Xavi

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I don't see any argument for Pirlo over Xavi.

Xavi is a level above him. He is naturally more gifted athletically(covers far more ground), is more press resistant (Euro 2012 Final - Xavi shadowed Pirlo that game and took him out of the game) and has a higher peak.

The idea that Xavi could only thrive in 1 specific system is untrue to me. We saw him shine in the 2012 Final when Spain ceded possession much more and Xavi was the MOTM. Similar story in the Euro 2008 Final and throughout that tournament(Spain weren't monopolizing the ball as much back under Aragones).

Barcelona's/Spain's midfield has never dominated games to the extent they did with Xavi versus without him.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Tiki-taka is based on possession and total control of the midfield.

Otherwise I don't what it is, but it's not tiki-taka.

Barça's problems after 2015 are centered around a weak midfield and pseudo-tiki taka.

Of course they are but its not like they replaced those god like midfielders with other great technical midfielders. In recent years they've gone as far as fielding the likes of Rakitic and Vidal. Very far from the basis of their play, add a coach out of his depth and it is far from rosey.

 

[Casanova85]

Of course they are but its not like they replaced those god like midfielders with other great technical midfielders. In recent years they've gone as far as fielding the likes of Rakitic and Vidal. Very far from the basis of their play, add a coach out of his depth and it is far from rosey.

We'll see if Valverde can properly use Arthur and DeJong.

 

[RooneyLegend]

A) even in a no-Pep team, don't you think a player like Xavi would lead to a certain dominance in midfield? Not necessarily prime Barca level of dominance but at least to a certain extent?

B) who is better, the player that is a 7
/10 in any system or the one who is a 10/10 in one?

A) He would, but then as would any exceptionally technical midfielder. We used Scholes to control games and Juve/Milan used Pirlo. It never was at that level though which is my point. Swap him into those teams and it would be a similar story.

B) Obviously the latter is better and that's because these systems exist. As i said i saw him before that era and while he was the same player he wasnt as effective as he became. Those are the pleasures of working with a transcendent coach. The issue however is when comparing players we have to look at the effect that the systems have.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I don't see any argument for Pirlo over Xavi.

Xavi is a level above him. He is naturally more gifted athletically(covers far more ground), is more press resistant (Euro 2012 Final - Xavi shadowed Pirlo that game and took him out of the game) and has a higher peak.

The idea that Xavi could only thrive in 1 specific system is untrue to me. We saw him shine in the 2012 Final when Spain ceded possession much more and Xavi was the MOTM. Similar story in the Euro 2008 Final and throughout that tournament(Spain weren't monopolizing the ball as much back under Aragones).

Barcelona's/Spain's midfield has never dominated games to the extent they did with Xavi versus without him.

Almost every player could be man marked out of a game. It does create space for teammates but when a team is virtually running on one mans work then it'll fail.

 

[RooneyLegend]

We'll see if Valverde can properly use Arthur and DeJong.

Doubt it, havent seen a manager being carried by the quality of his players as much as he is in some time. That man is clueless. First things first its going to take him an eternity to figure out that using De Jong anywhere outside his holding role wont work.

 

[P-Ro]

I heard Xavi was Chilean and he switched nationality to have a better chance in winning an international championship. It's a sad thing when you turn your back on your country for your own personal glory.

 

[2mufc0]

I heard Xavi was Chilean and he switched nationality to have a better chance in winning an international championship. It's a sad thing when you turn your back on your country for your own personal glory.

Not sure about that he was born in Spain.

 

[P-Ro]

Not sure about that he was born in Spain.

Apparently it was quite a hush hush flip. Most Chilean's don't even know about it.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Apparently it was quite a hush hush flip. Most Chilean's don't even know about it.

The people of Barcelona will be quite surprised as well, particularly his mum and dad.

 

[Casanova85]

I heard Xavi was Chilean and he switched nationality to have a better chance in winning an international championship. It's a sad thing when you turn your back on your country for your own personal glory.

I hope this is an attempt at comedy. Guy's from Terrassa, province of Barcelona.

 

[Bennz McCarthey17]

Where do you have Scholes in this?

Scholes just below the two, not because he was any less a player, its just that he could never replicate his Man United form for England, but in terms of ability there isn't much difference between the three for me.






P.S my father would kill me if he read that I thought there was a midfielder better than Scholes and Keane

 

[Bennz McCarthey17]

I like Pirlo but he can be a passenger in high tempo games. His workrate can be suspect as well. Imagine him in those Pep-Mou El Clasicos, he probably find it hard to exert his dominance.

But no doubt his dribbling is better than Xavi. When needed he can drive the play forward with it.

Tbf Pirlo had questionable workrate and his poor athleticism counts against him in high tempo games. Xavi never had that problem and he actually had an engine.

Ability wise I'd say they are about equal. Pirlo's ball striking ability was on another level though.

I agree, maybe I should have said ability wise you couldn't separate them. But I guess when you are as good as he was with the ball, and you had Gattuso and Seedorf in midfield, Cafu, Nesta, Maldini Cannavaro and Stam etc behind you, you could be forgiven for being a bit "lazy"..

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Almost every player could be man marked out of a game. It does create space for teammates but when a team is virtually running on one mans work then it'll fail.

My point is it's easier to man mark Pirlo out of a game.

Heck, our very own Park did it when we played Milan in 2010.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

My point is it's easier to man mark Pirlo out of a game.

Heck, our very own Park did it when we played Milan in 2010.

People pretend as though the team dynamic doesn't matter though. As if Xavi was untouchable no matter how the game flows. Pre-Pep Barcelona really struggled in La Liga towards the end of Rijkaard's time. If he plays in a lesser team he struggles more, just like any footballer out there.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

A) even in a no-Pep team, don't you think a player like Xavi would lead to a certain dominance in midfield? Not necessarily prime Barca level of dominance but at least to a certain extent?

B) who is better, the player that is a 7
/10 in any system or the one who is a 10/10 in one?

I'd say Xavi edges it, but Pirlo is not a 7/10. That's just silly.

I'd prolly go for this as the order.

Xavi Iniesta
Scholes Pirlo
Schweinsteiger Modric
Alonso Carrick Kroos etc

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

People pretend as though the team dynamic doesn't matter though. As if Xavi was untouchable no matter how the game flows. Pre-Pep Barcelona really struggled in La Liga towards the end of Rijkaard's time. If he plays in a lesser team he struggles more, just like any footballer out there.

Of course it matters.

Every single player playing in a lesser team will struggle more.

I wasn't trying to imply Xavi was untouchable.

 

[Abe144]

We could have our own Xavi in Gomes if he got the playing time. Do you think.

Why put this much pressure/hope on a kid? Let him become a first team regular. No need to compare him to the greatest CM ever

 

[B20]

Of course it matters.

Every single player playing in a lesser team will struggle more.

I wasn't trying to imply Xavi was untouchable.

In actual practice, Xavi was basically untouchable for 5-6 years though. System or not, his performance level is simply unprecedented.

It wasn't the system that made him so press resistant either.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

In actual practice, Xavi was basically untouchable for 5-6 years though. System or not, his performance level is simply unprecedented.

It wasn't the system that made him so press resistant either.

Certainly set the standard for central midfield dominance/excellence.

There wasn't a big game from 2008 to 2011/2012 in which Xavi didn't dominate in midfield.

 

[2mufc0]

Certainly set the standard for central midfield dominance/excellence.

There wasn't a big game from 2008 to 2011/2012 in which Xavi didn't dominate in midfield.

That's just hyperbole, he was stifled a few times against defensive teams in big CL games.

 

[Tostao_80]

That's just hyperbole, he was stifled a few times against defensive teams in big CL games.

Give me 3 examples.

 

[giorno]

(covers far more ground), (Euro 2012 Final - Xavi shadowed Pirlo that game and took him out of the game)

This isn't true. Pirlo covered similar ground, and he was very much a factor in the first half of the final. Second half doesn't count, game was over already.

 

[Gio]

This isn't true. Pirlo covered similar ground, and he was very much a factor in the first half of the final. Second half doesn't count, game was over already.

I wouldn't underestimate Pirlo's off-the-ball contributions in 2006 either in Italy's World Cup winning side, which although flanked by a lot of graft in a narrow midfield, was effectively a midfield two.

 

[thepolice123]

In actual practice, Xavi was basically untouchable for 5-6 years though. System or not, his performance level is simply unprecedented.

It wasn't the system that made him so press resistant either.

No matter how you see it playing in a midfield rondo with numerous players that are 2-3 yards nearer will definitely make you more press resistant. And it will help if your teammates are coached in the same exact manner. You can move the ball quicker and escape the pressure with quick exchanges.

On contrary, you are more likely to lose the ball in midfield if you are being pressed with no one in the vicinity to release the ball to. You either have to take the player on or make a more risky pass.

The whole Barca system revolves around possession and compression of play. The high line, the midfield triangle, Messi in the false nine, Alves as the winger/fullback. Players all in close proximity to circulate possession.

Juventus and our team under Fergie played a more expansive football. Stretching the play and using width. Players are further apart and our midfielders play longer passes.

 

[giorno]

I agree, maybe I should have said ability wise you couldn't separate them. But I guess when you are as good as he was with the ball, and you had Gattuso and Seedorf in midfield, Cafu, Nesta, Maldini Cannavaro and Stam etc behind you, you could be forgiven for being a bit "lazy"..

Why do people always mention seedorf as some kinda big defensive contributor on that milan team

Seedorf openly disdained defending and did the bare minimum(if that). Pirlo, while not good at it, contributed a lot more to it than Seedorf. Gattuso was the one keeping everything together and making it work, almost single-handedly

My point is it's easier to man mark Pirlo out of a game.

Heck, our very own Park did it when we played Milan in 2010.

And your (ex) very own ander herrera did to xavi a year later

Give me 3 examples.

Liverpool-Barcelona 0-1(ridiculous result, liverpool completely overrun and dominated barcelona and should have won comfortably) 2007, Chelsea-Barcelona 1-1, Inter-Barcelona 3-1

 

[Bestietom]

Why put this much pressure/hope on a kid? Let him become a first team regular. No need to compare him to the greatest CM ever

Where or How am I putting pressure on him. I stated COULD have. Which we will never know until he is tried or gets a regular spot.

 

[matbezlima]

Why do people always mention seedorf as some kinda big defensive contributor on that milan team

Seedorf openly disdained defending and did the bare minimum(if that). Pirlo, while not good at it, contributed a lot more to it than Seedorf. Gattuso was the one keeping everything together and making it work, almost single-handedly

And your (ex) very own ander herrera did to xavi a year later

Liverpool-Barcelona 0-1(ridiculous result, liverpool completely overrun and dominated barcelona and should have won comfortably) 2007, Chelsea-Barcelona 1-1, Inter-Barcelona 3-1

The worst thing when comparing great players is that it soon comes to a point when it becomes a contest between the players' flaws and their worst performances, their greatness becomes thrown to backside of the discussion focus.

Also, all players have plenty of average or bad games, even in their peak seasons. Even Messi and CR7.

For example, the first leg against Arsenal in 2010, a 2-2 draw at the Emirates, Xavi was indisputably man of the match, he seemed possessed. Messi, aside from perhaps the first 20 minutes, was barely noticeable.

In that match, Xavi also admirably showed a greater verticality in his playing than usual, a truly impressive performance, probably top 5 among his best performances.

 

[Mark_Barca]

Liverpool-Barcelona 0-1(ridiculous result, liverpool completely overrun and dominated barcelona and should have won comfortably) 2007, Chelsea-Barcelona 1-1, Inter-Barcelona 3-1

First one was 2007, the post said 2008 onwards.

Barca had more possession against Chelsea whilst having 10 men for around 30 minutes. Very debatable.

Inter game was like 70% possession and Inter scored on break aways. Xavi did his job and dominated possession that night.

 

[giorno]

First one was 2007, the post said 2008 onwards.

Barca had more possession against Chelsea whilst having 10 men for around 30 minutes. Very debatable.

Inter game was like 70% possession and Inter scored on break aways. Xavi did his job and dominated possession that night.

You're right about 2007. Poster said xavi was ineffective, nothing to do with possession mate. Xavi was useless in those games. As he was in the second leg against inter, come to think of it

 

[Tostao_80]

You're right about 2007. Poster said xavi was ineffective, nothing to do with possession mate. Xavi was useless in those games. As he was in the second leg against inter, come to think of it

False:

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/397395/Live/Europe-UEFA-Champions-League-2009-2010-Barcelona-Inter

Xavi was great in that match. He dominated the entire match (contributed heavily to Barcas 86% possession). He completed more passes than all of Inters outfield players. And not just passing for passing sake, he had more key passes in that game than anyone else (even more than Leo). He also created the game winner.

 

[thepolice123]

The worst thing when comparing great players is that it soon comes to a point when it becomes a contest between the players' flaws and their worst performances, their greatness becomes thrown to backside of the discussion focus.

Also, all players have plenty of average or bad games, even in their peak seasons. Even Messi and CR7.

For example, the first leg against Arsenal in 2010, a 2-2 draw at the Emirates, Xavi was indisputably man of the match, he seemed possessed. Messi, aside from perhaps the first 20 minutes, was barely noticeable.

In that match, Xavi also admirably showed a greater verticality in his playing than usual, a truly impressive performance, probably top 5 among his best performances.

TBF Arsenal are the whipping boys of Europe. Almost every great player will have their top 5 performance against them.

If I'm not wrong Messi put 4 goals past them in the second leg. The last one particularly was pure class. Faking Eboue by letting the ball roll and slotted thru the GK legs.

 

[matbezlima]

You're right about 2007. Poster said xavi was ineffective, nothing to do with possession mate. Xavi was useless in those games. As he was in the second leg against inter, come to think of it

Pretty much the entire Barcelona team was very ineffective, including Messi. Inter parked the bus with all their players.

 

[matbezlima]

TBF Arsenal are the whipping boys of Europe. Almost every great player will have their top 5 performance against them.

If I'm not wrong Messi put 4 goals past them in the second leg. The last one particularly was pure class. Faking Eboue by letting the ball roll and slotted thru the GK legs.

Many Arsenal fans back then were calling Xavi overrated and claiming that Fábregas was far better. Xavi put Fábregas and the Arsenal fans in their place with a masterclass

 

[RooneyLegend]

My point is it's easier to man mark Pirlo out of a game.

Heck, our very own Park did it when we played Milan in 2010.

Its easy to man mark a player out of a game. Some exceptional individualists have been man marked. However its a dangerous ploy because it disrupts a teams defensive shape. You can do that playing a virtual one man side but when thats not the case it leads to tears.

Ive seen Lambert man mark Zidane. Ive seen Mathaus man mark Maradona. Our very own Hererra man marked Hazard once upon a time. Man marking is different to pressing and hard to play under those conditions for any player regardless of ability.

 

[Abe144]

Its easy to man mark a player out of a game. Some exceptional individualists have been man marked. However its a dangerous ploy because it disrupts a teams defensive shape. You can do that playing a virtual one man side but when thats not the case it leads to tears.

Ive seen Lambert man mark Zidane. Ive seen Mathaus man mark Maradona. Our very own Hererra man marked Hazard once upon a time. Man marking is different to pressing and hard to play under those conditions for any player regardless of ability.

I remember Xavi getting man marked out of a game at the Camp Nou. It was a league match between Barcelona and Almeria that ended in a draw. It was sometime around 2009 maybe. A guy named Chico who I never heard of before or after was all over him for 90mins

 

[matbezlima]

I remember Xavi getting man marked out of a game at the Camp Nou. It was a league match between Barcelona and Almeria that ended in a draw. It was sometime around 2009 maybe. A guy named Chico who I never heard of before or after was all over him for 90mins

Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and the whole team overall often suffered seriously against Valencia and Espanyol. They were always difficult fixtures.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I remember Xavi getting man marked out of a game at the Camp Nou. It was a league match between Barcelona and Almeria that ended in a draw. It was sometime around 2009 maybe. A guy named Chico who I never heard of before or after was all over him for 90mins

It wasn’t just him, they man marked xavi and iniesta and follows them around the pitch the whole match. It worked as they just couldn’t get the passing rhythm going, and when they did they fouled.

It was a smart tactic I don’t know why people didn’t try it more often.

 

[Amar__]

It wasn’t just him, they man marked xavi and iniesta and follows them around the pitch the whole match. It worked as they just couldn’t get the passing rhythm going, and when they did they fouled.

It was a smart tactic I don’t know why people didn’t try it more often.

Because you generally lose two players in your team too, and the other team is still left with Messi.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Because you generally lose two players in your team too, and the other team is still left with Messi.

Back then Messi wasn’t as good at playmaking. Cut the supply line was half the battle