Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[blue blue]

I don't know what's worse: the fact that only around 75% were "Ole In" in this thread after last season, or the fact that as much as 10% have changed their vote based on the last 3 PL games

As regular visitor to these pages I'm a little surprised its that good.

After the Spurs game I thought the Cafe would want his head on a stick.

I think its encouraging that 75% want to back him. Especially on a volatile forum like this.

From an outsiders point of view it seems to me that the Utd team is going through a period of........ I'm not going to say transition because it suggests there's an overall plan and I don't think there is.............. a period of lets say, lesser prominence. This happens in football. Teams have strong runs of form and dominance and then somebody else does. On the whole it changes based upon the quality of player and manager. Both of these have to be at a very high level at the same time for a Championship to be won. Presently it doesn't matter too much who is in control of the Utd team because the playing staff just aren't good enough. Sometimes a good manager can generate a special atmosphere in a dressing room and raise the players performance levels but overall it takes a convergence of a few things before titles can be won or contested.

Unfortunately Utd aren't close to this convergence and the best they can hope for is that Ole gets the players playing to their full potential and the rest of us suffer melt downs. Looking forward I think most Utd fans realize the player recruitment policy over the last 7-8 years has been disjointed and to be frank they haven't been signing real marque players. They always used to sign proven top quality such as Nistleroy, Rooney, Cantona, Ferdinand etc but the best they have bought in recent years is Pogba. I really can't see them returning to prominence until they start buying top quality players again and/or they get a top group of youth players coming through. Ole in or out.

The only plan I see is the Glazers milking the pot until the fanbase walks away.

 

[Withnail]

This is the logic our board use, and it seems it's filtering down to the fans now. Waiting until its too late to salvage our season has been the pattern we've followed for our last 3 managers.

Despite some good performances last season, overall the poor performances outweighed the good. Going into this season we look as bad as we did last year. Ole was very lucky to survive the Xmas period, and the Covid break allowed him and us to regroup. He will not have that luxury this year. By now we absolutely should be seeing his ideas translated on the pitch, yet we still have a completed divided fanbase on his performances and style. That is not good for the supposed biggest club in the country.

His time here suggest a "streaky" manager. We will have periods where we look like we've finally cracked it, but Ole's over reliance on his core 11 will lead to burnout, fatigue and obviously poor performances. City aside no club in the country has a second 11, so the drop off in quality has to be managed. For me Ole does not know how to utilise his squad beyond a core 11 or so players. That wouldn't be accepted in the lower leagues and absolutely should not be tolerated here.

The shift in rhetoric to defend him shows that even some of the staunchest Ole In posters are no longer sure what they're defending. Last season his signings were lauded, now their level has declined claims that they weren't his signings have started to creep into the Caf.

Well the staunchest one way or the other probably shouldn't be listened to. There's a tendency towards mental gymnastics if you're that invested in something.

I think the juries still out in a lot of ways. After lockdown I can appreciate it was difficult to get everyone match fit and the fringe players didn't impress when they did come in.

We'll see over the next run of games if anyone's level has actually declined and if manager's really not up to it.

 

[b82REZ]

Well the staunchest one way or the other probably shouldn't be listened to. There's a tendency towards mental gymnastics if you're that invested in something.

I think the juries still out in a lot of ways. After lockdown I can appreciate it was difficult to get everyone match fit and the fringe players didn't impress when they did come in.

We'll see over the next run of games if anyone's level has actually declined and if manager's really not up to it.

Do you think almost 2 years in the jury should still be out?

 

[Bilbo]

People need to think a bit more rationally.

Last season - we exceeded expectations - 66 points or not, we were worse than just 2 teams in the league - City and Pool - who were arguably 2 of the 5 best teams in Europe last season. The Bruno excuse doesn't fly, because in that case you need to acknowledge that this is the signing that should have been done 6 months ago, we didn't have Pogba Martial and Rashford for quite a few games. McT got injured when he was hitting form.

That made his position at the club as safe as it could be for any rational person. We were playing good football, we were getting results, we were doing everything right on and off the pitch.

Now, 3 games into the new season, the defence that was among the best not just in terms of goals conceded but also shots against, xG conceded, etc. is now getting shit. Especially at a time when every top defence has struggled. The manager is suddenly not good enough on the basis of 3 fecking games? At least there should be a good enough sample size, because should Ole be sacked this early in the season, this would go down as a knejeerk sacking for obvious reasons.

Agree with this. The challenge for Ole now is quite different to last season. We mostly had a team that picked itself so the challenge was simply getting results, which ultimately have been very good after we signed a desperately needed AM.

This season, he has many more options available to him so the challenge he has now is finding the right balance, particularly in midfield, which has been the root cause of our poor performances so far. Pogba is not performing. Does he have the strength to take him out of the side? How will VDB be integrated into the team? What will he do with the attack once Cavani is up to speed? Will he be more flexible with the formation? Henderson or De Gea?

We will find out a lot about what type of manager Ole is this season, and whether he is ultimately going to be our guy.

 

[Shark]

It doesn't make sense to sack him after 3 games but I just want to get it out there that the plethora of excuses Ole had when he performed poorly since he came isn't valid anymore after this break. We have strong depth now, quality players, and a squad that should be fit.

The excuses will never end, just as they didn't right before Moyes was sacked. Some top reds will stand by their manager so matter what's unfolding in front of their eyes. Ole obviously deserves the highest amount of respect and when he came in as caretaker he lifted the club out of what seemed like an eternal fall. His work at United will no doubt be appreciated when Poch or whoever takes charge next but it's simply not working now and regardless of our past three games, the performances have been stale for a long stretch now after the promising start resuming last season.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Have you watched that back though? Only one of those was a proper chance. 4 of the 5 were from outside of the box and De Gea had his angles covered. Granted we were poor and got out of jail at the end but the woodwork stuff had been overblown.

I was giving him 10 games and quickly checked the date of the 11th which is I think West ham on Dec 5th but yeah it would be Nov 28th, really.

I watched the game and we were absolutely appalling. There's no defending what came before the international break and we need to considerably improve, starting with Newcastle away. I think it'll be evident in the next 5 games whether he has any hope of lasting the season.

I honestly think he's a dead man walking right now and it would take a colossal improvement for me to think otherwise. Of course he may be safe as houses but I feel there's no smoke without fire regarding some of the recent leaks.

 

[rotherham_red]

I haven't read all the posts, but I doubt that anyone has claimed anything remotely close to that.

Ole has generally done very well when he's had a decent team to field. In 2019, if we exclude the games where we had neither Pogba nor Bruno(20 games), then we averaged 2.1 points per game. That is really good for a team that according to anyone who knows football is nowhere close to winning the league.

So far there is much evidence that Solskjær is a good coach when his team is decent, and more or less no evidence of the contrary apart from the last 4 games. The only thing you could fault Solskjær for is his results when key players are missing. But looking at our bench and looking at the sort of football Solskjær wants to play, there is no wonder that we struggle when injuries strike. I don't think any coach in this world would be able to do much with Lingard or Pereira as the link between midfield and attack. Not unless the rest of the team is world class or bordering to it.

I could understand the criticism if we went through a long, poor spell with our first XI(or something close to it), but this is clearly not the case. It's quite simple based on the current facts:

- Solskjær + a decent team = a lot of points.
- We're exceptionally vulnerable to injuries for two reasons: 1) first XI is only good-ish. It only takes one key injury to make lots of damage. 2) Our bench, up until now, has been very poor.
- In order to improve our results or make sure that we don't lose ground, we need to sign more players. And they have to be quality, obviously.

I don't think Solskjær can do much about injuries or the transfer budget/dealings. Hence: Solskjær is not the problem. Sure, it would be nice to have a coach who is a master of making shit players look great, but long-term it doesn't solve anything(unless the coach literally is a Fergie clone). We need to have good players. It's easily the most important aspect. The players you have at your disposal probably accounts for 70-80% of the outcome.

We're stuck in a loop, honestly. If we do find a coach that manages to do OK with very little, then Woody will conclude that nothing needs to be done. This will stop us from becoming a true force. But if the coach is unable to do this, then Woody will step on the break pedal and doom whoever is in charge. It happened with LVG, it happened with Mourinho, and it's very likely that it will happen to Ole.

Top analysis.

 

[Withnail]

Do you think almost 2 years in the jury should still be out?

What I mean is that there are a lot of opinions, conjecture and mitigating factors due to the unprecedented nature of the covid situation and little definitive proof one way or the other.

The jury will be out until he proves to be a success or a failure.

 

[sammsky1]

I haven't read all the posts, but I doubt that anyone has claimed anything remotely close to that. Ole has generally done very well when he's had a decent team to field. In 2019, if we exclude the games where we had neither Pogba nor Bruno(20 games), then we averaged 2.1 points per game. That is really good for a team that according to anyone who knows football is nowhere close to winning the league.
So far there is much evidence that Solskjær is a good coach when his team is decent, and more or less no evidence of the contrary apart from the last 4 games. The only thing you could fault Solskjær for is his results when key players are missing. But looking at our bench and looking at the sort of football Solskjær wants to play, there is no wonder that we struggle when injuries strike. I don't think any coach in this world would be able to do much with Lingard or Pereira as the link between midfield and attack. Not unless the rest of the team is world class or bordering to it.
I could understand the criticism if we went through a long, poor spell with our first XI(or something close to it), but this is clearly not the case. It's quite simple based on the current facts:

- Solskjær + a decent team = a lot of points.
- We're exceptionally vulnerable to injuries for two reasons: 1) first XI is only good-ish. It only takes one key injury to make lots of damage. 2) Our bench, up until now, has been very poor.
- In order to improve our results or make sure that we don't lose ground, we need to sign more players. And they have to be quality, obviously.

I don't think Solskjær can do much about injuries or the transfer budget/dealings. Hence: Solskjær is not the problem. Sure, it would be nice to have a coach who is a master of making shit players look great, but long-term it doesn't solve anything(unless the coach literally is a Fergie clone). We need to have good players. It's easily the most important aspect. The players you have at your disposal probably accounts for 70-80% of the outcome.

We're stuck in a loop, honestly. If we do find a coach that manages to do OK with very little, then Woody will conclude that nothing needs to be done. This will stop us from becoming a true force. But if the coach is unable to do this, then Woody will step on the break pedal and doom whoever is in charge. It happened with LVG, it happened with Mourinho, and it's very likely that it will happen to Ole.

OleOUTers want Poch or Nagelsmann and if they get the job, guess what, at best they will finish .... 3rd.
I wonder if these folks will then continue with the same bile against the manager they want appointed?

 

[OleBoiii]

OleOUTers want Poch or Nagelsmann and if they get the job, guess what, at best they will finish .... 3rd.
I wonder if these folks will then continue with the same bile against the manager they want appointed?

The majority will act as if they never wanted either and immediately find a new shiny toy that will be the solution to all our problems.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

The majority will act as if they never wanted either and immediately find a new shiny toy that will be the solution to all our problems.

What's the solution to all our problems if Ed and Glazers are not going anywhere

 

[Karlos PFC]

The majority will act as if they never wanted either and immediately find a new shiny toy that will be the solution to all our problems.

Yeah cause Manchester United owes to have a top coach, if that's Poch or Naggelsman or someone else doesn't matter. For one thing Ole is not, so the sooner we find that guy the better.

 

[OleBoiii]

What's the solution to all our problems if Ed and Glazers are not going anywhere

If a massive boycott or a coup d'etat( ) is out of the question, then yeah, changing the manager is technically the only solution, as there is a 0.1% chance we find a magician capable of dealing with this shite. 0.1% is obviously better than 0.

Solskjær hasn't failed yet, though. Far from it.

 

[el3mel]

If the next manager underperforms and didn't do much more than top 4 he will get sacked too. That's the life in any big club. I look around and there's hardly any club who is that patient with their managers anyway. Carlo won CL with Madrid, next year he won nothing and he's sacked. Chelsea change managers each 2 years or so. It happen.

If Poch underperforms after Ole, sack him too.

 

[rotherham_red]

If the next manager underperforms and didn't do much more than top 4 he will get sacked too. That's the life in any big club. I look around and there's hardly any club who is that patient with their managers anyway. Carlo won CL with Madrid, next year he won nothing and he's sacked. Chelsea change managers each 2 years or so. It happen.

If Poch underperforms after Ole, sack him too.

Those two clubs have a sporting structure designed towards success on the pitch, where the manager is just one cog among many. We don't have that structure, and likely never will while Woodward is here.

That is why we have to be patient with managers, because we can't afford not to. Sacking every other year will just ensure we are at best in the same position as we are now. Unless it goes horribly wrong and we're lower table in March, the least Ole deserves is the time to set things back on course after getting 3rd with the worst Utd squad in the PL era.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Those two clubs have a sporting structure designed towards success on the pitch, where the manager is just one cog among many. We don't have that structure, and likely never will while Woodward is here.

That is why we have to be patient with managers, because we can't afford not to. Sacking every other year will just ensure we are at best in the same position as we are now. Unless it goes horribly wrong and we're lower table in March, the least Ole deserves is the time to set things back on course after getting 3rd with the worst Utd squad in the PL era.

We don't need to be patient with an underperforming manager. We sack him and get a better one that suits the players we have. That's the way to go given we don't have a DoF. It's not rocket science but Ed makes it look so difficult

 

[James Peril]

Those two clubs have a sporting structure designed towards success on the pitch, where the manager is just one cog among many. We don't have that structure, and likely never will while Woodward is here.

That is why we have to be patient with managers, because we can't afford not to. Sacking every other year will just ensure we are at best in the same position as we are now. Unless it goes horribly wrong and we're lower table in March, the least Ole deserves is the time to set things back on course after getting 3rd with the worst Utd squad in the PL era.

But your big moral point doesn’t make any sense. Why be patient with a manager if the results are missing? You are basically saying all managers have the same competence, that the player pool is at the same level over time even with changes to the squad - which again makes no sense at all. Worst squad in the PL era? Also not true, Sir Alex won the league with a worse squad. Ole literally acquired players last summer, during January and this summer - he has been backed and he has spent heavily on his players for his team. Surely isn’t a perfect team on paper, but we are playing way below our general on average, we are weaker than the sum of each part so to speak.

 

[Glideman]

I don’t know if it’s been said but we are like 3 games into the prem season. A LOT can happen in 35 games.
Also last season the goal was top 4 and he came 3rd and 3 semi finals. Bad start or not he hasn’t yet got the right to be sacked just yet.

 

[rotherham_red]

But your big moral point doesn’t make any sense. Why be patient with a manager if the results are missing? You are basically saying all managers have the same competence, that the player pool is at the same level over time even with changes to the squad - which again makes no sense at all. Worst squad in the PL era? Also not true, Sir Alex won the league with a worse squad. Ole literally acquired players last summer, during January and this summer - he has been backed and he has spent heavily on his players for his team. Surely isn’t a perfect team on paper, but we are playing way below our general on average, we are weaker than the sum of each part so to speak.

It's been 3 games and we are 1 point behind City and 6 behind Liverpool with a game in hand. It's not like it's terminal.

And where have I said any of what you just inferred? Those teams have that sporting structure in place where the manager's input is minimal at best and his brief is to make do with the players he's given.

See where we're at around Christmas, and take stock. But the hysterics right now, are just not needed. Spurs was a very bad day, but we've had bad days before. The onus is on us to improve upon it and make it a distant memory.

 

[el3mel]

I don’t know if it’s been said but we are like 3 games into the prem season. A LOT can happen in 35 games.
Also last season the goal was top 4 and he came 3rd and 3 semi finals. Bad start or not he hasn’t yet got the right to be sacked just yet.

3 semi finals aren't an achievement.

I'm pretty sure we'll hit a patch of good results at one point and confident the quality of players will help us finish top 4 at the end. This isn't worrying for me.

But the fact is I can't see him bringing him us anywhere more than top 4 and a lucky domestic cup win here and there. What's next ? At one point these requirements stop being good enough for Manchester United manager ?

 

[Offsideagain]

If the next manager underperforms and didn't do much more than top 4 he will get sacked too. That's the life in any big club. I look around and there's hardly any club who is that patient with their managers anyway. Carlo won CL with Madrid, next year he won nothing and he's sacked. Chelsea change managers each 2 years or so. It happen.

If Poch underperforms after Ole, sack him too.

Klopp has just completed 5 years at Liverpool, Guardiola 4 years at City. That may just say something.

 

[Greck]

Don't see what aspect of management Ole is actually great at to make me feel he'll one day be able to overthrow the newschool crop of coaches/managers over the course of a season. He isn't a tactical coaching/philosophy genius, his gametime adjustments are so bad he might as well just pick the team and be going home from there.

The one hope is he's somehow a squadbuilding genius and I don't see that either especially with some of the reported fifa manager transfer targets he requests and the ones like Maguire he has so far sanctioned.

If his plan to win is to buy superior talent in every position then we might as well extend that strategy to the manager position. We don't need the manager to be the weakest link in the team

 

[BR7]

Ouch

 

[el3mel]

Klopp has just completed 5 years at Liverpool, Guardiola 4 years at City. That may just say something.

Yeah because they're performing well, won major trophies and pretty much the best 2 managers in the world. Post talk about underperforming.

The same City sacked Pellegrini after 3 years in charge just because Pep was available, even though he wasn't doing bad at all but they thought it's time to go the next level and not get attached to the manager way too much.

 

[ghagua]

We don't need to be patient with an underperforming manager. We sack him and get a better one that suits the players we have. That's the way to go given we don't have a DoF. It's not rocket science but Ed makes it look so difficult

Exactly!

 

[ghagua]

Don't see what aspect of management Ole is actually great at to make me feel he'll one day be able to overthrow the newschool crop of coaches/managers over the course of a season. He isn't a tactical coaching/philosophy genius, his gametime adjustments are so bad he might as well just pick the team and be going home from there.

The one hope is he's somehow a squadbuilding genius and I don't see that either especially with some of the reported fifa manager transfer targets he requests and the ones like Maguire he has so far sanctioned.

If his plan to win is to buy superior talent in every position then we might as well extend that strategy to the manager position. We don't need the manager to be the weakest link in the team

Well, he is good at quoting the good old times under Fergie.

 

[ghagua]

Yeah because they're performing well, won major trophies and pretty much the best 2 managers in the world. Post talk about underperforming.

The same City sacked Pellegrini after 3 years in charge just because Pep was available, even though he wasn't doing bad at all but they thought it's time to go the next level and not get attached to the manager way too much.

Might as well kept LvG to keep the ideologists happy. At least he had a plan, even though it used to frustrate the hell out of me, and he had a successful track record as well prior to joining United. For me, a year clearly shows you the path the team will be going in style-wise under a manager. Success will take longer, but you want to see the imprint of a manager on a team after a year.

I have seen managers like Pep, Klopp, Poc, and others clearly have a way of playing, not sure what I'm watching with United under Ole. Yes, he has freed the players from the restraint under LvG and Maureen, but there is no clear indication of the way the team wants to play. Some of our players move slowly as molasses. No movement to get free of their markers, just standing around waiting for something to happen. They are getting outfought everywhere on the pitch.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah cause Manchester United owes to have a top coach, if that's Poch or Naggelsman or someone else doesn't matter. For one thing Ole is not, so the sooner we find that guy the better.

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

 

[FatherWolff]

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

Doesn't matter then! As long as the Coaching has pedigree. That way we can know if they are good or not. Not like now when we can make things up. And if we have predictable play.. I mean patterns of play. Then we know we can reach the top. Or can we?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

Then we look at context. Could the team perform more than third? Are the performances on the pitch good? Etc

 

[Karlos PFC]

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

Well then we're gonna have to evaluate the "progress" and the "learning curve" aren't we?

 

[Mainoldo]

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

If they fail they get sacked. What's the problem...

 

[Glideman]

If they fail they get sacked. What's the problem...

You can’t sack every manager if they don’t win the league every season wtf

 

[Mainoldo]

You can’t sack every manager if they don’t win the league every season wtf

Of course not. But you can’t just expect managers to be appoint and stay until they retire because SAF did.

All of our managers deserved the sack and if the new manager deserves the sack. Sack him. Some fools actually believe we want Pochettino because we like how he looks or something. I like him the same way I like players. To improve the team.

 

[VP]

I hate our owners.

And yes changing our owners is the biggest priority but don't folks realise that the first thing any competent management team would do would be to sack the coach?!

 

[Isotope]

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

It is actually easy to differ a good or average manager. You see the players he has, and whether he can make his team perform above individual qualities.

So what do you think of Ole and United? And he's been managing United long enough to "coach" them.

 

[soapythecat]

And when Poch and Nagelsmann come 3rd, what then? This is the question.

I think that depends on the nature of the 3rd place:
66 points after some very fortunate results due to penalties and other teams throwing it away. A season saved due to the club having to spend big in January to bail an inept manager out.
Or,
3 points behind 1st and 2nd after playing some really good attacking football. A team with a clear plan and style of play.

I think I know what I’d rather.

 

[Withnail]

I think that depends on the nature of the 3rd place:
66 points after some very fortunate results due to penalties and other teams throwing it away. A season saved due to the club having to spend big in January to bail an inept manager out.
Or,
3 points behind 1st and 2nd after playing some really good attacking football. A team with a clear plan and style of play.

I think I know what I’d rather.

Yes we'd all rather we lived in a fantasy land where we were in a title race

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We need a coach that can manage with an iron fist and motivate these players on a consistent basis like what Bielsa has done to Leeds. We don't play with urgency at all. The players sometimes play like they need a kick up the ass to wake up and it only seems to happen when they score us or when we play against big teams or when everybody has written us off. I think this is a huge reason why we can range from playing so well to piss poor. The players always need a certain stimuli to be motivated. I wouldn't be surprised if we smashed Newcastle

 

[soapythecat]

Yes we'd all rather we lived in a fantasy land where we were in a title race

I absolutely believe that our squad last season was much better than 66 points. Maybe a better manager might get us closer. Just because Ole didn’t do it, doesn’t make it impossible.