Youssoufa Moukoko

Acrobat7

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I believe he had an 18 year old girlfriend when he was „12“, so there’s that. :lol:
 

Classical Mechanic

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I mean, if you look at the video, even if he was the same age, even if he was a year older, instead of being like 3 years younger or so, those skills have nothing to do with physicality.

The kid has probably the most hype I've ever seen around a German teenager coming through since I've started following football. He hasn't played a minute of professional football yet but basically all German football fans know him. His scoring record across the youth teams has been consistently closer to 2 goals per game than 1 goal a game, despite playing in age brackets above his. Even if he was older than his documents say, he'd still be an incredible talent. Dortmund's u19 coach has stated in the past:
"Moukoko becoming a professional footballer is as certain as hearing an amen during a mass at church".
:lol:
Predicting he'll become a professional footballer is not a particularly bold claim. There are players that become professionals at United that are now playing non-league in their mid-twenties.

His goal scoring record is hard to ignore though. A slight caution might be that he only scored 1 goal in 5 games against Barcelona, Inter and Derby in the Youth League this season which is a higher level. It will be interesting to follow him in the competition next year as he would have been one youngest players in it this time round.
 

sun_tzu

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Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
Predicting he'll become a professional footballer is not a particularly bold claim. There are players that become professionals at United that are now playing non-league in their mid-twenties.

His goal scoring record is hard to ignore though. A slight caution might be that he only scored 1 goal in 5 games against Barcelona, Inter and Derby in the Youth League this season which is a higher level. It will be interesting to follow him in the competition next year as he would have been one youngest players in it this time round.
I believe he became the competitions youngest ever scorer this year?
He might not even be involved in it next season if hes involved with the 1st team?
 

Classical Mechanic

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I believe he became the competitions youngest ever scorer this year?
He might not even be involved in it next season if hes involved with the 1st team?
I think he'll probably play in it next year too, they were playing Reyna in it this season and he played with the first team.
 

sun_tzu

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Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
I think he'll probably play in it next year too, they were playing Reyna in it this season and he played with the first team.
probably best for him if he does too much senior football at a young age can impact a player long term (e.g. I think rooney might have been a better player in his 30's if he had played less first team football at 16 /17)
 

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Nah, I think most have watched highlight videos at some point. His stats are so remarkable that they alone play a huge role to all that hype, too. Personally, I haven't watched a full game of his either so I can only judge based on highlights.

Anyway, I'm not fully convinced as of yet because of stories like Avdijaj, Yesil, etc. Scoring at youth level doesn't mean you can transfer that to your professional career. However, the Dortmund officials seem totally convinced of him and that's a huge argument. They aren't Schalke and know how to handle and rate young players. And they not only want to integrate him in the professional team as soon as possible, they even initiated a change of rules to make that happen even earlier. That's a huge statement and showcases that they rate him ahead of Pulisic and Reyna at the same age, for instance. And as I said: If the last years proved anythimg, then that Dortmund know what they are talking about regarding talent development.
In Moukoko's case it's plain to see that youth football holds no challenge for him, Dortmund wanting to give him a run in the senior squad doesn't prove anything more than that, but as you have pointed out overperforming against kids is no guarantee of anything. In general and talking purely in football terms the age restriction is a relic of the past. The whole development process has been sped up a lot in recent years, so it makes sense for Dortmund, as a club that wants to specialize in the most talented of youngsters, to try and push that gap down regardless of Moukoko.
 

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Any relation to Champ Man legend Tonton Zola Moukoko?
Exactly my thoughts. I still have many fond memories of CM Moukoko...
 

do.ob

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Schalke's youth academy is leagues ahead of Dortmund's though isn't it?
It used to be, but their output has declined together with the club's overall position. I believe he's referring to how Schalke handled their most precious talents once they were about to break through, though.
E.g.

Draxler overloaded with expectation, years later said he didn't really try in training at Schalke and of course there is this little episode:

When Götze left Dortmund for Bayern and Draxler extended his contract at Schalke around the same time they drove these trucks all through the Ruhr Area, including taking a picture in front of Dortmund's stadium.

Avdijaj, they gave him a €40something million release clause and the press took it from there, I guess the moste noteworthy thing he did as a senior footballer afterwards was a car accident.

With Özil they started/escalated a fight with his father(agent), don't remember what it was about really - money perhaps - then tried to brand him as problematic and sold him off to Bremen midseason for a relatively modest fee.

More recently it's Harit about whom stories of nightly casino visits have made it into the press or Schubert and Nübel, two young goal keepers they have successfully burned this season.
 
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Zehner

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Schalke's youth academy is leagues ahead of Dortmund's though isn't it?
It definitely used to be. Schalke's youth academy was arguably the best in Germany for the best part of the last two decades I'd say. But their integration of those talents into their professional squads was always atrocious. They overhyped them, put them in the limelight, expected too much etc. Many of their most promising youngsters never really made it. It's also no coincidence that their best talents apart from Neuer didn't develop as expected, at least not while they were with them. Özil and Sané only really got going once they left Schalke, Draxler and Meyer never really lived up to their potential.

Dortmund is different. They try to protect their young players against media hype and criticism, develop them carefully, etc. If they initiate a change of rules so that they can integrate Moukoko into the first team a year earlier, that's a real statement from my perspective. They wouldn't do that if they didn't have the feeling that he is up to that task.
 

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In Moukoko's case it's plain to see that youth football holds no challenge for him, Dortmund wanting to give him a run in the senior squad doesn't prove anything more than that, but as you have pointed out overperforming against kids is no guarantee of anything. In general and talking purely in football terms the age restriction is a relic of the past. The whole development process has been sped up a lot in recent years, so it makes sense for Dortmund, as a club that wants to specialize in the most talented of youngsters, to try and push that gap down regardless of Moukoko.
Yeah but given that Moukoko is as old as the official documents suggest (or one or two years older than that), it's still really impressive that he's youth football holds no challenge for him. I mean they didn't do the same with Pulisic and Reyna although those two are/were among the most promising youth prospects in Europe, too, did they? So they somehow see more in Moukoko, it seems. And I think in recent years, Dortmund earned themselves the benefit of the doubt in such matters. They've got an incredible eye for U18 players and still Moukoko is the only one who gets this kind of treatment from them. I mean, we ourselves have just given Wirtz many important minutes this second part of the season and now he's the youngest goal scorer in Bundesliga history - and Wirtz didn't hold a candle to Moukoko at youth level although he's apparently two years older.

Obviously, those things don't prove anything but they are indications. As I said, no guarantee, but I absolutely understand why some people get hyped up about him.
 

Inigo Montoya

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That was my point. It's still impressive what he's doing. Even if he is lying about his age (we don't know, but I think he is), he has an impressive goal scoring record regardless. So he's still a top prospect.
Odd that this only ever an issue when discussing African players or of African descent. It seems that everyone in West Africa lies about their age
 

In Rainbows

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Odd that this only ever an issue when discussing African players or of African descent. It seems that everyone in West Africa lies about their age
Why would you jump from 1 person to everyone in West Africa lying about their age? And what does their origin have to do with this?
 

Acrobat7

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Odd that this only ever an issue when discussing African players or of African descent. It seems that everyone in West Africa lies about their age
Well, he is from a country that is not necessarily know for being a poster child when it comes to documents, destroys players 4 years older than him for fun and has an 18 year old girlfriend when he is 12. I think it is obviously fair to at least question his age.
That being said, he is great at football and will hopefully make it at Dortmund.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Why would you jump from 1 person to everyone in West Africa lying about their age?
Because it's a pattern that I've seen for the last 20/30 years, and I find it fecking offensive that just because a black kid dominates his age group, and he happens to be physically imposing; he's lying about his age.

My son's Under 11s played a team this year and the opposition had a kid of Nigerian descent who was literally head and shoulders above all the kids. Good job, strength apart, he actually wasn't very good or we would have protested and demanded to see his birth certificate :rolleyes:
 

Inigo Montoya

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Well, he is from a country that is not necessarily know for being a poster child when it comes to documents, destroys players 4 years older than him for fun and has an 18 year old girlfriend when he is 12. I think it is obviously fair to at least question his age.
That being said, he is great at football and will hopefully make it at Dortmund.
That's a problem for Dortmund to answer and check.I would have thought that they would have done their due diligence.

The part about an 18 year old girlfriend is not something I've heard about
 

In Rainbows

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Because it's a pattern that I've seen for the last 20/30 years, and I find it fecking offensive that just because a black kid dominates his age group, and he happens to be physically imposing; he's lying about his age.

My son's Under 11s played a team this year and the opposition had a kid of Nigerian descent who was literally head and shoulders above all the kids. Good job, strength apart, he actually wasn't very good or we would have protested and demanded to see his birth certificate :rolleyes:
So in your opinion, someone lying about their age is impossible and there is no record of this ever happening in football?

And let me get this straight, you think it's because someone is black is dominating his age group? Funny, and here I thought Ethan Laird was athletic for his age, yet was never questioned. Gravenberch, who was athletic was never questioned. Numerous black players have dominated their age groups and were never questioned. You think it's impossible for someone to look older than their age and it being specific to this 1 person?
 

Inigo Montoya

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So in your opinion, someone lying about their age is impossible and there is no record of this ever happening in football?

And let me get this straight, you think it's because someone is black is dominating his age group? You think it's impossible for someone to look older than their age and it being specific to this 1 person?
I didn't say it was impossible, it's a case that it only ever comes up when it's a Black African kid playing football. Whether he's lying is a problem for BD because if true it's the club that risks being kicked out of competitions. Is it worth it to win a few meaningless games at the end of the day?

I don't quite get the second point you're trying to infer. Some being physically larger and dominating their age group is nothing unusual, but to then question their age credentials simply because of that is frankly, racial stereotyping.
 

Acrobat7

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That's a problem for Dortmund to answer and check.I would have thought that they would have done their due diligence.

The part about an 18 year old girlfriend is not something I've heard about
I linked the article in this thread some posts up.
 

Rozay

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So in your opinion, someone lying about their age is impossible and there is no record of this ever happening in football?

And let me get this straight, you think it's because someone is black is dominating his age group? Funny, and here I thought Ethan Laird was athletic for his age, yet was never questioned. Gravenberch, who was athletic was never questioned. Numerous black players have dominated their age groups and were never questioned. You think it's impossible for someone to look older than their age and it being specific to this 1 person?
Perhaps those players would be questioned if they were not born in Europe.

I think people should go and visit Africa. They will likely be stunned. Africa in 2004 has birth certificates. A player who has been playing in European academies since 9 would surely be traceable. Unless he was really 15 or something when he was claiming to be 9. And if he were really 11 or 12, what exactly would the point be? He’d still be a minor anyway, and still far better than all the other 12 year olds, he wouldn’t be some sort of 16/17 year old claiming to be 9.
 

Inigo Montoya

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I still think he's older than he says he is. At the MTU cup in 2016, he's supposed to be 12 years old, who looks the same age as his 13-14 year old teammates. I think he's a year older or so, which is still impressive. It would put him with Greenwood in terms of goal scoring.
You're blind if you can look at him and think there's not something off about some kid claiming to be the same age as his teammates while playing up age groups. Compare him in 2016 to Greenwood, Laird, Garner, and Williams. And Laird is pretty big for his age. The fact that he doesn't look out of place compared to them yet is supposed to be 3 years younger should tell you something.
That was my point. It's still impressive what he's doing. Even if he is lying about his age (we don't know, but I think he is), he has an impressive goal scoring record regardless. So he's still a top prospect.
I only put 13 year olds in order to give him some leniency and make my remark a little more conservative. It's a competition for 14 year olds, and it's rare for 13 year olds to compete. Greenwood looked very small at 13. He was 12 years old and looked like a 14-15 year old.

Here is him at age 12 (almost 13) in 2017.


Here is the 2001 group at United in 2016 (aged 15). So 2 years older yet he doesn't look out of place.



It has nothing to do with being African. There are plenty of 2nd generation African English players and none look as old as he does at that age. He doesn't look out of place, and then you realize he's much younger. Especially when you can get a glimpse of all the 2nd generation African European players in these indoor tournaments where clubs from all of Europe compete at. So it has nothing to do with that unless you think he's the only African (2nd/3rd/1st generation) in Europe.
There's nothing but pure conjecture in all these posts. It's bloody ridiculous
 

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I didn't say it was impossible, it's a case that it only ever comes up when it's a Black African kid playing football. Whether he's lying is a problem for BD because if true it's the club that risks being kicked out of competitions. Is it worth it to win a few meaningless games at the end of the day?

I don't quite get the second point you're trying to infer. Some being physically larger and dominating their age group is nothing unusual, but to then question their age credentials simply because of that is frankly, racial stereotyping.
I generally agree with you. Every African youngster playing in a European youth team gets confronted with such allegations regardless if there's any indication let alone evidence. Especially people who didn't even bother to inform themselves about the circumstances like doing that and that is frustrating.

But personally, I am still not sure about his age. I don't think his build or looks strongly suggest that he's older. You could also see that he's grown quite much since his early Dortmund days so even if he is older, it can't be more than 2 or 3 years which would mean he's still currently playing among older footballers. But honestly, the fact that he was dating an 18 year old aged 12 (and apparently was still dating her 2 years later) is highly suspicious to say the least. Didn't know that before, but this got me thinking.
 

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I didn't say it was impossible, it's a case that it only ever comes up when it's a Black African kid playing football. Whether he's lying is a problem for BD because if true it's the club that risks being kicked out of competitions. Is it worth it to win a few meaningless games at the end of the day?

I don't quite get the second point you're trying to infer. Some being physically larger and dominating their age group is nothing unusual, but to then question their age credentials simply because of that is frankly, racial stereotyping.
No, because plenty of black players dominate physically and they're never questioned over their age. Because they look their age. This is an isolated case because he does in fact look older. It has nothing to do with being African, or black. Most youth sides have black kids and 2nd generation African players. None of them look as old as he does from what I've seen.

And why would you not question it if not only does he look older than all of his peers (specific to this 1 person), but he's dominating at a level against much older kids at the same time? He was competing at u19 level as a 14 year old. Nobody questioned Ansu Fati, who also won player of the tournament at a young age like Unuvar. They didn't look older. If Ethan Laird dominated I wouldn't question him despite him being physically impressive. Neither would I question Traore if he was actually great. Because they didn't look 15 as a 12 year old (not that I saw Traore as a 12 year old). Nobody does, but this kid in comparison to all the kids competing.

You're trying to infer something nefarious for understandable reasons in the past, but I don't see how this is a case of this unless it's completely impossible for this to ever occur. We know this is not the case. I don't think Black or African players look much older and that it's some trait that is specific to their genes. When they're kids, they look like kids. Hence why I don't question them apart from this 1 isolated case.

I could be wrong. However, I don't feel like I'm out of line for speculating on just 1 person of which this is only applicable to. I've had this suspicion (when I was 16 a long time ago) with another kid in my local area, who is not black or African. Hard not to when he had a beard as an 11 year old.

There's nothing but pure conjecture in all these posts. It's bloody ridiculous
Of course. I never denied that. I literally said it's speculation.

edit: Actually I didn't literally say speculation.


I didn't communicate my argument clear enough so let's have that discussion. It is because he came from Africa that I'm speculating on his age. No, not because Africans look older. I don't believe they do. I believe kids look like kids regardless of where they're born. It's the combination of him coming from an area that could be susceptible to these kind of things, and his individual face. You probably don't watch baseball, but it happens in that sport too. Rafael Furcal is somebody who lied, although in his case, it had nothing to do with his face as I didn't follow him until he made his debut.

This is why I asked the question, do you think it's impossible for this type of thing to occur? I know I asked it because it's impossible to answer no as it is entirely possible for this to occur. It's happened many times in many sports. I felt like you tried to insinuate that it was due to him being African over his African features, which is BS. I don't believe Africans look inherently older. I don't believe my speculation was based on his African features.

So I would like to ask you another question. Do you think it's inherently racist or bigoted to speculate anybody's age based on their face? And if it is in your eyes, is it even possible to ever question their age in a legitimate way? How would you speculate if not through their face? Which then loops back to the original question. Is it impossible for this type of thing to occur making this entire process a false endeavor?
 
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JulesWinnfield

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I find him a strange one, even on his highlight videos which make most people look like superstars he doesn't really look THAT good, obviously he has talent but his technique for example doesn't seem remotely close to the level of the Sancho's and Greenwood's when they were at that level. He's still obviously a decent dribbler and such but not to the level of those kind of guys. But on the other hand there's no denying his ridiculous goalscoring record.

But goalscoring records at youth levels are always pretty sketchy in how those kind of players scale up. I tend to think other things about a players game are far more telling about a players ability to scale up successfully. Even if goalscoring gets all the attention.
 

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Haaland on Moukoko: "He's much better than I was at the age of 15. He's training with Borussia Dortmund and he's keeping up. I don't think that I've ever seen a 15 year old that good"


And a nice goal:
 

cyberman

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In all of Haalands years. Thats a massive pool to come out on top of..
 

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Haaland on Moukoko: "He's much better than I was at the age of 15. He's training with Borussia Dortmund and he's keeping up. I don't think that I've ever seen a 15 year old that good"


And a nice goal:
What a humble young man he is. :smirk:
 

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This season so far in U19 Bundesliga and the Junioren-DFB-Pokal: 3 games, 3 hattricks. One of which in a derby win at Schalke. The kid is ridiculous :lol:

Will be interesting to see whether he gets minutes already this season, once he's turned 16 in November.
 

limerickcitykid

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This season so far in U19 Bundesliga and the Junioren-DFB-Pokal: 3 games, 3 hattricks. One of which in a derby win at Schalke. The kid is ridiculous :lol:

Will be interesting to see whether he gets minutes already this season, once he's turned 16 in November.
He’s been training with the first team for a year and they’ve tried to request permission to play him before he’s 16. He’s guaranteed to be straight in there once he hits 16.

Was also racially abused during that Schalke match.
 

LVGSdive

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They can sell Haaland for a huge fee and here is his replacement already.
 
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Haaland on Moukoko: "He's much better than I was at the age of 15. He's training with Borussia Dortmund and he's keeping up. I don't think that I've ever seen a 15 year old that good"


And a nice goal:
God Haaland has such a punchable face. I can't look directly at him.