or stop wasting time on another short term solution like Moyes, LvG or Mou, meanwhile Solskjaer is clearly building despite obvious problems rather than destroying.

 

[Withnail]

I find it's also bumped by a certain few 'Ole in' posters as soon as we win a game, to gloat or act totally and utterly condescending. It all works both ways imo, except both sides think they're in the right. This thread is a daily loop of the same posters having the same arguments.

For what it's worth, from reading your posts you are certainly one of the more balanced 'Ole in' posters. I do find there's one particular 'Ole in' poster on here who lets the whole side down and just stirs up tensions and causes childish arguments. The one particularly bad 'Ole out' poster was thankfully banned.

Cheers man. I'm just looking for a bit or perspective and I get that people are pissed off with a whole heap of things going on at the club. I just don't think we're there yet with the manager. It might be a different story after 6 or 7 more games so we'll see.

As for the other bit, there is always the ignore button. Some people are very good at skirting the edges of what's seemed acceptable so I find it handy from time to time to give myself a break.

 

[Foxbatt]

Sunday is going to be a very interesting day no matter what. This is our biggest test and lets hope we can make Jose upset no matter how we win the match.

 

[Withnail]

Sunday is going to be a very interesting day no matter what. This is our biggest test and lets hope we can make Jose upset no matter how we win the match.

You might say it's Ole's first big test

 

[Paxi]

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[Foxbatt]

You might say it's Ole's first big test

I agree with you and last year against City and Liverpool we were not under any pressure to win those. If we won, then it was a positive and if we lost then it was as everyone expected us to lose. Sunday it is a different situation. It is Jose and Spurs with new players and a must win match for us. Jose is not going to let us have those space behind his defence.
Is Son injured for Sunday?

 

[Robbie Boy]

You might say it's Ole's first big test

 

[Paxi]

Couldn't agree more with Keano.

Me too. No excuses this season but he obviously needs to be backed as well.

 

[Leftback99]

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I agree. If we don't invest top 4 would be a struggle for any manager.

 

[Escobar]

For once Roy is right

 

[Anustart89]

I agree. If we don't invest top 4 would be a struggle for any manager.

You don't think there's any manager out there who would get 4th with our current squad?

 

[Foxbatt]

You don't think there's any manager out there who would get 4th with our current squad?

There is. There are few managers who would get us to play a lot better than we play now. If Ole can do it so much the better.

 

[red4ever 79]

I agree. If we don't invest top 4 would be a struggle for any manager.

I dont get this invest malarky. Ole has spent 240m in 18 months on 5 players. That's half a team basically added to already established names such as De Gea, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Martial. I acknowledge our squad players are crap, however Ole should be doing better with this team that what he is currently doing. Mind you 80m on Maguire is just robbery

 

[Leftback99]

You don't think there's any manager out there who would get 4th with our current squad?

Many including Ole could. It's just far from certain.

 

[Anustart89]

There is. There are few managers who would get us to play a lot better than we play now. If Ole can do it so much the better.

That's my thinking too, but people on here are acting as if Ole is getting the absolute best out of this team and the only thing stopping us from conceding sloppy goals is a £108m right winger.

There are plenty of managers who would manage to get more than 58% of the maximum available points in a season from this squad, but people need for us to drop out of the top 4 to be able to admit it.

 

[Anustart89]

Many including Ole could. It's just far from certain.

While nothing is certain in the world, I think there are plenty of managers out there who are far more likely to get the team to play better in terms of results and entertainment.

So the question is if you would rather change the manager or give the same manager another £200m to spend on players who might not even get you the desired results? What's the better investment for the board?

 

[Leftback99]

While nothing is certain in the world, I think there are plenty of managers out there who are far more likely to get the team to play better in terms of results and entertainment.

That's all just guesswork. It's a blinkered view assuming you'll get the very best of the incoming manager's best football with no negative affects of sacking the current one. Old ground in this thread but we've been there before with LVG and Mourinho assuming everything would be better.

Is there a better manager for us out there? No doubt.

Would we pick the right one? Highly unlikely.

Has the bar for sacking Solskjaer and taking that risk been reached? Nowhere near.

 

[Anustart89]

That's all just guesswork. It's a blinkered view assuming you'll get the very best of the incoming manager's best football with no negative affects of sacking the current one. Old ground in this thread but we've been there before with LVG and Mourinho assuming everything would be better.

Is there a better manager for us out there? No doubt.

Would we pick the right one? Highly unlikely.

Has the bar for sacking Solskjaer and taking that risk been reached? Nowhere near.

If you were a finance guy, doesn't keeping Solskjaer and needing to back him with £200m to just ensure top four present a bigger financial risk?

 

[Leftback99]

If you were a finance guy, doesn't keeping Solskjaer and needing to back him with £200m to just ensure top four present a bigger financial risk?

No clubs would be spending so much in the transfer market if it was that easy. Instead just pay the money to the genius managers that don't need to buy anyone (who don't exist).

Chelsea have spent £220m in the last couple of months I assume they should have just got Poch or whoever you are suggesting instead?

 

[Mainoldo]

No clubs would be spending so much in the transfer market if it was that easy. Instead just pay the money to the genius managers that don't need to buy anyone (who don't exist).

Chelsea have spent £220m in the last couple of months I assume they should have just got Poch or whoever you are suggesting instead?

Eventually they’ll need to get a Poch. Them believing in this Lampard experiment is an entertaining watch I tell you that.

 

[United Hobbit]

I think he is out of his depth but sacking him won't solve anything until the problems above him are fixed or we will continue the cycle.

What would people think of someone like Bielsa from Leeds. Obviously not happening but would people rate him above Ole? Certainly plays attacking football! You also wouldn't know what crazy thing he was going to do next

 

[Anustart89]

No clubs would be spending so much in the transfer market if it was that easy. Instead just pay the money to the genius managers that don't need to buy anyone (who don't exist).

Chelsea have spent £220m in the last couple of months I assume they should have just got Poch or whoever you are suggesting instead?

I’m not saying that a fancy manager’s a magic bullet and that it replaces investment in the squad for every club, but the people who think that Ole’s not part of the problems with this club’s results are implying that it’s simply not reasonable to expect a squad containing De Gea (Henderson), Maguire, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Martial among others to compete for top 4 without a couple hundred million quid more, and that’s simply a false statement.

I never said that other managers don’t need to spend either, but for all the talk about how great Ole’s recruitment is, we’re not really (as a fans’ collective) in agreement that the £150m spent last summer was very good value for money in terms of how he supposedly wants us to play football.

But to answer your point, do I think that Chelsea would get better results with another manager than Frank Lampard? Yes, I do.

 

[Foxbatt]

Didn't Chelsea offer a name your price offer to SAF? Top class managers are worth their weight in gold. Of course no manager is going to win the league with a Sunday pub team but a top class manager will make his team play a lot better than an ordinary manager.

 

[Leftback99]

I’m not saying that a fancy manager’s a magic bullet and that it replaces investment in the squad for every club, but the people who think that Ole’s not part of the problems with this club’s results are implying that it’s simply not reasonable to expect a squad containing De Gea (Henderson), Maguire, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Martial among others to compete for top 4 without a couple hundred million quid more, and that’s simply a false statement.

I never said that other managers don’t need to spend either, but for all the talk about how great Ole’s recruitment is, we’re not really (as a fans’ collective) in agreement that the £150m spent last summer was very good value for money in terms of how he supposedly wants us to play football.

But to answer your point, do I think that Chelsea would get better results with another manager than Frank Lampard? Yes, I do.

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't compete for top 4 with what we have but we're no dead certs under any manager.

Maybe Chelsea would but their management obviously don't think so as they've just backed him with £220m (and possibly rising). It's never as simple as getting the flavour of the month manager in and ripping everything up for them.

 

[Leftback99]

Didn't Chelsea offer a name your price offer to SAF? Top class managers are worth their weight in gold. Of course no manager is going to win the league with a Sunday pub team but a top class manager will make his team play a lot better than an ordinary manager.

Who is that manager we could realistically 'buy' and why are you so sure?

 

[Foxbatt]

Who is that manager we could realistically 'buy' and why are you so sure?

Why are you so sure that Ole will win us trophies? One can always go by how someone managers a club in the present and the immediate past. Nagelsmann is one I would prefer over Ole for sure. Even Carlo is better for me than Ole. Have a few European ones that can do well currently but most of them are at top clubs and would not want to move to United now I feel. United is now not a huge attraction for top managers.