Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


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Withnail

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Ole did well yesterday in exploiting Leeds' weaknesses. Asking McT to make those runs and play forward passes was a great change from how he usually plays. All credit to the manager.

And yet, Leeds were the perfect team to face for Ole. We have always known that he knows how to exploit an attacking opposition. As a team, however, you can still see how poor we are at keeping the ball. We cannot dampen down the tempo of a game when it is required. This is why we went out of the CL after being in a commanding position in the competition after the first two games. Let's not forget that that was just a couple of weeks ago.

It's quite hilarious really to see the flip floppers in this thread who have again changed their vote based on this one game. The jury is very much out (though I hope Ole proves me wrong and gets us close to the winning the league--that would be glorious).
One of the main criticisms has also been that we can't beat the press. I was worried going into the game about us getting pressed to death but we coped with that well and were able to bypassed it which was encouraging. I do take the point that Leeds Kamikaze style played into our hands.

We went out of the CL mainly because of some horrendous mistakes. I agree we do need to learn to control games better. The last few minutes against Sheffield was evidence of that. We were lumping free kicks forward as if we were chasing the game instead of keeping the ball and running the clock down.

Anyone changing their vote will surely have been based on the unbeaten run rather than just yesterday. If do well against Leicester and can get through Christmas still in touch of the top, more will surely change their minds.

The jury really shouldn't be out on whether he needs sacking immediately though. The notion of firing him now is plainly ridiculous.
 

sugar_kane

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Ole did well yesterday in exploiting Leeds' weaknesses. Asking McT to make those runs and play forward passes was a great change from how he usually plays. All credit to the manager.

And yet, Leeds were the perfect team to face for Ole. We have always known that he knows how to exploit an attacking opposition. As a team, however, you can still see how poor we are at keeping the ball. We cannot dampen down the tempo of a game when it is required. This is why we went out of the CL after being in a commanding position in the competition after the first two games. Let's not forget that that was just a couple of weeks ago.

It's quite hilarious really to see the flip floppers in this thread who have again changed their vote based on this one game. The jury is very much out (though I hope Ole proves me wrong and gets us close to the winning the league--that would be glorious).
I've seen this said alot and while not disputing it, it's worth pointing out that their games vs. City and Liverpool were much closer.

It's no mean feat putting six past a team who are decent just because they play attacking football, especially considering the bitter rivalry.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Just to sum this up.
My OP was Ole and Mou setup their teams in similar manner...I believe I said it is arguable how different their style is. Is stated Mou is most defensive of the two. I have seen nothing from your side to refute my point aside from your opinion on which football you prefer, every stat you have produced has supported my opinion.
This is your own stats mate:

Other Stats - Manchester United FC
StatOleConteJose
Shots Per Match14.7414.6310.16
Shots On Target / Match6.396.115.71
Shots Off Target / Match8.348.534.45
Fouls Per Match11.089.9710.53
Offsides Per Match3.243.323.66
Average Possession56%53%55%
Goals668568

How can you come out into conclusion using that stats that Ole set up their team in more similar manner as Jose? Your stats doesn't show that, look at the shots and the possession. Don't just come into conclusion without explanation.

It doesn't do shit to your argument, neither to our discussion.

Yesterday's game is the perfect example and we have the exact style that is like cryptonite to Leeds, we sit in, cede possession (United had 41%) and have the players to break and cause problems. This is not a criticism FYI, this is exactly what we should doing against a team like Leeds but it, again, proves my point that Ole is a defensive coach. I need to stress here, it's not bad or good to be a defense first coach.
That is the most clueless & biased post I have ever read. I can't believe you used yesterday to support your argument, you don't know anything about yesterday game and Leeds. Everyone concede more possession than Leeds when they played against them, Liverpool, Chelsea & City. Liverpool & City had no reason to have less possession because they weren't leading the match from the first early minutes like we were.







On the Chelsea squad, if your sole point is that Conte inherited Mou's whereas Ole inherited most of Mou's squad but completely ignores the factors around that, I don't know what to say because it's so irrelevant to the wider picture. If you're genuinely asking what relevance Conte's tactics have to our discussion which is essentially why he did so well first season at Chelsea, again I don't know what to say...it seems your logic for explaining which coaches are successful is just if they inherit a good team, they will do well. My sole point on this part is Ole did not inherit some rag tag band of mid table scrappers, he inherited a team whose last full season was a 2nd place finish and then he actively chose to get rid of those players you mentioned (they weren't out of the club before he came) and then was backed with expensive signings. We have a really good, deep squad and I got a lot of flak on the Spurs, United, City comparison thread because I suggested for the first time in a long time we're pretty level with City and I think now people are starting to get it - our recruitment has not been as bad as people think and the players everyone slates are not half as bad as people make out.

I'm glad you have finally got the fact that Ole/Conte are more similar the Conte/Mou.
You brought Conte into argument without looking the real picture. Conte didn't lose any of Jose winning title players, he inherited the same Jose title winning squad in his first season. As soon as Conte lost just 3 of Mourinho players (Ageing Cahill, Costa & Matic), look at what happened? 3 players only and it turned his team into shit. But if it's Ole is shouldn't be problem based on your logic? :lol:

Ole didn't actively chose to get rid those players. Players the ones chose not to stay.

Lukaku said, Ole wanted him to stay but Lukaku chose to leave. Read this: https://www.skysports.com/football/...-boss-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-wanted-to-keep-him

Herrera said, Ole was desperate him to stay. Read this: https://talksport.com/football/7032...ted-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-paris-saint-germain/

Fellaini & Valencia are ageing, they past it.
 

georgipep

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You are new to football then, welcome to football. This is so common because there is nothing wrong for the club to tell journalist which area or position they are looking for in transfer window. It’s a simple small information that they often give to journalist.
How is there nothing wrong with this? What purpose does it serve? To warn potential buying clubs of interest so they can increase the prices unnecessarily? Ridiculous statement. A club will leak information to the media only if there is any benefit of doing so. When it comes to transfer targets there is not only no benefit but there is actual harm. And if you don't understand that, go back and re-think your whole rationale.

Not every journalist are on the same tier mate.



Let’s don’t play dumb here. We had 4 months of transfer window last summer mate. 4 months! Cavani was available for 9 months. It took that long??
First, Cavani probably wanted to see what his options were before signing for any club. He was touted as potential signing for Juventus and Atletico Madrid before he was linked with us. Second, if we wanted to sign him earlier, we would have had to offer him the a package that would immediately convince him. Would you have happy if we signed him for ridiculous wages closer to De Gea's. You seem to live under an impression that our club can do whatever and whenever we want. It doesn't work like that in the real world.
 

Withnail

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How is there nothing wrong with this? What purpose does it serve? To warn potential buying clubs of interest so they can increase the prices unnecessarily? Ridiculous statement. A club will leak information to the media only if there is any benefit of doing so. When it comes to transfer targets there is not only no benefit but there is actual harm. And if you don't understand that, go back and re-think your whole rationale.
This makes no sense whatsoever.

Your claiming a club letting a journalist know that the are interested in a RW will cause other clubs to raise their price?

What, like they have a big book of prices somewhere and if we contact them first and catch them by surprise we'll get the player for that much but if we speak to a journalist first they'll lob on 20m?
 

Bobcat

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Because that isn't the standard to judge any progress by for any club that isn't a relegation struggling side. Thomas Tuchel's Mainz started the 2010-11 season winning 7 back to back Bundesliga games beating CL finalist Bayern Munich at their own pit on their way to topping the Bundesliga after 7 games. That was 2 years after Klopp resigned because he couldn't promote Mainz again from Bundesliga 2. That's definitive progress. But we aren't FSV Mainz 05. We are Manchester United for goodness sake.

We have World Cup winner, a Portuguese magnifico, a very intelligent creator in Donny, one of the smartest strikers in the world, Rashy, Martial, Greenwood, functionally brilliant players in McTominay and Fred, a best in the game 1v1 full back, under a manager who's regarded as "better fit" to the club than the serial winning predecessors that we had before him by many and "revolutionary tactical and managerial genius" by some. If all you have to offer on the plate in return is a 3rd finish that was 2 pts better than Moyes and a good form in 7 games (even ignoring the 1 win in 12 games, the 3 semi-final exits, bottling the CL in the manner and fashion we did, the shocking comments that he has routinely put out), then that is coming up very short than what is promised. Unless you lower the expectations which is what is going on here. Mourinho was harassed for finishing 2nd with 81 points and winning 3 trophies. LVG was hounded out when he did just the same as Ole and even winning the FA cup couldn't save his job. None of that should have happened either. But we should humble ourselves in knowing that bigger giants than Ole have been sacrificed for doing much much more than Ole and none of them were given the same comfort of lower expectations that Ole enjoys with arguably better players for the execution.



You should if you are a fan of the club and not just the manager. Putting one's neck on the line for the public to judge one by is something that comes with the job. How much Ole pushes his players is clearly apparent in how frequently we bottle games that we should be winning. It is difficult to see that though when "past 7 games" is the only focus.
Did you forget what happened between 2013 - 2019 or are you just being deliberately obtuse? "We are Manchester United" has as much weight to it as "United DNA" and "The United Way" and other such nonsensical terms. "We are Liverpool" did not help the scousers much between 1990-2020, despite them being the indisputable top dog in English football at the start of that period.

The state and mood around the club was pretty fecking grim about two years ago when Jose was sacked. Shit on a stick football combined with dressing room unrest, mutiny, shit results and daily negative briefings from the press. The fact that there now are careful whispers about a league challenge, two years later, must mean that Ole has done something right. Also, the fact that you only chose to highlight the negatives might affect your outlook somewhat. Everyone was gutted about how the CL campaign ended, but its not like we are the first team in history to fall short in a tough group.

No one harrased Jose for coming second, but we were not as good that season as the point tally suggests and there was creeping feeling among most fans that that was Jose's "peak" season and with us being so far behind City it felt like a long way up. And Jose won 3 trophies? He won the EL and a league cup and? Community Shield? LvG was hounded out because he failed to secure top 4 in a much weaker league than the current one in addition to mind numbingly boring football and quite a few reports of players being unhappy under his rigid philosophy

Expectations change over time, and they should be based on reality, not some ideal world where we are favorites to win the league every year
 

georgipep

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This makes no sense whatsoever.

Your claiming a club letting a journalist know that the are interested in a RW will cause other clubs to raise their price?

What, like they have a big book of prices somewhere and if we contact them first and catch them by surprise we'll get the player for that much but if we speak to a journalist first they'll lob on 20m?
No. I'm saying that the club letting the media know we are looking for any position brings absolutely no benefits to us. Only negatives.
1. It tells the squad players in the same position they are not good enough way too early.
2. If any name is dropped then it alerts any other potential suitors and creates a bidding war without the need for one.
3. If any name is dropped, then the selling club will most likely be annoyed because it causes unrest and forces them to address the issue publicly.

Overall, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to give away any valuable information regarding transfers. The whole topic is driven almost exclusively by media and player agents. If clubs had it their way, transfers would not be discussed publicly at all.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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How is there nothing wrong with this? What purpose does it serve? To warn potential buying clubs of interest so they can increase the prices unnecessarily? Ridiculous statement. A club will leak information to the media only if there is any benefit of doing so. When it comes to transfer targets there is not only no benefit but there is actual harm. And if you don't understand that, go back and re-think your whole rationale.
Mate, telling their most trusted journalist about which position they are looking for aren't changing things because there are many journalists out there can provide a much deeper information from player's agent.

A club will leak information to the media only if there is any benefit. But that's only the case if journalist didn't come to ask for information. For example why would the club/manager leak information to journalist about which players available or fit for the next match? Is there benefit? They could have just stay silent to make the opposition team guessing.

First, Cavani probably wanted to see what his options were before signing for any club. He was touted as potential signing for Juventus and Atletico Madrid before he was linked with us. Second, if we wanted to sign him earlier, we would have had to offer him the a package that would immediately convince him. Would you have happy if we signed him for ridiculous wages closer to De Gea's. You seem to live under an impression that our club can do whatever and whenever we want. It doesn't work like that in the real world.
That's not my impression at all mate, don't twist my word. My impression was the club should be able to read the situation that Sancho's transfer was beyond reach and Dortmund won't lower the price. If the club was able to do so, we won't be wasting 4 months our time for that saga.
 

Withnail

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No. I'm saying that the club letting the media know we are looking for any position brings absolutely no benefits to us. Only negatives.
1. It tells the squad players in the same position they are not good enough way too early.
2. If any name is dropped then it alerts any other potential suitors and creates a bidding war without the need for one.
3. If any name is dropped, then the selling club will most likely be annoyed because it causes unrest and forces them to address the issue publicly.

Overall, it makes absolutely no sense for the club to give away any valuable information regarding transfers. The whole topic is driven almost exclusively by media and player agents. If clubs had it their way, transfers would not be discussed publicly at all.
Clubs do talk to Journalists.

It's a give and take. They give them some information in order to get other favourable stories published. Telling a journalist the club is interested in a RW, when the world and it's mother knows there isn't one at the club, isn't going to cause any problems at all.

No one said anything about naming names by the way so I think you're over-egging this a bit.
 

Grylte

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Looking forward to the meltdown when he gets an extension :)
 

bond19821982

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Why not? Two games provided enough conviction for you to post this. Two games.

Two.
Seriously dude ? That wasn't my post in Dec 2018. It was my post after 1.8 years of the supposed cultural reboot !

The lack of common sense is staggering.
 

georgipep

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Mate, telling their most trusted journalist about which position they are looking for aren't changing things because there are many journalists out there can provide a much deeper information from player's agent.
Why would a player's agent speak to a journalist if they aren't pushing for a transfer? Or do you think journalists are calling agents randomly to see if something is going on? Most transfer talk is created by agents or journalists who create stories out of thin air. Rarely there would be something leaked by any of the two involved clubs and that would also be done either by someone who sells information to the media or by the selling club to increase pressure on the buying club to come up with the money. In the worst kind of situations, the buying club would release information to the media to turn the player's head (something they already do, most likely, through the agent).

A club will leak information to the media only if there is any benefit. But that's only the case if journalist didn't come to ask for information. For example why would the club/manager leak information to journalist about which players available or fit for the next match? Is there benefit? They could have just stay silent to make the opposition team guessing.
Squad news are small tokens managers give to the media to ensure engagement and media activity. Some managers do not like it (like Sir Alex) and some make it irrelevant (like Bielsa). So many managers have lied to the media both about injuries and match squads that it makes the whole point kind of moot.

Transfer information can actually change the money the club spends. I'm sure you will see the difference between the two.

That's not my impression at all mate, don't twist my word. My impression was the club should be able to read the situation that Sancho's transfer was beyond reach and Dortmund won't lower the price. If the club was able to do so, we won't be wasting 4 months our time for that saga.
How are you sure what exactly happened over the summer? Why are you certain we spent 4 months chasing the wind with Sancho? Pellistri and Diallo were not identified in the final hour, believe me. That work takes time. Getting Cavani, Telles, Pellistri and Diallo on deadline day took weeks, if not months to organize.
 

georgipep

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Clubs do talk to Journalists.

It's a give and take. They give them some information in order to get other favourable stories published. Telling a journalist the club is interested in a RW, when the world and it's mother knows there isn't one at the club, isn't going to cause any problems at all.

No one said anything about naming names by the way so I think you're over-egging this a bit.
What are the favourable stories published you mention? You think any media will refuse doing an interview if we request one just because we are not giving them transfer information?

And I think you answered your own question. If "the world and it's mother knows" what player we need, what is the point for the club to say anything to the media when they are already spinning stories? Makes no sense whatsoever. Transfers are done between clubs, agents and players. Media guess and create stories to sell clicks. And it works. This whole conversation is the living proof.
 

VP89

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Nope. It was after 2 games, buddy.
No, it was after his evaluation of Ole since 2018. Whether it was 2 games into the new season or not is immaterial, his evaluation of the manager went beyond that.
 

bond19821982

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Nope. It was after 2 games, buddy.
It wasn't. For a person who has enough conviction to check my post that was posted 2 months back, I would expect the same conviction to check my post in the last 6-8 months and get the reasoning.
As I said earlier, common sense is not something I see every day. So I will leave it as is.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Why would a player's agent speak to a journalist if they aren't pushing for a transfer? Or do you think journalists are calling agents randomly to see if something is going on? Most transfer talk is created by agents or journalists who create stories out of thin air. Rarely there would be something leaked by any of the two involved clubs and that would also be done either by someone who sells information to the media or by the selling club to increase pressure on the buying club to come up with the money. In the worst kind of situations, the buying club would release information to the media to turn the player's head (something they already do, most likely, through the agent).
Why wouldn't they?

Some player's agent & journalist built connection. Fabrizio Romano actually mentioned this before in AFTV that he built lot of connection with lot of football agents like they became football friends. Player's agent could give them false information or true information.

Squad news are small tokens managers give to the media to ensure engagement and media activity. Some managers do not like it (like Sir Alex) and some make it irrelevant (like Bielsa). So many managers have lied to the media both about injuries and match squads that it makes the whole point kind of moot.

Transfer information can actually change the money the club spends. I'm sure you will see the difference between the two.
That's the same shit what I'm telling you. Telling journalist that they are looking for winger and centre back without any further detail is also just small token, nothing but to ensure engagement and media activity during transfer window. Simon Stone never talk about club spoke to Gabriel & Benoît Badiashile last summer because the club didn't give him that much detail information.

How are you sure what exactly happened over the summer? Why are you certain we spent 4 months chasing the wind with Sancho? Pellistri and Diallo were not identified in the final hour, believe me. That work takes time. Getting Cavani, Telles, Pellistri and Diallo on deadline day took weeks, if not months to organize.
If that's the case then we are working like snail. Chelsea, Liverpool & City were working on bigger deal and they finalised them much quicker than us.
 

Zen86

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It wasn't. For a person who has enough conviction to check my post that was posted 2 months back, I would expect the same conviction to check my post in the last 6-8 months and get the reasoning.
As I said earlier, common sense is not something I see every day. So I will leave it as is.
Finding a rubbish post wasn't that hard, to be honest.

No, it was after his evaluation of Ole since 2018. Whether it was 2 games into the new season or not is immaterial, his evaluation of the manager went beyond that.
Yes, "Sack him immediately, We can still save the season" really comes across as a measured, well considered evaluation :rolleyes:
 

Withnail

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What are the favourable stories published you mention? You think any media will refuse doing an interview if we request one just because we are not giving them transfer information?

And I think you answered your own question. If "the world and it's mother knows" what player we need, what is the point for the club to say anything to the media when they are already spinning stories? Makes no sense whatsoever. Transfers are done between clubs, agents and players. Media guess and create stories to sell clicks. And it works. This whole conversation is the living proof.
We aren't talking about ITK's or tabloid rumour merchants here. The other poster was talking about Simon Stone who works for the BBC, a reputable news agency.

If he has information about a potential transfer it will have been well-sourced.

Not all media are the same and there are certain journos where it is clear they have been briefed by the club. Quite often journos like Stone, and Ducker have the same United story within an hour of each other. This can be whether the club want to get a message to fans re a transfer, to get their side of the story out and try to control the narrative or to shoot down a rumour.
 

Fts 74

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Read a very interesting book this weekend: “from good to great” by Jim Collins. "Greatness" is defined by Collins by a company that achieves financial performance several multiples better than the market average, over a sustained period.

When I read the book, it was impossible not to draw parallels to United and OGS.

One identified characteristic in companies that made the leap from good to great is Level 5 Leadership: Leaders who are humble, but driven to do what's best for the company.

Level 5 leaders display a powerful mixture of personal humility and indomitable will. They're incredibly ambitious, but their ambition is first and foremost for the cause, for the organization and its purpose, not themselves. While Level 5 leaders can come in many personality packages, they are often self-effacing, quiet, reserved, and even shy. Every good-to-great transition in our research began with a Level 5 leader who motivated the enterprise more with inspired standards than inspiring personality.

So.. Level 5 Leadership is the antithesis of egocentric celebrity - a person who love to be in the spotlight and take credit for the result.

The characteristics of a Level 5 leader is a spot on description of Ole, while the antithesis seems to match Jose and LVG perfectly.

Jim Collins also write in his book that Level 5 leaders are very often underestimated and discredited by experts and people outside of the company while highly rated by the people on the inside.

Something to think about, folks!
Hard to argue with any of that.

Thanks for sharing.
 

georgipep

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Why wouldn't they?

Some player's agent & journalist built connection. Fabrizio Romano actually mentioned this before in AFTV that he built lot of connection with lot of football agents like they became football friends. Player's agent could give them false information or true information.



That's the same shit what I'm telling you. Telling journalist that they are looking for winger and centre back without any further detail is also just small token, nothing but to ensure engagement and media activity during transfer window. Simon Stone never talk about club spoke to Gabriel & Benoît Badiashile last summer because the club didn't give him that much detail information.



If that's the case then we are working like snail. Chelsea, Liverpool & City were working on bigger deal and they finalised them much quicker than us.
I suggest we drop the transfer discussion as I think we will continue disagreeing. I firmly believe clubs prefer not to discuss any transfer related information with media.

As for the speed of our transfers, it depends. I also assume that a big part of it is trying to squeeze the transfer amounts and thus waiting until the last day adds pressure to the selling club if they need the money to finalize their own transfers. With Cavani, I'm quite confident the case was about him agreeing to our offer, not us being slow with it.
 

georgipep

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We aren't talking about ITK's or tabloid rumour merchants here. The other poster was talking about Simon Stone who works for the BBC, a reputable news agency.

If he has information about a potential transfer it will have been well-sourced.

Not all media are the same and there are certain journos where it is clear they have been briefed by the club. Quite often journos like Stone, and Ducker have the same United story within an hour of each other. This can be whether the club want to get a message to fans re a transfer, to get their side of the story out and try to control the narrative or to shoot down a rumour.
The same BBC that were once banned from our press room by Sir Alex? BBC is a media like every other who try to spin words into soundbites and to gain people's attention.

And it is one thing to prefer to give some media your press release before other, it's completely different to leak transfer information.
 

bond19821982

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Finding a rubbish post wasn't that hard, to be honest.



Yes, "Sack him immediately, We can still save the season" really comes across as a measured, well considered evaluation :rolleyes:
Yeah, results after 13 matches should guarantee the job until end of season is an intelligent post. But to sack him after 18 months of shit cultural reboot is rubbish post.

Common sense !
 

Shalashaska

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Its so boring the debate constantly being X Manager In or Out. He is 3rd with a game in hand at xmas, this is our best position in terms of points off the top at xmas since Fergie left. We look like we are improving continually over Ole's reign.

The Champions League was a disaster, but since Fergie left we have been very far from being a regular in the knockout stages of the CL, and I think the fact we were so gutted about going out of the group shows how are expectations of this team have risen in the last 2 years.

Ole clearly deserves the run to the end of the year to see how we finish. If we end within 5-10 points of the winners or better, how could we not give him more time and funds after that? If we end miles away from the top again, then it is time for Ole to step aside and have a new manager come in. But you can guarantee that the manager that follows Ole will be grateful for the team and dynamic Ole has left, rather than the absolute mess that he inherited
 

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I'm all over the map on Ole. The lack of tactical awareness bothers me but maybe its growing into the job and some people take longer. He has his good days and bad days, but the good days need to start overwhelming the bad days. Is he good enough to win an FA cup, probably - good enough to win EPL, maybe - good enough to win ECL, that's where it gets really itchy and scratchy for me. Maybe EPL isn't as strong this year as the last couple at the top and that helps after a few bad performances, but you really can't sack a manager who's in 3rd place. At the end of the season if the tactics are not consistently above the current level then maybe you have to think about a change if they finish outside top 3 or 4.
Generally I would say an ultimate goal like winning the CL (which Alex Ferguson did twice in 23 years at Utd and Roberto di Matteo did once in one year for Chelsea) is not a good day-to-day measure of how a manager functions. Generally, a manager that manages to improve a club and a team month by month, year by year, in a sustainable way, will have the better chances of paving the way for such trophies. The issue is to judge wether there is progress or not. In the case of Fergie, it was difficult for the fans to measure that progress for the first three to four years, but the insiders at the club saw the progress being made in how the club was run, the culture at the club, the character of the team personalities.

At many clubs, there are club hierarchies with spoting directors, technical directors, sports knowledge on the board, in the director seat, or other parts of the club that assemble much of that progress for a new coach, trainer or entrendor to come in and ‘light the fuse’. United has not been run like that, which is why the most interesting progress Solskjær has made as it appears to me is not regarding results or organized attacking patterns, but is more about getting the parts og the club to co-operate about the spirts development, build sports culture, get youth, senior and scouting to work more as a whole and on a basis of football thinking rather than business thinking, and getting the right kind of personalities in (and out).

That, in addition, results have actually been slowly creeping upwards since his first preseason/transfer window is to me a bonus, acknowledging how badly we were run as a football club since Fergie and Gill quit, what state the club apparently was in when Solskjær took over.

On thing I’d phrase differently, though, is that regarding tactical deployments (choice of formations, strategies and players for positions), Solskjær has done well, and many times been applauded bytactical experts like trainers for his tactical choices before and within games. Many have noticed how often he have made substitutions or formation changes that have altered games.

The main tactical weakness seems more to be about ‘recognizable playing style’, first and foremost in attack. Which is a very valid critique by the way. It is also a trade off, however. More collective cooperation increases the ability to succeed with the same strategy against most opponents. More individual freedom tends to give more flexibility to get something out of very different tactical challenges. Whereas Guardiola is an extreme example of the former, Solskjær, like his main mentor, puts more weight toward the latter. It looks very different, both when it works but particularily when it doesn’t. But both strategies are valid.

Now, Guardiola and Ferguson are two of the best football leaders in history, and they became that through very different processes. The time to compare Solskjær with their status is not now, rather at the end of his carreer in thirty years time. As for now, the relevant perspective I think is,is there progress, at various levels. So far, I’d argue there has been.
 

Foxbatt

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Lets wait to see how he handles the next few games too. Especially in the PL. The win against PSG last season was also something like this and Woodward made a hasty decision.
 

tomaldinho1

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This is your own stats mate:

Other Stats - Manchester United FC
StatOleConteJose
Shots Per Match14.7414.6310.16
Shots On Target / Match6.396.115.71
Shots Off Target / Match8.348.534.45
Fouls Per Match11.089.9710.53
Offsides Per Match3.243.323.66
Average Possession56%53%55%
Goals668568

How can you come out into conclusion using that stats that Ole set up their team in more similar manner as Jose? Your stats doesn't show that, look at the shots and the possession. Don't just come into conclusion without explanation.

It doesn't do shit to your argument, neither to our discussion.



That is the most clueless & biased post I have ever read. I can't believe you used yesterday to support your argument, you don't know anything about yesterday game and Leeds. Everyone concede more possession than Leeds when they played against them, Liverpool, Chelsea & City. Liverpool & City had no reason to have less possession because they weren't leading the match from the first early minutes like we were.









You brought Conte into argument without looking the real picture. Conte didn't lose any of Jose winning title players, he inherited the same Jose title winning squad in his first season. As soon as Conte lost just 3 of Mourinho players (Ageing Cahill, Costa & Matic), look at what happened? 3 players only and it turned his team into shit. But if it's Ole is shouldn't be problem based on your logic? :lol:

Ole didn't actively chose to get rid those players. Players the ones chose not to stay.

Lukaku said, Ole wanted him to stay but Lukaku chose to leave. Read this: https://www.skysports.com/football/...-boss-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-wanted-to-keep-him

Herrera said, Ole was desperate him to stay. Read this: https://talksport.com/football/7032...ted-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-paris-saint-germain/

Fellaini & Valencia are ageing, they past it.
This has just gone full circle. I'm genuinely amazed at your reply.

Once more, for the last time: Jose and Ole are, in my opinion, defence first coaches. I cannot stress enough that this is not a criticism but an observation. Conte is a good example to bring in because, as you said, he is also a defensive coach (who you wrongly thought was more similar to Jose and I appreciate you accepting you were wrong on that point). Therefore the stats I presented were from 3 defensive coaches with Mou, as I have now said about 5 times, being the most defensive of the three and Ole/Conte being actually remarkably similar in how they like their teams to play, more direct, playing direct passes between the lines.

On your second point, how on earth is that your take on what I have said. My point was our style is perfect for Leeds (pretty sure that result is evidence enough for that) and I pointed out the stats which are irrefutable (literally the stats are the stats) and yet you are trying to argue that saying that must be biased and agenda driven. Did you not watch the game? We setup perfectly and just demolished them. Please also use this example as a good indicator of my point in the first paragraph because Bielsa IS an attacking coach, probably the most attacking PL coach out there, and then use common sense to look at the stats you have posted ((Klopp 48%, Pep 47%, Lampard 45% and then Ole 41% which pretty accurately reflects which of those managers are more attacking than the others)).

OK, finally we are getting somewhere a bit more reasonable with the last point. I'm happy you are ditching Fellaini (as I said 2 or 3 posts ago) and I'm assuming you are also ditching Sanchez (which was a terrible argument in the first place) which leaves us with Herrera and Lukaku. Herrera I already addressed & I did the same with Lukaku. I will point out this also proves you were 100% wrong with the below:

What I suggested was you are unfairly using Conte's & Mourinho finished with 80 points to suit your argument. The reality is Ole didn't inherit the same 17/18 squad, but Conte inherited the same title winning 14/15 squad. Are you finally get it now?
Because actually he inherited the exact same squad as Mou (bar Fellaini who you above admit was 'past it' & Herrera) but then he chose to change it. As through this whole, somewhat frustrating exchange, this has taken longer to get to and your inflammatory style of posting (which I now see is not just reserved for me but all posters) has made it a lot less efficient than it could have been.
 

VP89

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Yes, "Sack him immediately, We can still save the season" really comes across as a measured, well considered evaluation :rolleyes:
It was an evaluation based on Ole's time here in entirety, not just from 2 games. Whether you agree with his post or not is fair game, but don't try and argue he just woke up saw 2 games of us under Ole and decided from that alone.
 

Shark

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Lets wait to see how he handles the next few games too. Especially in the PL. The win against PSG last season was also something like this and Woodward made a hasty decision.
Agreed. At the end of the day it's in Ole's interest put things right in the league since we've crashed out of the CL in the group stages after putting ourselves in a great position. That's still a big disappointment no matter how anyone tries to frame it.
Finishing minimum 2nd/3rd along with a trophy wouldn't be too bad at all, especially if we at least get closer to Liverpool and City points wise. Let's see if he can pull it off.
 

Widow

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After 13 matches , seriously?
Did you read what I wrote? Doesn't seem like it!

Currently third, five points behind the leaders, a game in hand....How does he not deserve to see out the season UNLESS THERE IS A MASSIVE DROP INFORM as I stated.

How is any part of that comment unreasonable?
 

Taktik T-Rex

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Did you forget what happened between 2013 - 2019 or are you just being deliberately obtuse? "We are Manchester United" has as much weight to it as "United DNA" and "The United Way" and other such nonsensical terms.
What are you waffling about? My argument isn't "We are Manchester United" so we should be winning every thing under the sun. My argument is that our standards must *at the very least* be bigger than lapping up 7 unbeaten games as some sort of revolutionary success. Maybe you've forgotten we've lifted a European trophy, we've finished 2nd with 81 points, we've won the FA Cup, all of which Ole has demonstrably failed at when given a full backing with players the other managers were sacked for demanding, even after a 3 month mid season break. I smell your desperation to keep supressing those facts along with the other failures of Ole to make 7 unbeaten games and some lucky 3rd finish feel as a resounding success.


"We are Liverpool" did not help the scousers much between 1990-2020, despite them being the indisputable top dog in English football at the start of that period.
Liverpool are where they are now because they sacked a manager who gave a title challenge in 13-14.. who also had a 10 game winning run and a 13 game unbeaten run in the next season. For all the 30 years in wilderness, they were never 33 points behind us like we were last season which many here are happy to celebrate as a trophy. Don't tell me forgetting our standards is an option. It isn't. If that is the way we want to "progress" then a lot more than 30 years in wilderness beckons us.
 
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anant

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It was an evaluation based on Ole's time here in entirety, not just from 2 games. Whether you agree with his post or not is fair game, but don't try and argue he just woke up saw 2 games of us under Ole and decided from that alone.
Come on! You know you're better than this.

Last season we finished 3rd, which not many people expected even at the start of 19/20 season. 2 games at the start of a new season (a season where we haven't had a pre season), he's demanding to sack the manager. How stupid is that?!
 

Widow

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But we reached our outspoken goals so far? The ambition last season was top4, we got top3. We're markedly improving this season and we're still very much in the title race. What are we doing here? Infighting among ourselves while we're enjoying the 2nd best season start since SAF retired? (17/18 saw us at 32p after 14 rounds, 20/21 will net 29points once the Burnley game is played)
There's noway Ole should be sacked. I'm not convinced he's the messah yet but barring a drop off the cliff decline, he has definitely done enough to see the season out.
 

VP89

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Come on! You know you're better than this.

Last season we finished 3rd, which not many people expected even at the start of 19/20 season. 2 games at the start of a new season (a season where we haven't had a pre season), he's demanding to sack the manager. How stupid is that?!
Many posters weren't pleased with performances last season, whether I agree with his evaluation 2 days in or not is immaterial.

My point is, his evaluation wasn't limited to just those 2 games. It's more than reasonable to disagree but don't paint the picture that he's just based it off 2 games alone.
 

Withnail

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The same BBC that were once banned from our press room by Sir Alex? BBC is a media like every other who try to spin words into soundbites and to gain people's attention.

And it is one thing to prefer to give some media your press release before other, it's completely different to leak transfer information.
More whataboutery but this is wildly off-topic now.

Follow the transfer thread in the next window. It's quite obvious what goes on.
 

rotherham_red

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Yeah, results after 13 matches should guarantee the job until end of season is an intelligent post. But to sack him after 18 months of shit cultural reboot is rubbish post.

Common sense !
I mean, it's close to half the season. And considering he's only talking about the context of the current season, I'm not sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet over it.

It's certainly more grounded in reality than your post which asked for us to sack the manager who *checks notes* took us to 3rd from 6th the previous year.
 

Taktik T-Rex

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OGS has given the players freedom and confidence to play, and our football is flowing and many times mesmerising.I don't think there is a club right now in world football that can choose to play an open game against us and not get battered or outscored. OGS has instilled the belief and good arrogance in how pe play.
That arrogance also comes with a double edged sword. You can put 6 past a recently promoted side who were 16 years in Championship, but also lose against a 14 year old Redbull club when all we had to do is to avoid a loss. Ole is good tactically and knows how to set us up in important games, I will give him that. But he often struggles with the messaging and the timing of the messaging. Which is why we don't elongate our winning streak and compress our losing run. What we have is equal periods of good and bad. And that inconsistency is never good enough at the level we play in.
 
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