Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Jaqen H'ghar]

For Mourinho, results went south because the style wasn't good enough for consistent results without extreme player motivation. And once the motivation dropped due to his antics, there was nothing underneath to sustain us on the pitch. We already saw signs of that in his 2nd season with De Gea's heroics masking the underlying poor metrics.

That's the worry for Ole. I saw a stat saying that we have only scored one non penalty goal at home in the PL which is pretty bad. And it's been a consistent theme, needing a penalty to open up the game against more organized opponents. The performances need to be such that even after a loss or draw, we can say that we created enough to score a couple of goals (barring anomalies of course).

Mourinho, rightly or wrongly, didn't get the players that suited his system, and there is a long list of reasons (many of them outside his control) why he lost the dressing room. I believe if he got what he wanted or if he wasn't so confrontational with the board and players he would have achieved a major trophy, but it is what it is, and he had to go when he did.

With Ole I agree that we struggle against teams that sit back as our RW doesn't offer much (when Mason Greenwood has a good game it seems to transform the team, but he's still inconsistent). Some of our midfielders are also susceptible to pressing. PL teams have figured this out, and play us accordingly. The penalties we get are largely a consequence of this, playing against packed defenses not just blind luck. Usually Martial is good in tight spaces, but he's not been in form lately. We could use a RW who is consistent and can play against those kind of defenses.

 

[He'sRaldo]

With Ole I agree that we struggle against teams that sit back as our RW doesn't offer much (when Mason Greenwood has a good game it seems to transform the team, but he's still inconsistent). Some of our midfielders are also susceptible to pressing. PL teams have figured this out, and play us accordingly. The penalties we get are largely a consequence of this, playing against packed defenses not just blind luck. Usually Martial is good in tight spaces, but he's not been in form lately. We could use a RW who is consistent and can play against those kind of defenses.

True, these are things Ole needs to figure out. Some have been his own doing (like buying AWB who is pretty bad at attacking, meaning our RW lacks potency) and some not, but these concerns are ultimately his responsibility; he's not separate from them.

As for the RW, I really wonder where Greenwood is. He was flying last season, and started this season well enough for a youngster; but now all of a sudden we're having to endure Mata on the wing again like it's 2015.

 

[AshRK]

True, these are things Ole needs to figure out. Some have been his own doing (like buying AWB who is pretty bad at attacking, meaning our RW lacks potency) and some not, but these concerns are ultimately his responsibility; he's not separate from them.

As for the RW, I really wonder where Greenwood is. He was flying last season, and started this season well enough for a youngster; but now all of a sudden we're having to endure Mata on the wing again like it's 2015.

And that is why Ole rightly asked for a RW and/or Grealish. I know we all talk in hypothesis but had we signed even one of sancho or Grealish we would be in a better position.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

True, these are things Ole needs to figure out. Some have been his own doing (like buying AWB who is pretty bad at attacking, meaning our RW lacks potency) and some not, but these concerns are ultimately his responsibility; he's not separate from them.

As for the RW, I really wonder where Greenwood is. He was flying last season, and started this season well enough for a youngster; but now all of a sudden we're having to endure Mata on the wing again like it's 2015.

Yeah, we're still a work in progress. To be fair to Ole, it seems the board promised him Sancho (and true to form) failed to deliver.

 

[He'sRaldo]

And that is why Ole rightly asked for a RW and/or Grealish. I know we all talk in hypothesis but had we signed even one of sancho or Grealish we would be in a better position.

That's one of my gripes with Ole, his problem solving.

Lasts season when we didn't get a decent AM we were midtable for months, until we had to splash out on Bruno in January. Buying players is great but it's not all there is to being manager, and part of being manager is being able to solve problems such as not being able to immediately get a target.

If without Sancho or Grealish we're going to languish in midtable for months again, then I'd say it's best to look for a manager that can work without the most ideal of conditions.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Yeah, we're still a work in progress. To be fair to Ole, it seems the board promised him Sancho (and true to form) failed to deliver.

Yeah, although I'd hope we had a contingency plan in case a 100m+ transfer didn't work out.

I assumed Greenwood was the contingency, but Ole's left him out so far and played Mata et al. So I don't really know.

 

[Flexdegea]

Yeah, although I'd hope we had a contingency plan in case a 100m+ transfer didn't work out.

I assumed Greenwood was the contingency, but Ole's left him out so far and played Mata et al. So I don't really know.

Have you been under rock since start of season?


I didnt think it was obvs to why greenwood bee in and out this last while. It's not because the manager see mata as a better fit.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Have you been under rock since start of season?


I didnt think it was obvs to why greenwood bee in and out this last while. It's not because the manager see mata as a better fit.

What's the reason, I genuinely don't know. At first I thought Iceland, but it's too far back, and even after then he made a few cameos.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yeah, although I'd hope we had a contingency plan in case a 100m+ transfer didn't work out.

I assumed Greenwood was the contingency, but Ole's left him out so far and played Mata et al. So I don't really know.

Not because he thinks Mason is rubbish though. Other reasons.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

That's one of my gripes with Ole, his problem solving.

Lasts season when we didn't get a decent AM we were midtable for months, until we had to splash out on Bruno in January. Buying players is great but it's not all there is to being manager, and part of being manager is being able to solve problems such as not being able to immediately get a target.

If without Sancho or Grealish we're going to languish in midtable for months again, then I'd say it's best to look for a manager that can work without the most ideal of conditions.

Which is why I don't see us ever winning the league with Ole. If we have the 3rd best team in the league we will be 3rd or less. His limit is relative to the current quality of the squad he is currently working with. Not necessarily a bad thing but what it means is that is that if were to win the league under him we'd have to have the best squad in the league. That's not going to happen under this board

 

[Gabagoo]

And that is why Ole rightly asked for a RW and/or Grealish. I know we all talk in hypothesis but had we signed even one of sancho or Grealish we would be in a better position.

Why didn't Ole get Woodward to pull out of the Sancho deal and get in someone cheaper? There are many, many players better than James and Mata. We could have got a couple of wingers for a combined total of less than £100m.

Ole is definitely partially to blame for once again having no right wing.

 

[Flexdegea]

What's the reason, I genuinely don't know. At first I thought Iceland, but it's too far back, and even after then he made a few cameos.

The media been getting stuck into him with unfounded stories, plus one of his best friend killed himself so I'm anything the manager pulled him out of the firing line.


Looks like he is back now and will start games again

 

[tomaldinho1]

Fair enough, all though I do disagree. Stats are a way to back an opinion, and when presented they strengthen the point a poster is making. We may agree or disagree on what a stat suggests, but it's better than the "I feel that ... " or the "I don't feel that ... " that this thread is full of.

I love stats and when they are used correctly they are much better than the random opinions of most fans. I am only talking about the cross season stuff I keep seeing because form from a previous season is irrelevant. I get how points totals or GA vs GF can be compared if there is only a season gap or so but realistically form is only really relevant to each season and, even then, football is always living in the present.

I've seen it from both sides - we've had relegation form between x & y date but been the best in the league at other times. What matters is this season, the next game and looking forwards. There's no agenda if someone simply states we have been poor in the league so far but that can, and hopefully will, change.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Which is why I don't see us ever winning the league with Ole. If we have the 3rd best team in the league we will be 3rd or less. His limit is relative to the current quality of the squad he is currently working with. Not necessarily a bad thing but what it means is that is that if were to win the league under him we'd have to have the best squad in the league. That's not going to happen under this board

What’s your basis that different manager would be able to win the league with the last season squad that finished 3rd in the league aka ‘’3rd best team/squad in the league’?

I think you underestimated the problems that Mourinho brought in to this squad. The more damage, the higher the cost (time & money) to fix it.

I’m sure if Ole at least got one player to upgrade his XI either Grealish or Sancho, we will be in higher than where we are right now which could put us closer to where the 3rd, 2nd & 1st Chelsea, Liverpool & Spurs and people will start talking about challenging. If he got two players to upgrade his XI, we will be in higher position as well.

It sounds like hypocritical but it’s not rocket science because we need to improve our XI so it makes sense in order to put us into title contender we need to improve the XI. Cavani & VDB weren’t his first choice but more of squad depth upgrade means it will take time to integrate them into our XI & manager’s system (that’s if they are good enough).

 

[VP89]

Bruno I guess.

Makes some sense but always silly trying to break down parts of seasons like this.
The end part of last season was very good and promising.
The start to this season so far has been a huge step back in terms of league performances and in terms of points, not good enough.
Next few games are crucial.

Pretty much. But you have very odd posters thay only want to count our games since January because it fits a narrative.

I agree the next few games are extremely crucial.

 

[FatherWolff]

Pretty much. But you have very odd posters thay only want to count our games since January because it fits a narrative.

I agree the next few games are extremely crucial.

It fits the narrative we came out of injuries and shit form, getting a player important to a rebuild process. Suddenly, replacing Pereira with Bruno made a difference. Shock horror.
No, they are not crucial. Important, yes. But only crucial for the doom and gloom. No one is running away yet. When someone do, then it is crucial. Sounds to me you like to create you own narratives here.

 

[blemis]

People keep on bringing Jose and asking why fans didn't back him even after finishing 2nd. Well let me tell you why. Peolle didn't not hate or turn on Jose for finishing 2nd but because of his mannerism after sevilla defeat. It was all sour. And most predicted in summer Jose will explode and we will waste the whole season amd that's what's happened. Imagine ole after losing 6-1 turning on martial, I bet many ole neutrals and inners would have turned on Ole. Result wise Jose was fine but his mannerism and his boring football made fans done with him.

Jose didn't suit United simply because he got higher ambition and better football knowledge than most of people, he realize United is finished ,won't get back on top level for long time and decide to threw it away to pursue another job where he can be more respected and can execute his plan. He keeps saying that his 2nd finished position was one of the best job he has done in football because people don't know what happen behind the scenes, which implied he didn't think it would be that bad at United. So far he was proven to be right though, you guys are trophyless since he left , doesn't look like winning anything anytime soon and the new manager with all his positivity or good football haven't even surpass what he achieve there.

 

[VP89]

It fits the narrative we came out of injuries and shit form, getting a player important to a rebuild process. Suddenly, replacing Pereira with Bruno made a difference. Shock horror.
No, they are not crucial. Important, yes. But only crucial for the doom and gloom. No one is running away yet. When someone do, then it is crucial. Sounds to me you like to create you own narratives here.

Ive addressed the injuries and squad tripe already in previous quotes, showing many game examples where we played shit and had a good team out (which featured combinations of martial/Pogba/Rashford).

I evaluate Ole from his time here, you cherry pick to evaluate him from January. There's only one narrative here. Especially when you lazily use an injury excuse on top - go back and look at Palace last season, Everton, Villa, Sheffield Utd or either Southampton fixtures. Then try and claim we had poorer XIs or injuries to explain bad bad performances.

Even aspects less related to technical ability but work ethic, press, etc. It was inconsistent. So yeah, I'm happy to praise Ole since Jan but I evaluate him since he's come. I don't cherry pick because there's no narrative here.

Again it's like me saying "let's judge Jose by 2/3rds of his second season" and ignore everything around that.

 

[AshRK]

That's one of my gripes with Ole, his problem solving.

Lasts season when we didn't get a decent AM we were midtable for months, until we had to splash out on Bruno in January. Buying players is great but it's not all there is to being manager, and part of being manager is being able to solve problems such as not being able to immediately get a target.

If without Sancho or Grealish we're going to languish in midtable for months again, then I'd say it's best to look for a manager that can work without the most ideal of conditions.

But that's true with almost every top manager. It's like saying my gripe with pep is without those millions spent he wouldn't have taken city to another level, which is true. He gor to spent 150m in his first season won feck all and finished 3rd. Without another 150m spent he probably wouldn't have won the title in his second season.

Similarly Klopp without VVD and Allison's addition never managed to fix the defense. So you must have gripe with klopp too.

Yes you don't need sancho to beat Palace but that's not the point. The point is you need players to strengthen your squad and closen the gaps with rivals. Every manager does that and will continue doing that.

 

[Bilbo]

We arent always going to win matches against teams that we are better than on paper. It doesnt work like that

 

[Mainoldo]

We arent always going to win matches against teams that we are better than on paper. It doesnt work like that

That’s mad. So why evaluate a team at all. We could have kept David Moyes on that logic.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

What’s your basis that different manager would be able to win the league with the last season squad that finished 3rd in the league aka ‘’3rd best team/squad in the league’?

I think you underestimated the problems that Mourinho brought in to this squad. The more damage, the higher the cost (time & money) to fix it.

I’m sure if Ole at least got one player to upgrade his XI either Grealish or Sancho, we will be in higher than where we are right now which could put us closer to where the 3rd, 2nd & 1st Chelsea, Liverpool & Spurs and people will start talking about challenging. If he got two players to upgrade his XI, we will be in higher position as well.

It sounds like hypocritical but it’s not rocket science because we need to improve our XI so it makes sense in order to put us into title contender we need to improve the XI. Cavani & VDB weren’t his first choice but more of squad depth upgrade means it will take time to integrate them into our XI & manager’s system (that’s if they are good enough).

This is my point. We are going to keep having this conversation every season. "If Ole got this player we would be closer to this team". We have an incompetent board. We always take one step while the likes of Chelsea City and Pool take two . It always happens. Last season we finished on the same points with Chelsea and look at the difference in how both teams handled it. Liverpool also had a team ahead of us by a distance last season and they went on to improve that team. City also have a stronger team than us and have the money and willingness to spend to keep improving.

Maybe you think in a few years we can assemble a squad better than the 19 other teams under Woodward and Glazers. Or that Ole can win the league once he has fixed the holes in the squad. But personally I don't. I think if Ole were to win the league it will be because he has been provided a team superior to the other 19 and I don't think that's going to happen under our current management.

 

[Bilbo]

That’s mad. So why evaluate a team at all. We could have kept David Moyes on that logic.

Im trying to make a point. Its not a complete story. Yes we've lost games we should have won. We've also beaten teams that are better than us, or on our level. It doesnt prove anything

 

[Di Maria's angel]

We arent always going to win matches against teams that we are better than on paper. It doesnt work like that

Thats a great excuse to be fair.

 

[Bilbo]

This is my point. We are going to keep having this conversation every season. "If Ole got this player we would be closer to this team". We have an incompetent board. We always take one step while the likes of Chelsea City and Pool take two . It always happens. Last season we finished on the same points with Chelsea and look at the difference in how both teams handled it. Liverpool also had a team ahead of us by a distance last season and they went on to improve that team. City also have a stronger team than us and have the money and willingness to spend to keep improving.

Maybe you think in a few years we can assemble a squad better than the 19 other teams under Woodward and Glazers. Or that Ole can win the league once he has fixed the holes in the squad. But personally I don't. I think if Ole were to win the league it will be because he has been provided a team superior to the other 19 and I don't think that's going to happen under our current management.

So what you want is a manager that can over achieve? Win a league with an inferior team. A genius, basically. Cups can be won by underdogs, but leagues rarely are. The best team wins the league.

 

[anant]

Thats a great excuse to be fair.

Guess every manager ever has been a shit manager then.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Im trying to make a point. Its not a complete story. Yes we've lost games we should have won. We've also beaten teams that are better than us, or on our level. It doesnt prove anything

United lose 2-0 to Burnley

Caf member in Ole's defense: Doesn't prove anything. We've won Psg

 

[FatherWolff]

Ive addressed the injuries and squad tripe already in previous quotes, showing many game examples where we played shit and had a good team out (which featured combinations of martial/Pogba/Rashford).

I evaluate Ole from his time here, you cherry pick to evaluate him from January. There's only one narrative here. Especially when you lazily use an injury excuse on top - go back and look at Palace last season, Everton, Villa, Sheffield Utd or either Southampton fixtures. Then try and claim we had poorer XIs or injuries to explain bad bad performances.

Even aspects less related to technical ability but work ethic, press, etc. It was inconsistent. So yeah, I'm happy to praise Ole since Jan but I evaluate him since he's come. I don't cherry pick because there's no narrative here.

Again it's like me saying "let's judge Jose by 2/3rds of his second season" and ignore everything around that.

Why do posters like yourself always think of excuses? Sometimes things actually happen for a reason. There might be a million reasons as to why, and we can only judge what is happening on the pitch. Not the pieces behind it.
I have no interest on evaluating Ole now, and i know first hand how inconsistent performance go with both age and building new relationships. From my perspective we are moving forward, as our high is higher than in a long time. It’s only natural with the lows. Everyone knows we need to be more consistent and working on it. If we are to far of in January, then maybe it’s time. Or else we do so after a season.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

This is my point. We are going to keep having this conversation every season. "If Ole got this player we would be closer to this team". We have an incompetent board. We always take one step while the likes of Chelsea City and Pool take two . It always happens. Last season we finished on the same points with Chelsea and look at the difference in how both teams handled it. Liverpool also had a team ahead of us by a distance last season and they went on to improve that team. City also have a stronger team than us and have the money and willingness to spend to keep improving.

Maybe you think in a few years we can assemble a squad better than the 19 other teams under Woodward and Glazers. Or that Ole can win the league once he has fixed the holes in the squad. But personally I don't. I think if Ole were to win the league it will be because he has been provided a team superior to the other 19 and I don't think that's going to happen under our current management.

So basically there is no manager can do it then?

 

[sleme]

The problem I have with the staunch Ole-in crowd is they just look at Ole's 'achivements' in a bubble and that's why they don't seem to grasp the criticism.

Yes, Ole has improved the team but that's only a portion of the goal. What we really need to do, is improve more than the other teams around us and be in a position to eventually catch Liverpool. I don't believe Ole has the ability to do this which is why I want a new manager at the end of the season. I think Ole if given time will continue to do a decent job but decent isn't quite good enough.

Criticism is part of being a manager and when you deliver consistent results it goes away. Towards the end of last season Jose and Lampard faced the same negativity from sections of their fans. This season, both managers have sorted out their main weaknesses and find themselves where they want to be both in Europe and in the PL. Their fans are happy right now and have a more positive outlook on the future of their team.

The problem I have with the staunch Ole-in crowd is they just look at Ole's 'achivements' in a bubble and that's why they don't seem to grasp the criticism.

Yes, Ole has improved the team but that's only a portion of the goal. What we really need to do, is improve more than the other teams around us and be in a position to eventually catch Liverpool. I don't believe Ole has the ability to do this which is why I want a new manager at the end of the season. I think Ole if given time will continue to do a decent job but decent isn't quite good enough.

Criticism is part of being a manager and when you deliver consistent results it goes away. Towards the end of last season Jose and Lampard faced the same negativity from sections of their fans. This season, both managers have sorted out their main weaknesses and find themselves where they want to be both in Europe and in the PL. Their fans are happy right now and have a more positive outlook on the future of their team.

I agree that we need to improve more than other teams in order to eventually catch Liverpool. Some facts: Ole's first 38 Premier league games, 65 points, forth place, 36 points behind Liverpool, 24 behind City and 4 behind Leicester. First full season:66 points, third, 33 points behind Liverpool, 15 points behind City. Last 38 Premier League games (Through round 8) 70 points, Third, 22 points behind Liverpool, 7 points behind City. We are heading in the right direction. Maybe not as fast as one would like, but still..

 

[Mainoldo]

Im trying to make a point. Its not a complete story. Yes we've lost games we should have won. We've also beaten teams that are better than us, or on our level. It doesnt prove anything

I think a lot of us just don’t realise how good and held back we are. There isn’t a team we have beat that are better than us.

 

[eire-red]

What's so frustrating this season is that the league is so open. If we could just put together a run of form similar to what we did from February to July, we could be in with a real chance, or at least up there.

That's why I feel Ole just isn't the one to take us forward. Granted, we'll give him Crystal Palace and Spurs as we were clearly off the pace in terms of fitness. But I've just been waiting for us to grab this season by the scruff of the neck and really kick on from last season, but we haven't progressed at all it seems.

That's what's so disappointing for me, and it will be a disastrous season if we don't make top 4, when we should really be cementing that 3rd spot and looking to push on.

 

[VP89]

Why do posters like yourself always think of excuses?

What excuse have I made? I'm literally saying evaluate him since he joined rather than cherry picking a time that looks good.

Sometimes things actually happen for a reason. There might be a million reasons as to why, and we can only judge what is happening on the pitch. Not the pieces behind it.

Jesus this argument can be probably be used to vindicate Moyes if we just buy into this logic.

You do know I've based my concern on what the dressing room has been reported to believe too right? Unless you want to then argue that Athletic has no credible sources at the club.

I have no interest on evaluating Ole now, and i know first hand how inconsistent performance go with both age and building new relationships. From my perspective we are moving forward, as our high is higher than in a long time. It’s only natural with the lows. Everyone knows we need to be more consistent and working on it. If we are to far of in January, then maybe it’s time. Or else we do so after a season.

The bold bit is either bizarre or bullshit. Bizarre if you don't want to evaluate managers 2 years into their tenure, and half way into their contract. Or bullshit because you posted me suggesting it's fine to evaluate him since January.

 

[Bilbo]

United lose 2-0 to Burnley

Caf member in Ole's defense: Doesn't prove anything. We've won Psg

Every team loses against teams that they should beat. Is this really a point to argue against?

 

[Bilbo]

What's so frustrating this season is that the league is so open

Rather than feeling frustration about that, we should take it as a reason to be hopeful. Its allowed us to get away with having no pre-season.

 

[VP89]

Im trying to make a point. Its not a complete story. Yes we've lost games we should have won. We've also beaten teams that are better than us, or on our level. It doesnt prove anything

You're talking about incomplete stories and yet you seem to back evaluating Ole from an arbitrary starting point that ignores half a season of terrible form. I don't get it.

Yeah we've been on very strong form since January that's not really a debate. I'm loving that. But why do posters want to ignore the first half? It's just odd. Judge him from the outset and if you think as a team we are neither here nor there after 250ish million spent and 2 years in, you might understand why some of us are concerened.

 

[AshRK]

I think a lot of us just don’t realise how good and held back we are. There isn’t a team we have beat that are better than us.

So now psg and Leipzig are not better than us.

 

[Leftback99]

You're talking about incomplete stories and yet you seem to back evaluating Ole from an arbitrary starting point that ignores half a season of terrible form. I don't get it.

Yeah we've been on very strong form since January that's not really a debate. I'm loving that. But why do posters want to ignore the first half? It's just odd. Judge him from the outset and if you think as a team we are neither here nor there after 250ish million spent and 2 years in, you might understand why some of us are concerened.

It's pretty simple, comparing the team with Bruno and others is more relevant than when we were giving significant minutes to the likes of Lingard and Pereira. We should expect better results now than we could before.

 

[RedSky]

You're talking about incomplete stories and yet you seem to back evaluating Ole from an arbitrary starting point that ignores half a season of terrible form. I don't get it.

Yeah we've been on very strong form since January that's not really a debate. I'm loving that. But why do posters want to ignore the first half? It's just odd. Judge him from the outside and if you think as a team we are neither here nor there after 250ish million spent and 2 years in, you might understand why some of us are concerened.

Nobody is ignoring it, I just think there is a perfectly acceptable reason to explain our poor form before that is all. New defense strugglnig to find form together and a forward line absent of any creative intelligence. Throw in Rashford and Martial picking up injuries and missing some games resulted in us being very easy to defend against and very easy to upset our new defense.

If you look at the data back in the first half of that season, whenever Rashford and Martial played together we would score significantly more goals when one was absent. The Pogba injury crippled our forward line as we had to rely on Pereira/Lingard and Mata for our creativity and none of those players were capable. I mean are we even surprised we struggled back then? We all know about Lingards decline, we all know that Pereira whiffed hard at Valencia when on loan and Mata bless him doesn't have the legs to be our creative hub long term.

Our squad quality was poor and still is in some areas tbh. Now you can blame Ole if you like for this, ultimately it's his choice on which parts of the squad we spend our money. But we've wasted so much money under our previous managers and we were left with an abysmal squad. No matter who took over they were working with a very small select group of players who have the quality to be United players and the rest were deadwood needing moving on. Some are so fecking terrible that we still have them because no club wants to fork out money for the shite.

It's pretty remarkable really looking back at just how poor our squad was when Jose left. Abysmal, and that isn't on Jose either, granted his signings on the whole were poor but this started back under LvG who fecked up hard with his signings.

 

[VP89]

It's pretty simple, comparing the team with Bruno and others more relevant than when we were giving significant minutes to the likes of Lingard and Pereira. We should expect better results now than we could before.

No, it's not that simple. There are many games prior to Brunos arrival that we lost not because of a single player or two. I'm sick and tired of the scapegoating here, you take the West Ham performance, or Everton, Southampton, Villa, etc. Which all had Rashford and Martial and a strong side. There is zero press, there is no proper system, its lacking aggression and generally lost football. That does not just come down to 2 players. It's an absolute cop out argument by posters who are literally blinded by their love for the manager.

Then of course we hit brilliant stride and Bruno was a big factor in that. But what I'm saying is you don't just ignore the first half because we hit good form when we signed a player. If anything that points to even more concern, the stats show a player is carrying the whole team. Not the manager enabling his side to flourish without too many key man dependencies.