I feel these are the types of signings we need to make nowadays (not necessarily him). Young players who showed some talent in the PL who don't cost a bomb yet (like Rice)
Yves Bissouma / Signs for Spurs
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I just think Rice is more of a complete package
He is also two-three years younger meaning he would, everything else equal, justify a higher fee.
Is there any reliable sources at all linking us to him?
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It's an old article which last month but I'm surprised how we haven't been linked with him much if he can be available for around 40m-50m. He's a hybrid one like Fred & McT means he should meet the same criteria to play in Ole's double pivot, but instead, we are linked with someone who is also a hybrid one like Arambarri who is less proven in PL, a year older, and obviously playing in team that doesn't attack.
Fred seems to be miles better than Arambari except for the aerial duel. While Bissouma seems to be better in overall defensive aspect, less giving the possession away, and makes most take-on than Fred. Fred is only better in his forward passes attempted but that's because he plays in a team that plays direct, forward, and give the ball to Bruno most of the time and I think you will expect Bissouma's forward passes increase if he plays with us.
I think if you watch Bissouma, he's basically Fred but better in duel and very good in press resistance/ball retention, which something people have moaned about Fred.
I do wonder if Utd scouts see him too similar to Fred and that's the reason for a lack of interestTweet
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It's an old article which last month but I'm surprised how we haven't been linked with him much if he can be available for around 40m-50m. He's a hybrid one like Fred & McT means he should meet the same criteria to play in Ole's double pivot, but instead, we are linked with someone who is also a hybrid one like Arambarri who is less proven in PL, a year older, and obviously playing in team that doesn't attack.
Fred seems to be miles better than Arambari except for the aerial duel. While Bissouma seems to be better in overall defensive aspect, less giving the possession away, and makes most take-on than Fred. Fred is only better in his forward passes attempted but that's because he plays in a team that plays direct, forward, and give the ball to Bruno most of the time and I think you will expect Bissouma's forward passes increase if he plays with us.
I think if you watch Bissouma, he's basically Fred but better in duel and very good in press resistance/ball retention, which something people have moaned about Fred.
But that's strange because Arambarri is more similar to Fred and could be worse as he's not very good in keeping possession and poor in his passing accuracy. Fred's weakness is he's sloppy on possession when under pressure while Bissouma is the opposite. Bissouma is defensively like Fred, better in aerial duel, and more comfortable on the ball when under pressure than Fred, I'm not sure why we want Arambarri who has Fred's weakness instead of Bissouma.
Not even a single source worth mentioning has Linked us with Arambarri so I am not sure that why we want Arambarri is the right question to be asked as of now , I am more in the camp of wait and watch before questioning Clubs ambition and competence.
Will give you that is a valid point but it's worrying that no one outside of Rice seems to be talked about in that position and even those links aren't particularly strong either, just makes me wonder what is going on in the heads of our scouts to not think there is a big issue in that area of the team
I am quite concerned to be honest we need to completely revamp our midfield ideally we need to bring couple of starters of real quality ,if it's up to me I would even sell Pogba to make that happen as Solskjaer doesn't trust him in Midfield two and Midfield three isn't an option due to Fernandes .
God knows what's the plan with Van de Beek either but to be fair he has been underwhelming can't really blame Solskjaer for him.
The scouts can't sign anyone, it's up to the manager at first team level to select the areas in the team for improvement. I'm also not sure why there's people who don't seem to understand that. It's also been reported that Solskjaer will only look to sign a midfielder if Pogba departs.
We definitely need an upgrade in this area. Fred’s passing has regressed this season and our ability to beat the press is key to the way we play. We need a player with Fred’s energy and ability to turn the ball over but with greater success at playing out under pressure.
I’ve not seen enough of Bissouma to know whether he fits the bill or not but seems a realistic target.
I think what we’re all crying out for is a midfielder that allows Bruno and Pogba to play together in a 4-3-3 week in week out. I’m not sure such a player exists and we may always have to adapt against the top sides. Regardless, an upgrade on Fred or McTom would make a real difference to this team.
I’ve not seen enough of Bissouma to know whether he fits the bill or not but seems a realistic target.
I think what we’re all crying out for is a midfielder that allows Bruno and Pogba to play together in a 4-3-3 week in week out. I’m not sure such a player exists and we may always have to adapt against the top sides. Regardless, an upgrade on Fred or McTom would make a real difference to this team.
I like him, but you're being a little disingenuous in parts here. Fred, as you say, has better pass accuracy while playing around 35% more passes a game. That's a considerable difference. It stands to reason that if a player is on the ball more often, then he's going to lose the ball more often, too. He's also created twice as many chances this season, which suggests his passing is more adventurous. That's not to say he wouldn't end up being better than Fred if he joined, but if we make the case purely on stats, then they don't quite stack up, not yet.Tweet
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It's an old article which last month but I'm surprised how we haven't been linked with him much if he can be available for around 40m-50m. He's a hybrid one like Fred & McT means he should meet the same criteria to play in Ole's double pivot, but instead, we are linked with someone who is also a hybrid one like Arambarri who is less proven in PL, a year older, and obviously playing in team that doesn't attack.
Fred seems to be miles better than Arambari except for the aerial duel. While Bissouma seems to be better in overall defensive aspect, less giving the possession away, and makes most take-on than Fred. Fred is only better in his forward passes attempted but that's because he plays in a team that plays direct, forward, and give the ball to Bruno most of the time and I think you will expect Bissouma's forward passes increase if he plays with us.
I think if you watch Bissouma, he's basically Fred but better in duel and very good in press resistance/ball retention, which something people have moaned about Fred.
I don't think you fully read my post.
Because, I mentioned this: I think if you watch Bissouma, he's basically Fred but better in duel and very good in press resistance/ball retention, which something people have moaned about Fred. Thus, I also judge both players based on eye test.
I also sums up that the stats doesn't tell the whole story, so I added a note that Bissouma would look more adventurous if he plays at United since United plays more direct and their aim is to play the ball to Bruno rather than to wingback like Brighton.
The key here is that Bissouma is at least about as good as Fred defensively but better in his press resistance/ball retention than Fred which something we want for improvement in our midfield when they are being pressed and in additional Bissouma would look more adventurous if he plays under Ole's system.
He'd make a great squad addition, a very decent replacement for Matic in the squad and would allow rotation of the Fred/Mctominay midfield without losing the defensive steel. I think it'd be a great move.
Come on. I read it, which is why I know you left out the stats that contradicted your position, and included only those that support it. The only area you claim Fred is marginally better in (although as demonstrated there are plenty) you put down as a result of playing in a better team.
Hence why I said you were being a little disingenuous with the stats you've provided.
Yes, that’s why I mentioned if Bissouma plays in Manchester United, he will look more adventurous as his forward passes will be improved. Is that wrong?
No idea if it's wrong. Am I wrong to say it's a little disingenuous when you disregard stats that contradict your statement, but lean on those that do? Particularly when we plainly see there are areas that Fred is a good deal better on statistically, even though you said the only area he's better in is with % of forward passes.
Again, not saying he wouldn't be an important.
Yes you are wrong because the stats don’t show Fred to be better in overall defensive aspect than Bissouma. And the stats only show forward passes attempted, not enough bigger picture. Thus why I added two comments afterwards.
That's not at all what I asked.
It doesn't show Bissouma to be better than Fred in all aspects apart from forwarding passing either, which was the 'only' area you claim Fred to be better in. You also claimed Bissouma to be better at retaining the ball but deliberately excluded stats that show Fred has considerably more of the ball and will therefore face far more opportunity to be dispossessed or to give the ball away, hence my original response that your selective data is a little disingenuous.
Besides, when you drill down you see Fred touches the ball area 20 more times in a game. He plays around 35% more passes and creates twice as many chances for his team. He loses the ball on average about 2 more times in a game. In terms of ball retention I'd say they are quite similar but it's difficult to truly. Watching them both play I'd say that's about right, it's just when Fred gets it wrong, he gets it wrrooong.
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Once again, I don’t think you fully read my original post. Because if you do, you will understand why I only mentioned Fred is being better in his forward passes.
So let me repeat this again: Bissouma seems to be better in overall defensive aspect, less giving the possession away, and makes most take-on than Fred. Which one you disagree?
That’s why I added two comments because the stats lacks information to judge player’s forward passes and press resistance so I also judge them based on eye test. What’s wrong with the two of my comments?
So you won't respond to what I asked, and will just skim by. Ok.
Once again, I did read it, hence why I was able to come to this conclusion. When you use stats to support empirical evidence, and you cherry pick only the stats that support it and not those that challenge it, you're being disingenuous. Doesn't mean your overarching point is right or wrong. Ultimately, if you come to a conclusion beyond metrics then it's an opinion. Saying a player is more press resistant based on dispossessed stats when we know that a.) the stats show he does less with the ball b.) he passes the ball forward less c.) makes less passes d.) his pass accuracy is less and e.) he touches the ball less, that's being a tad disingenuous.
The reason why you mentioned Fred's forward passes is because you thought there was a mitigating reason for him to be ahead there, that's not to say there isn't. However, the ONLY way you could argue it's inclusion in that paragraph is correct is because you think forward passes are a part of 'defensive aspect,' which would make even less sense. Perhaps you might want to read what you wrote again, or at least try to explain why you wrote it the way you did, instead of just referring back to it. You keep asking what's 'wrong' with your statements, while ignoring the actual point I was making: that the stats you used to support PART of your statement are SELECTIVE, and when you look at the stats AS A WHOLE it paints a different picture. I didn't at any point disagree with the conclusion you came to with the 'eye test.'
I could make a post that said Fred is more press resilient and only include fouls won, pass %, touches and pass accuracy. I could then say he is better defensively by only including ball recoveries, and then say I've confirmed that by watching the games and it would be just as disingenuous of me. Do you see?
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Come on mate, you didn't specify what you asked before this post so I can't give a respond, thus why I asked ''which one you disagree''.
Did I tell you to agree with it? I don't think so. Thus, why my point stands based on both stats and from what I watched. It's your job to prove them that they are wrong and so far you didn't prove anything wrong.
Touches the ball less, pass the ball forward less, 0.49 less passing accuracy are not a fair comparison to judge two players from team that plays relegation zone and top teams. Top teams tend to have so much more on the ball than the relegation teams, this is really depending on playing style. Thus, why I didn't put any comment on Bissouma's playmaking style. I cannot judge other aspects that relies so much on his team mates. But I can judge other aspects that relies more on individual ability.
That makes no sense because I never say Bissouma is better in press resistance based on stats, I said it based on what I watched, I couldn't judge it based on stats since the stats provided lacks of information for that particular aspect and I told you this already. Do you see why I keep telling you to read?
Not every aspects you can judge it based on stats, thus why I add two additional comments.
Of course I did. It was stated clearly in the prior post. You must've read it in order to respond to it.Come on mate, you didn't specify what you asked before this post so I can't give a respond, thus why I asked ''which one you disagree''.
Did I tell you to agree with it? I don't think so. Thus, why my point stands based on both stats and from what I watched. It's your job to prove them that they are wrong and so far you didn't prove anything wrong.
Touches the ball less, pass the ball forward less, 0.49 less passing accuracy are not a fair comparison to judge two players from team that plays relegation zone and top teams. Top teams tend to have so much more on the ball than the relegation teams, this is really depending on playing style. Thus, why I didn't put any comment on Bissouma's playmaking style. I cannot judge other aspects that relies so much on his team mates. But I can judge other aspects that relies more on individual ability.
That makes no sense because I never say Bissouma is better in press resistance based on stats, I said it based on what I watched, I couldn't judge it based on stats since the stats provided lacks of information for that particular aspect and I told you this already. Do you see why I keep telling you to read?
Not every aspects you can judge it based on stats, thus why I add two additional comments.
Pretty sure I already did when I listed the 5 stats that you didn't include in your original comparison that shows, at least statistically, he isn't more press resistant right now. If you want me to 'prove you wrong' based on what you saw, then I don't need to explain why that's unreasonable. It's subjective. It'd be like asking me to prove blue is a better colour than green.
Wait wait. So it's unfair to use those stats when comparing two different players in two different teams, but the stats you've selected are absolutely fine... I don't think I need to point out the inconsistencies here.
As for the bolded, you said, 'While Bissouma seems to be better in overall defensive aspect, less giving the possession away, and makes most take-on than Fred.' You've literally included it in a sentence where you reference the stats comparisons you posted!!! This is why I told you to reread what you wrote. In fact you didn't even mentioning 'watching' until your final paragraph. It's very clear that you were using the stats you had posted. So no, let's not try to amend it retrospectively.
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Fred is a much better fit for us than Bissouma and it’s not even that close but Fred is at his peak. Bissouma could easily improve in a better team and he’s probably a better option than McT currently.
Come on mate, you think you can play dumb with me.Of course I did. It was stated clearly in the prior post. You must've read it in order to respond to it.
Pretty sure I already did when I listed the 5 stats that you didn't include in your original comparison that shows, at least statistically, he isn't more press resistant right now. If you want me to 'prove you wrong' based on what you saw, then I don't need to explain why that's unreasonable. It's subjective. It'd be like asking me to prove blue is a better colour than green.
Wait wait. So it's unfair to use those stats when comparing two different players in two different teams, but the stats you've selected are absolutely fine... I don't think I need to point out the inconsistencies here.
As for the bolded, you said, 'While Bissouma seems to be better in overall defensive aspect, less giving the possession away, and makes most take-on than Fred.' You've literally included it in a sentence where you reference the stats comparisons you posted!!! This is why I told you to reread what you wrote. In fact you didn't even mentioning 'watching' until your final paragraph. It's very clear that you were using the stats you had posted. So no, let's not try to amend it retrospectively.
You only just listed them specifically in the previous post before this one, that's why I only just responded it.I never want you to prove it wrong, you are the one who wants to challenge it so it's your job to do it.
Of course! Not every aspects you can judge it based on stats. For instance, to have more successful % win ground & tackle duel, that shows his defensive ability to win them cleanly, it has less factors on team mate's involvement. While number of touches, passes, and etc that you listed have more factors on team mate's involvement and the team itself, thus why it's difficult to use them based on individual ability. This is where the inconsistency of using all the stats alone, you also need consider many factors.
Where did I say ''better in press resistance'' or ''ball retention'' for the bolded? I keep telling never ignore the additional two comments, but you don't listen.
Do you see now why it's very important not to ignore those 2 comments and why we can only judge players based on certain aspects using stats?
It's what you wrote, not me. And you're accusing me of playing dumb?Come on mate, you think you can play dumb with me.
I never want you to prove it wrong, you are the one who wants to challenge it so it's your job to do it.
Of course! Not every aspects you can judge it based on stats. For instance, to have more successful % win ground & tackle duel, that shows his defensive ability to win them cleanly, it has less factors on team mate's involvement. While number of touches, passes, and etc that you listed have more factors on team mate's involvement and the team itself, thus why it's difficult to use them based on individual ability. This is where the inconsistency of using all the stats alone, you also need consider many factors.
Where did I say ''better in press resistance'' or ''ball retention'' for the bolded? I keep telling never ignore the additional two comments, but you don't listen.
Do you see now why it's very important not to ignore those 2 comments and why we can only judge players based on certain aspects using stats?
You've tried to play on drawing your comparison by the eye test, even though those very things were included in a sentence you were talking about stats. You CLEARLY drew your conclusion based on those stats, otherwise you wouldn't have worded it that way. I'm sorry but you're not worming your way out of this one. I've literally quoted your exact words. You have no come back.You can't prove an opinion wrong. So no, it isn't my 'job' to do so. I merely pointed out your blatant disregard of a multitude of stats that contradict what you've said. You know this, which is why you're pushing this weird 'prove me wrong' line. Again, no dice.
You can keep saying it all night if you like. Your selected stats aren't anymore illuminating just because they favour you. You know this.
And I keeping tell you, and I giving you actual quotes, stating you were disingenuous in ignoring unfavourable stats. Your last two comments have sod all to do with that.
I find it baffling that I've quoted you, caught you with your pants down, and you're pretending the gentle breeze that's blowing between your legs doesn't exist.
I'm done. As far as I'm concerned it's over. Evening!
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I accused you playing dumb for failing to specified those 5 things earlier prior the post when your said ''you won't respond to what I asked'' not about what I wrote. Why are you having problem with reading? So many miscommunication with you.It's what you wrote, not me. And you're accusing me of playing dumb?
You can't prove an opinion wrong. So no, it isn't my 'job' to do so. I merely pointed out your blatant disregard of a multitude of stats that contradict what you've said. You know this, which is why you're pushing this weird 'prove me wrong' line. Again, no dice.
Opinion can consist error and bias. So of course you can prove it wrong if you have evidence.
Well, you need to tell me why those 5 stats you listed have less factors on team mate's involvement and the team itself and should be used to judge on player's ability.You can keep saying it all night if you like. Your selected stats aren't anymore illuminating just because they favour you. You know this.
And I keeping tell you, and I giving you actual quotes, stating you were disingenuous in ignoring unfavourable stats. Your last two comments have sod all to do with that.
I find it baffling that I've quoted you, caught you with your pants down, and you're pretending the gentle breeze that's blowing between your legs doesn't exist.
I didn't say ''better in press resistance'' or ''ball retention'' in that bolded quote. Prove it and make it as big as you can so we can see it, come on!
Good Evening.
Ok. One more for the road.I accused you playing dumb for failing to specified those 5 things earlier prior the post when your said ''you won't respond to what I asked'' not about what I wrote. Why are you having problem with reading? So many miscommunication with you.
Opinion can consist error and bias. So of course you can prove it wrong if you have evidence.
Well, you need to tell me why those 5 stats you listed have less factors on team mate's involvement and the team itself and should be used to judge on player's ability.
I didn't say ''better in press resistance'' or ''ball retention'' in that bolded quote. Prove it and make it as big as you can so we can see it, come on!
Good Evening.
In my INITIAL reply I said there were stats you hadn't included. Now you had created your own list so you knew of their existence. If by some miracle you weren't aware of them, then you could've asked. Bringing it up now as a reason why you chose to ignore it, despite it being the entire premise of my original post, doesn't float.
No I don't. I don't feel any of them are more heavily weighted. I didn't decide that those 5 stats weren't worthy of mention
and the one stat that supported your bias was. I haven't cherry picked stats. You have and therefore the justification lies with you and not me. You know that.
You really need to read the bolded part again. I mentioned press resistance as an example of how I could use stats to make certain claims about Fred. It was an example. You've got yourself in a right tangle.
You've managed to successfully digress the conversation from my original point anyway. The stats you provided were purposely weighted to support your bias. If you included all stats, even if we accept that passing accuracy and amounts of touches, passes etc play less part in individual examination, they still would still play some. And your decision to ignore those 5 stats in favour of 1 to aide in you coming to a conclusion is disingenuous. That's undeniable at this point.
You haven't told me anything whatsoever about the eye test. Indeed, I would have no possible way of knowing what you've seen. So explain to me how I'm supposed to highlight error in something you've uniquely seen. It's preposterous and you now it. As the late great Christopher Hitchens said, 'That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.'
A CH quote seems a lovely way to end it proper for me. Ciao!
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I would agree with that.
I think the only midfielders that will be coming into the side next season will be Garner and Mejbri and that will be with 15-20 minute cameos in league games and more in domestic competitions.
I have justified it to you why I didn't pick them. Since you are not accepting my reasons then you need to tell me why those 5 stats you listed have less factors on team mate's involvement and the team itself and should be used to judge on player's ability.
When I mentioned the part you bolded, it was meant to counter what you mentioned about your example how you could use selected stats randomly to confirm bias. Because what I mentioned wasn't random like your examples are, that's why I use ''press resistance'' as example that I can't just use random stats to judge the press resistance since it lacks information on the stats but for other aspect like the overall defensive aspect, I could do it because there is enough information to judge it.
Let me give you more detail example, when I judge the overall defensive aspect, I ratio their comparison on ball recoveries, interceptions, clearances, ground duel success, aerial duel success, tackle made & ball recoveries. You will get result in small ratio (1.1) for the ground duel success, ball recoveries, tackle made and interception. But you will get much higher ratio that Bissouma is 1.6 and more than 2 times higher/better than Fred for aerial duel success and clearances. Thus, if you combine all of the analysis, based on only stats, you can say that Bissouma is just better in overall defensive aspect. It's not very difficult to understand what ''overall'' means isn't it.
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I think we could get someone like Moriba from Barca for a fairly solid price given their finances. He looks like he could play box to box to a very high standard in the future and I think he would probably cost a bit less than Bissouma too. Camavinga is another option in around the same price point.
The Times are reporting that be wants out and will be available for £30m. Brighton manager, Graham Potter has also said that at 24 years old, it's the right time for Bissouma to move to a bigger club. His contract only has two years to run.
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IMO, he will suit our style better than Rice might. I think he can partner both McFred well so that we can have solid rotation solution in midfield to handle the congested match schedule next season.
I'd definitely rather this guy for £30m than Rice for £80m or whatever it is
I'll be annoyed if we spunk that much on Rice, but don't think we will
I'll be annoyed if we spunk that much on Rice, but don't think we will
I always got more of a Carrick vibe from him than Fred. He's not really an all action run up and down the pitch type of midfielder. I think if you expand to include stats on pressures per 90 etc. you might see the same.I think if you watch Bissouma, he's basically Fred but better in duel and very good in press resistance/ball retention, which something people have moaned about Fred.
EDIT Ctrl F for "pressures" https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...id3=1c7012b8&p3yrfrom=2020-2021#defense_stats
If we can get him for £30M then we should definitely be in for him. Not sure if he is an upgrade on Fred or not, but from this season you can tell we needed 1 more to stop Fred being run into the ground and we were always 1 injury away from a Matic twice a week requirement. I think 2021/22 will be a season when fatigue catches up on a lot of squads.
Would be an excellent signing, and at a great price considering we will likely spend big on Sancho and a CB. Can see him going to Liverpool though, they love those slightly underrated players who are analytical gems.
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