Same clowns that demand this thread to be closed are now spamming with thing that are nothing to do with this thread.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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If you want to see clear progress then give it 4 or 5 years. You think progress is linear? Sometimes you have to go sideways or back one step to go forward two.
It took Klopp 4 years to win his first trophy with Liverpool yet you expect Solskjaer to have won one now, after one full season in the job. Last season we weren't even expected to get top 4 yet we did, how is that not palpable progress? Does he not deserve this full season alone based on that?
I hate to break it to you but Ronaldo and Messi have carried their teams for years. That's what good players do, it's their job, that's why they're paid so highly. Not everyone can be that good, not everyone can be a match winner, you can't coach players to be Messi or Ronaldo.
We've gone from a very counter attacking team to a team that are now able to switch it up. I think some of you have sort memories about us sitting deep and defending against shit teams, waiting for a counter. We have changed and we have adapted, and we're getting players in that can do it better but it's a process and some of you are obviously unwilling to wait.
Care to elaborate?
And what about the record against top 4?
Do you reckon any manager would have got more points in the early part of last season without Pogba /Bruno and injuries to Martial and Rashford without any backup centre forward?
It addresses the argument that is a lot about match fitness and shows it in more teams then just United. The "clowns" that did not want to accept that argument might want to rethink things now.
Will SolskjaerOut crew stand up and apologize for its comments about fitness now? Seeing both Chelsea and ManCity losing points. I would say West Ham has good chance today to against Wolverhampton.
All those teams need about 2-4 weeks more, including us, to find their form and settle down.
All those teams need about 2-4 weeks more, including us, to find their form and settle down.
This is a big ask as they normally respond with "I don't care about other clubs, I only care about United" cop out
Sorry but top managers have their sides motivated and ready to go on a consistent basis. For top 4 matches the fixture itself provides motivation and there you see he's not tactically inept, but when he can't get the players up for it on consistent basis those top 4 results ultimately don't get us anywhere closer to challenging for titles. Also there's no excuse for dropping so many points against lower table sides.
Progress is not fully linear I agree, but its mostly linear. We can't be going with these highs and lows and call them progress, under that logic any manager should be allowed to get 4-5 years. Even Mourinho.
Where do you take that I expect Ole to have won one title by now? You made that up yourself.
We werent expected to achieve top 4? Of course we were expected to achieve it. At the begging of the season of course we were, actually we were the favorites to end up third. It seems we redefine our expectations to last January, yes in that moment no one expected of to finished top 4 because we had been so shit in the first half of the season. But thats on Ole, getting top 4 is a great achievement from the point of view of January when it looked lost. But as a season overall its an average/good result at best.
I dont even know what to answer to the Messi and Ronaldo statement, I mean how the heck does that argument has anything to do with our current discussion? Theyre not even on this league.
I dont know even what our system is, since we dont consistently play under one. Against top teams is clear we play counterattack, against medium and lesser opposition? Who the feck knows, it depends on how or players feel like playing that day.
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FFS its been two games this season for Wan Bissaka after starting late and not having a preseason because he went to Dubai and had to quarantine on the way back. The beauty of playing for Leicester or Palace vs playing for United is that at mid-table clubs people only remember the good games, while at United, the bad games are magnified just as much if not more.
You conveniently forgot Fred, who looked like a proper premier league midfielder for the majority of last season under Ole, Shaw who found a new lease of life, Rashford who's broken the 20 goal barrier along with Martial for the first time and the two of them alongside Greenwood and Fernandes look as potent an attack as any in Europe for most of last season.
16 last games in the PL: 10 wins 5 draws 1 loss. Brainwashed cult-like numpties?
Watch the rats instead, and how they behave where there is a little rainfall.
City thrashed by 3 goals
Chelsea after spending 200m drew against a newly promoted WBA
Spurs drew to Newcastle
Atleast one of Arsenal/Pool will drop points tomorrow
We won our game this week unlike our rivals.
Maybe the other big 6 clubs need to think about changing their managers as well?
Chelsea after spending 200m drew against a newly promoted WBA
Spurs drew to Newcastle
Atleast one of Arsenal/Pool will drop points tomorrow
We won our game this week unlike our rivals.
Maybe the other big 6 clubs need to think about changing their managers as well?
For the same reason our very own SAF lost a lot of games because no one is unbeatable but the difference is he instilled a mental strength in our players to make sure it happened as few a times as possible. This current United side doesn't have anywhere near the same mental strength which is why we're going to struggle over the course of the season.
Let’s hope today teaches OleOUT crew some humility and that perhaps they are not the Einstein’s of PL football after all.
In the second half of the season with a full team featuring Bruno and Pogba we had less issues with beating smaller teams.
You need to have the right players available to best low block teams.
Coaching and Patterns of play?
Is that what we should be talking about?
You can't see the wood for the trees. I was going to reply in detail but I think we probably view football very differently.
I'll be cheering on the team as always every game but can't help but feel we are just dragging out the inevitable and there's so little proof of Ole actually changing performances on the pitch/having any kind of broader plan for how we are to close the gap. No matter how anyone spins it/cherry picks facts/points to specific runs of games where we've done well we are just as inconsistent and bemusing to watch as we were under Mourinho in his last season. Only difference is we like Ole and VAR seems to owe us something despite another £200m plus of transfers.
The thing is, you're not wrong. Perhaps Pep has had his cycle and can no longer coach his team to be effective and get the most out of them.No defensive shape, no pressing triggers, no triangles, players not coached in positional play, no pride, no work ethic (did I miss anything?)
pepOUT
ooop. Sorry, wrong thread.
Like all other clubs in Europe, his position should and is questioned.
Likewise, we should be applying the same standards to Ole/the manager of Utd.
That's what most of us are saying. Ole has had and deserved 2 years of time and it will not last much longer than that if we continue the way we are.
Tumbleweed.
Just because I view things differently dorms mean I “can’t see the wood for the trees”.
The plan and the direction are very clear. Look where we were 18 months ago and where we are now. You are right that we see football differently, but I won’t insult you just because you have a different opinion to me.
I would like to see this Formation
This would play to our strength because it would eliminate the need for a right winger, which we do not have. Also, it would reduce the attacking expectancy on our fullbacks. When we are attacking, Pogba can step forward into CM/AM to dictate play and our fullbacks would step into DM alongside Matic to man mark and break opposition counter attack and simply recycle it, rather than trying to force crosses which is not their strength. We would still have two CBs free to positional mark.
It would also allow us to easily sit back and counter if there's ever the need to. In such a situation, Bruno and Rashford would play deeper and we would still have two players up front to hold up play bring their teammates into it.
We would also have a good enough cover incase of injury. We wouldn't play like a team with red card because we wouldn't need a right winger to function properly.
Best of all, we would still play our beloved fast attacking football.
De gea
Wan Bissaka--Bailly--Maguire--Shaw
Matic --- --- Pogba
Bruno ------ ------ Rashford
Greenwood --- Martial
Wan Bissaka--Bailly--Maguire--Shaw
Matic --- --- Pogba
Bruno ------ ------ Rashford
Greenwood --- Martial
This would play to our strength because it would eliminate the need for a right winger, which we do not have. Also, it would reduce the attacking expectancy on our fullbacks. When we are attacking, Pogba can step forward into CM/AM to dictate play and our fullbacks would step into DM alongside Matic to man mark and break opposition counter attack and simply recycle it, rather than trying to force crosses which is not their strength. We would still have two CBs free to positional mark.
It would also allow us to easily sit back and counter if there's ever the need to. In such a situation, Bruno and Rashford would play deeper and we would still have two players up front to hold up play bring their teammates into it.
We would also have a good enough cover incase of injury. We wouldn't play like a team with red card because we wouldn't need a right winger to function properly.
Best of all, we would still play our beloved fast attacking football.
what do you think?
Like how we've lost 1 game since Burnley in January? That kind of mental strength?
We'd need AWB and Shaw to be much better down the wings. I think Telles could be a good option as a LWB but Bissaka still needs to improve his attacking play before we could adopt such a system.
One more time for those in the back, he lost points mostly because they couldn’t be arsed against bottom table sides. That has nothing to do with the team sheet. Hell we almost bottled third place because of the same issues and that was with Bruno and Pogba.
Taking United out for a second that was a big win for Ole yesterday just like the Spurs and City matches last Xmas when under pressure. We seem to win when the questions are being asked of him.
The problem with this is that Man Utd which aren’t expected to make a title challenge and only top 4 he should be meeting the minimum requirement that he will never be under pressure.
I’m on the fence at the moment, he deserved to start this season as manager for finishing 3rd and I don’t care if people say we only got 66 points and other seasons it wasn’t good enough for top 4, but it was last season and he got us too 3rd. The problem I have is I don’t see a system bar counter attacking and feel he is nowhere near the level we need. He shouldn’t be learning at Utd he should be a top coach.
The problem with this is that Man Utd which aren’t expected to make a title challenge and only top 4 he should be meeting the minimum requirement that he will never be under pressure.
I’m on the fence at the moment, he deserved to start this season as manager for finishing 3rd and I don’t care if people say we only got 66 points and other seasons it wasn’t good enough for top 4, but it was last season and he got us too 3rd. The problem I have is I don’t see a system bar counter attacking and feel he is nowhere near the level we need. He shouldn’t be learning at Utd he should be a top coach.
What do you mean by "he couldn't be arsed" ? as if he didn't care about the result.
"Bottled third place"? Getting third was an achievement considering from where we started with a depleted team.
I think we can be set up in a way that will require less attacking demands from our fullbacks as their duty would be to quickly break opposition counter and pass it to our midfielders to keep opposition pinned back.. maybe its just a crazy theory/idea in my head.
This is my last post ability today, so we can continue this discussion tomorrow.
I love Ole but I wasn't sure if he was just defending the team by saying that the fitness isn't up to mark. But today's results prove that what he has been saying may actually be true.
People forget that we haven't had a pre-season, unlike our two opponents that we've faced. Obviously, we wouldn't be that sharp. The fact we got three points, from a possible six isn't something to have a meltdown over
I think part of our problem comes from breaking down teams who defend deep, we primarily try to play our way through these defenses with intricate passes, one-twos etc but often don't succeed for one reason or another. It's absolutely vital that we stretch defences by having more of a wide threat and being able to get in behind defences too.
I wouldn't be convinced they've forgotten.
It's been pointed out multiple times but they have been denying it's a issue. This seems to be because it doesn't suit their view on Ole.
At least now there is a growing body of evidence to show that it is indeed a factor even though it really should have been obvious.
It's actually getting funny now how the goalposts keep moving, for some who seem invested in the manager failing, each time they are proven wrong.
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“They couldn’t be arsed”, as in the players. Why would they be referring to one person?What do you mean by "he couldn't be arsed" ? as if he didn't care about the result.
"Bottled third place"? Getting third was an achievement considering from where we started with a depleted team.
66 points will get you third place once in a handful of seasons. Seeing as the issues that resulted in such a low point total are still rearing their ugly head, he should not keep getting the benefit of the doubt.We absolutely need more width but I can't see that happening without some additions. All of our forwards like to cut in and if Shaw is injured we've no one who's comfortable going on the outside from LB.
Exactly it's a big problem for us. Maybe Telles could help us a bit in that regard, I think Sancho also likes to cut in too so we'd probably have the same problem had we signed him.
Here is where we fundamentally disagree: OGS isn't under any pressure of being sacked from the club or vast majority of the fans. We all think life is good and we are moving in the right direction. It's only OleOUT who are inventing this pressure bubble in their echo chamber, it doesn't exist in real life. Ole has had 1.5 seasons so far. Lets stop with the disingenuous inflation; some OleOUT even try it on by saying he's in his 3rd season
I accept that we have fallen far from the top (average 5th since SAF left) and it takes gradual progress to get back to the top. We could have gotten there by now but Woodward imploded by sacking Mourinho, so we fell back abit.
I see OGS's progress as a wonderful glass half full and am prepared to give him the 3 or 4 years that Klopp and SAF got to produce a brilliant and title winning team. And I don't change my judgment after every 5 or 10 games (let alone the match by match guillotine OleOUT seem to jerk off with). Over a period of months, Ole has delivered on every tangible and quantitative metric he can be measured by. So he has my full unwavering support for this entire season.
I have progressive targets which I'd like him to reach which would comfort me for the following season: If we cant win the league this season, be at least 10-12 points off the eventual winners, achieve at least 75 points, absolutely be in top 4, make last 16 in ECL and would be great to make a final in one of the cups. Id also like to see some improvements on key team metrics like goals scored and conceded, km covered, forward passes, time in possession etc etc. And I'll make a personal assessment next summer.
Im enjoying the journey on our team improving as I know that will eventually lead to a title.
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Looking at a heat map from the previous season it looks like he keeps width for the most part.
Although whether this is purely to do with Dortmund's tactics or not remains to be seen.
https://echteliebe.uk/analysis/player-analysis/high-can-jadon-sancho-go
Well said.
TL;DR: Ole doesn't improve players he buys, therefore needs to buy the finished product. Based on the board's lack of willingness to do so, keeping Ole will only prolong the status quo of us dropping in and out of the top 4.
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Based on the turnaround in mentality and performances when Ole took over, he'd fully deserved a shot at showing the higher-ups what he could do with the team and the club. We're one and a half season into his project and I haven't really seen anything from him to secure results other than "acquire better players" and counter-attack, which isn't feasible against a low block which is what we're facing roughly 70% of the time. One and a half season into his tenure and we're still looking at the need to recruit better players because most players that he had at his disposal haven't improved significantly (obvious exceptions Greenwood who has been very well managed and Martial who has improved from almost being sold by José, the nutter), and some of those that he has brought in have obvious weaknesses and there are voices that want them replaced already (James, AWB mainly).
We lambast the lack of investment in the squad, but one problem with his recruitment is that it feels like Ole thinks that only the absolute best (most expensive) players are deemed good enough, and those players cost a fortune. If we're to strengthen the squad with 5-6 first team players, we can't have them all costing over £50m and up to £100m if we expect to get the rebuild done in less than five years, can we? I mean, no sane board would sanction the purchase of six players at £75m over a two year period, would they?
To me it signals that the only way Ole sees to improve the squad is to buy the finished product, which costs a fortune. It signals that he doesn't believe he can improve players that are bought from lesser sides for less money (or has a system that improves the players and highlights their qualities). Pogba, for example, a World Cup winner and Serie A winner, fails to show the quality that made him cost £89m, which everyone believed was a fair price at the time (in the context of the market at the time), and now we have people saying that he's just not that good a player, so it's all his fault.
As important as good recruitment is, improving players at your disposal and playing to their strengths is much more important, because no manager in this day and age gets to build an entire squad, let alone multiple times, because transfer fees are so high that replacing an entire squad at the top level is a huge investment for the board.
There are many managers who buy players who slot into a system that they're using which makes them much better than they seem when they move to another team and another system. Dortmund had a lot of those players, Werner's looking a lesser player under Lampard than under Nagelsmann and Klopp made Liverpool a much better team with signings in the £30-40m bracket, before being allowed to splurge on VvD and Alisson to take them up to the absolute top level. What has Ole done on the pitch so far to deserve that? He was given £150m to spend on three players (and then another £50m on a fourth) and managed to salvage a top 4 finish on the last day of the season, while 33 points off the league winners. I still don't see us being any better at breaking down low blocks, other than introducing more individual quality in the side in Greenwood and Fernandes. We relied on a lot of penalties to carry us over the line at the tail end of last season.
What do we expect to happen if Ole is given more resources and time as manager? We might sign a few better players, who are going to give us more individual quality against low blocks, but we will still be reliant on moments of individual skill to take us over the line. The only thing that will keep us in the top four is outspending our rivals, and seeing as the board's shown over a few cycles that they aren't very inclined to keep spending when we're in the top four, it'll just be another two-three years where we yo-yo in and out of the top four, the club buys players at irregular intervals to push us back into the top 4, and time will pass as we hope that our best players don't end up leaving for a lack of title challenges, or retiring due to old age...
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Based on the turnaround in mentality and performances when Ole took over, he'd fully deserved a shot at showing the higher-ups what he could do with the team and the club. We're one and a half season into his project and I haven't really seen anything from him to secure results other than "acquire better players" and counter-attack, which isn't feasible against a low block which is what we're facing roughly 70% of the time. One and a half season into his tenure and we're still looking at the need to recruit better players because most players that he had at his disposal haven't improved significantly (obvious exceptions Greenwood who has been very well managed and Martial who has improved from almost being sold by José, the nutter), and some of those that he has brought in have obvious weaknesses and there are voices that want them replaced already (James, AWB mainly).
We lambast the lack of investment in the squad, but one problem with his recruitment is that it feels like Ole thinks that only the absolute best (most expensive) players are deemed good enough, and those players cost a fortune. If we're to strengthen the squad with 5-6 first team players, we can't have them all costing over £50m and up to £100m if we expect to get the rebuild done in less than five years, can we? I mean, no sane board would sanction the purchase of six players at £75m over a two year period, would they?
To me it signals that the only way Ole sees to improve the squad is to buy the finished product, which costs a fortune. It signals that he doesn't believe he can improve players that are bought from lesser sides for less money (or has a system that improves the players and highlights their qualities). Pogba, for example, a World Cup winner and Serie A winner, fails to show the quality that made him cost £89m, which everyone believed was a fair price at the time (in the context of the market at the time), and now we have people saying that he's just not that good a player, so it's all his fault.
As important as good recruitment is, improving players at your disposal and playing to their strengths is much more important, because no manager in this day and age gets to build an entire squad, let alone multiple times, because transfer fees are so high that replacing an entire squad at the top level is a huge investment for the board.
There are many managers who buy players who slot into a system that they're using which makes them much better than they seem when they move to another team and another system. Dortmund had a lot of those players, Werner's looking a lesser player under Lampard than under Nagelsmann and Klopp made Liverpool a much better team with signings in the £30-40m bracket, before being allowed to splurge on VvD and Alisson to take them up to the absolute top level. What has Ole done on the pitch so far to deserve that? He was given £150m to spend on three players (and then another £50m on a fourth) and managed to salvage a top 4 finish on the last day of the season, while 33 points off the league winners. I still don't see us being any better at breaking down low blocks, other than introducing more individual quality in the side in Greenwood and Fernandes. We relied on a lot of penalties to carry us over the line at the tail end of last season.
What do we expect to happen if Ole is given more resources and time as manager? We might sign a few better players, who are going to give us more individual quality against low blocks, but we will still be reliant on moments of individual skill to take us over the line. The only thing that will keep us in the top four is outspending our rivals, and seeing as the board's shown over a few cycles that they aren't very inclined to keep spending when we're in the top four, it'll just be another two-three years where we yo-yo in and out of the top four, the club buys players at irregular intervals to push us back into the top 4, and time will pass as we hope that our best players don't end up leaving for a lack of title challenges, or retiring due to old age...
Your team has one of the best form over the last 20 games, and there is a Ole out poll? O_o
Welcome to the Caf!
What a simplistic view. Remember when you lot were overachieving last season, sitting in second, and people were saying that you didn't look that convincing? Who ended up being right? You had a great form column then, but performances dropped, as was expected.
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