I get the sense that if it went in Barca would simply up their game. Pretty amazing performance. They only looked shaky when they went defensive.
The Decline of FC Barcelona?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
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The numbers are misleading though. I think last season was our 3rd or 4th best league season ever points-wise, yet at the same time we witnessed one of the most embarrassing end-of-season collapses in our history. It clearly wasn't a brilliant team like the numbers suggest and likewise this year's Barcelona really haven't been performing at the level they were at in Guardiola's first season, IMO. Villa has never really settled in, Pedro's been rubbish compared to his breakthrough season, Sánchez has generally been rubbish, Alves is a long way off his best, Xavi's a long way off the form that saw him hit over 25 assists in a season, Valdes has looked a little distracted and has already conceded more league goals this season than in the previous 3...it's not just one or two results or one or two players. In that 08/09 team every player was playing very well, their "weak" links then were Pique and Valdes - they're pretty much at the same level now but they've got a couple more players at that level. Henry got over 25 goals, Eto'o over 30 and Messi over 35, this year they'll be doing well to have two players with 20+. They're conceding more goals because Puyol and Alves are getting on a bit while Alba is simply a worse defender than Abidal. In midfield there's not really much to it, Busquets has improved and Iniesta's taking his game up a notch while Xavi's beginning to slow down. They're likely to end up scoring less and conceding more than 08/09 while looking less fluid and having more notable feckups along the way...I don't see why using the word decline in that context is in any way inappropriate.
They're on track for winning the CL? So when they don't win the CL can we get back to talking about them being in a decline? Sweet.
They haven't been as good this season as during Guardiola's first 3 seasons, but there's still time for that to change. If they coast in the league and win the CL again then it would be difficult to say they're in decline.
Collectively, I think what was clear last night was that their pressing was working well again, which it hadn't during their recent slump. When they get that right, it takes a lot of pressure off them because they don't have to create every single goal when the opponent has 10 men behind the ball.
Individually, as some have pointed out, some of their players have inevitably declined (Xavi and Puyol mainly, maybe Valdes), some have improved if anything (Messi, Iniesta, Busquets), and others have basically been replaced by different versions. I agree that Villa (though very good) is no Henry or Eto'o, but Jordi Alba is a fantastic left-back. Ok he doesn't have the physique or the defensive instincts of Abidal (who was more of a third centre-half), but he's a monster going forwards, and unlike Alves he actually tracks back every time.
As for the trend, Barça are obviously trying to slowly replace some of their ageing players, with varying success. Valdes might be gone this summer, in which case we'll see whether they can bring in a top keeper. Fabregas is clearly on course for taking over the Xavi role, and though he's a different player, it's difficult to argue that's a downgrade. The two positions where I think they might strengthen this summer are at centre-half and up front, particularly if Villa leaves too. It's always tricky to transition smoothly when you have players of the calibre we're talking about here who are ageing or leaving, but I also can't see it simply as a monotonic decline.
Collectively, I think what was clear last night was that their pressing was working well again, which it hadn't during their recent slump. When they get that right, it takes a lot of pressure off them because they don't have to create every single goal when the opponent has 10 men behind the ball.
Individually, as some have pointed out, some of their players have inevitably declined (Xavi and Puyol mainly, maybe Valdes), some have improved if anything (Messi, Iniesta, Busquets), and others have basically been replaced by different versions. I agree that Villa (though very good) is no Henry or Eto'o, but Jordi Alba is a fantastic left-back. Ok he doesn't have the physique or the defensive instincts of Abidal (who was more of a third centre-half), but he's a monster going forwards, and unlike Alves he actually tracks back every time.
As for the trend, Barça are obviously trying to slowly replace some of their ageing players, with varying success. Valdes might be gone this summer, in which case we'll see whether they can bring in a top keeper. Fabregas is clearly on course for taking over the Xavi role, and though he's a different player, it's difficult to argue that's a downgrade. The two positions where I think they might strengthen this summer are at centre-half and up front, particularly if Villa leaves too. It's always tricky to transition smoothly when you have players of the calibre we're talking about here who are ageing or leaving, but I also can't see it simply as a monotonic decline.
United wiped the floor with a stronger Milan side in 09/10, yet some how beating this Milan side 4-0 with those players somehow means something miraculous and that they're back to their best. Yes that same Milan side beat them in the first leg, but Barcelona also lost to Celtic. Home ties do wonderful things for weaker home teams (as long as dumb feck ref's don't send players off for no legit reason).
I dont agree at all that Alba is a worse defender than Abidal. Like with Alves, he can defend. But in Barcelona's system they tend to be too far up the pitch to get on with it. Alba showed he was a very good defender at Valencia and for Spain and I recall watching the one game, ever, where Alves played for Barcelona and only defended in a match against Valencia. Until that point I didnt realise he can actually defend really well, but for that match he actually tried and was probably their best player on the day.
Alba's the best full back in the world, for me.
For those who argue that they aren't in decline, how do you see them being in the next 3-5 years? Obviously not as good as right now should be the answer, because Xavi will probably be gone, Iniesta in his 30s. Just those two right there deteriorating would be a sharp decrease in their overall quality, no matter who they bring in. Xavi has been the best midfielder in the world for the last 5 years probably, so of course they will begin to go into decline once he nears the end of his career. Its not something preposterous to say at all.
They definitely won't get any better in the next few years, with nobody out there able to replace a player like Xavi, so that means, by definition, that they are in decline, doesn't it? Fabregas, as good as he is, is not in Xavi's class for the role they play. He's much more direct then Xavi and that doesn't really suit Barca if they want Fabregas to replace Xavi. Fabregas would be much better suited to replace Iniesta IMO.
Winning the league, which they will do this year, and Champions league (nowhere near guaranteed) won't change any of the facts that Xavi is getting older, and even now he's visibly lost a little. As Brwned said, even though they are the best team around, they are still in decline. They were by far the best team around, maybe even the best ever between 09-11, and it will obviously take a bit of declining on their part to get down to the level of the other top teams around Europe. Right now you can't say they are as dominant as they were a few years back. Bayern is looking every bit their equal this season, and even though Madrid is way behind in the league, you can't say that they are way behind in quality, as we saw in the Classico's this season, and even last season. Barca have only won 1 of the past 5 league games against them and 1 of the past 5 cup games against them (not including the supercopa, as that is a glorified friendly).
They definitely won't get any better in the next few years, with nobody out there able to replace a player like Xavi, so that means, by definition, that they are in decline, doesn't it? Fabregas, as good as he is, is not in Xavi's class for the role they play. He's much more direct then Xavi and that doesn't really suit Barca if they want Fabregas to replace Xavi. Fabregas would be much better suited to replace Iniesta IMO.
Winning the league, which they will do this year, and Champions league (nowhere near guaranteed) won't change any of the facts that Xavi is getting older, and even now he's visibly lost a little. As Brwned said, even though they are the best team around, they are still in decline. They were by far the best team around, maybe even the best ever between 09-11, and it will obviously take a bit of declining on their part to get down to the level of the other top teams around Europe. Right now you can't say they are as dominant as they were a few years back. Bayern is looking every bit their equal this season, and even though Madrid is way behind in the league, you can't say that they are way behind in quality, as we saw in the Classico's this season, and even last season. Barca have only won 1 of the past 5 league games against them and 1 of the past 5 cup games against them (not including the supercopa, as that is a glorified friendly).
They haven't been as good as they were in the last few years. Their defence has been frankly average and besides Messi and none of their attacking players haven't played consistently well. They absolutely need new blood in defense and another star attacker who can share the goalscoring burden.
People who haven't seen them play this season and are basing everything on stats and no are the only ones who will say that their general level of play hasn't decreased this season.
People who haven't seen them play this season and are basing everything on stats and no are the only ones who will say that their general level of play hasn't decreased this season.
Has it occurred to anyone that Barcelona could actually IMPROVE over the next 2-3 seasons? Scary to imagine, but it's quite possible.
The club has a pipeline of young talent like nothing else on the planet. Maybe there will never be another Iniesta, but does anyone here dare suggest that there can never be another Iniesta?
Has Messi improved over the last four seasons? I would say so. Is there more to come? Absolutely.
The decline thesis is a bit weak, to put it mildly. But Barca haven't lifted either the La Liga or CL trophy yet this season so perhaps their collapse is imminent. But I would strongly discourage anyone from shorting Barcelona stock.
The club has a pipeline of young talent like nothing else on the planet. Maybe there will never be another Iniesta, but does anyone here dare suggest that there can never be another Iniesta?
Has Messi improved over the last four seasons? I would say so. Is there more to come? Absolutely.
The decline thesis is a bit weak, to put it mildly. But Barca haven't lifted either the La Liga or CL trophy yet this season so perhaps their collapse is imminent. But I would strongly discourage anyone from shorting Barcelona stock.
La Liga is done and dusted Ruud10, the CL is another thing
The CL is done and dusted too, my friend.
Bullshit.
Well, that's just laughable.
Based on what ? I'd understand if the next matche(s) were the semi final/final.They may play vs Real Madrid again
Barca pulled out one terrific performance now, that's it. No one knows if they can repeat it twice against quality teams and Milan are an average team compared to Real, Bayern, Juve, Dortmund. They need to start playing great away from home as well, they won't overturn a 2 goal away loss against Real or Bayern easily. They won't score after five minutes every time they need it and the opponents won't hit the post instead of the goal when a player runs 1vs1 towards the goalkeeper all the time.
Of course they were great yesterday. Over both legs Milan came close to knock them out, though, and it's not like Barca destroyed one of the european giants. Arsenal looked like Barca yesterday in last years return leg against Milan. I'm still not convinced Barca are as good as they were between 2008 and 2011, though I'd much prefer to play them over two games. If they reach the final, they're probably very hard to beat.
Of course they were great yesterday. Over both legs Milan came close to knock them out, though, and it's not like Barca destroyed one of the european giants. Arsenal looked like Barca yesterday in last years return leg against Milan. I'm still not convinced Barca are as good as they were between 2008 and 2011, though I'd much prefer to play them over two games. If they reach the final, they're probably very hard to beat.
No. Unless they get PSG next round, the wont enjoy it at all. The Milan tie was a warning. If they don't tighten up at the back, they will pay heavily next time.
Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, with Xavi declining (physically more than anything) they need to work out how he can work in that team.
I think last season it was more us lot running out steam than anything else, we went gung ho in that first half and after about 60minutes our lot were finished. Barca rested a lot of their big players over the weekend before this match so they looked fresh
Alex Song doesn't seem to get many games for Barca. Wouldn't say no to him at United.
What a pointless buy that was.
Well, first off, what a performance that was last night from Barcelona. Right from the off they seemed to be almost psychotic in their pursuit of the goals that they needed, and were more than deserving winners on the night. However, Messi's genius is again getting them out of jail, and this is something the Barcelona fanboys are unwilling to contemplate or explain when/if he either gets injured or simply has a drop in performance. Still, whilst he's in this kind of form, he's simply unplayable and a joy to watch as a neutral.
On to the theme of the thread and again the controversial use of the term "decline", we have yet to see a strong argument from the Barcelona fans that shows their overall play isn't in decline from the dizzy heights of 2009-2011. I watch them most weeks (despite Castia's kind suggestion that I should simply watch "more football" to be able to understand this complex form of the game) and have noticed a distinct dip in their overall play since the before the Winter break. Now this could well be attributed to their manager's absence, which is both possible and understandable, but individual defensive mistakes cannot be attributed to that. There has been a litany of sloppy mistakes from the goalkeepers, centre-backs and their attacking full-backs exposing their defence to counter-attacks which we hadn't seen in previous years, and this must be a cause for concern for them.
Others have suggested that have we thought about the prospect of Barcelona improving? Well with Puyol, Xavi and Valdes either retiring soon or leaving, and with no adequate ready-made replacements, and Barcelona's suspect transfer record in recent years, I'd love to know how you can just assume that everything is going to be rosy for them. La Masia may not ever produce a crop like Xavi, Messi, Iniesta, Pique, Fabregas, Valdes etc. again, and they have been the catalyst in them becoming the best club side of all time.
Posters here are confusing the use of the word "decline" with "finished". On last night's evidence, they're probably still the best side left in the competition, but they are not as fearsome as they were in Guardiola's reign, which is the point I, and others (Brwned and bosnian_red), were trying to make. Look back at the OP: where did I say they were finished? I even mentioned that it could be construed as being silly as they were run-away leaders in La Liga but there was still some evidence in recent weeks to suggest that they were somewhat brittle and was just wondering where people saw them in 2, 3 or 5 years time considering the restructuring they'll surely have to do.
That's the aspect of the forum that is slightly annoying, though; if posters put as much effort into their arguments as they do their smugness, the discussion would flow a lot better here.
On to the theme of the thread and again the controversial use of the term "decline", we have yet to see a strong argument from the Barcelona fans that shows their overall play isn't in decline from the dizzy heights of 2009-2011. I watch them most weeks (despite Castia's kind suggestion that I should simply watch "more football" to be able to understand this complex form of the game) and have noticed a distinct dip in their overall play since the before the Winter break. Now this could well be attributed to their manager's absence, which is both possible and understandable, but individual defensive mistakes cannot be attributed to that. There has been a litany of sloppy mistakes from the goalkeepers, centre-backs and their attacking full-backs exposing their defence to counter-attacks which we hadn't seen in previous years, and this must be a cause for concern for them.
Others have suggested that have we thought about the prospect of Barcelona improving? Well with Puyol, Xavi and Valdes either retiring soon or leaving, and with no adequate ready-made replacements, and Barcelona's suspect transfer record in recent years, I'd love to know how you can just assume that everything is going to be rosy for them. La Masia may not ever produce a crop like Xavi, Messi, Iniesta, Pique, Fabregas, Valdes etc. again, and they have been the catalyst in them becoming the best club side of all time.
Posters here are confusing the use of the word "decline" with "finished". On last night's evidence, they're probably still the best side left in the competition, but they are not as fearsome as they were in Guardiola's reign, which is the point I, and others (Brwned and bosnian_red), were trying to make. Look back at the OP: where did I say they were finished? I even mentioned that it could be construed as being silly as they were run-away leaders in La Liga but there was still some evidence in recent weeks to suggest that they were somewhat brittle and was just wondering where people saw them in 2, 3 or 5 years time considering the restructuring they'll surely have to do.
That's the aspect of the forum that is slightly annoying, though; if posters put as much effort into their arguments as they do their smugness, the discussion would flow a lot better here.
I read somewhere he was voted the second worst signing of the season in Spain, behind Modric.
The guy was also stupid to go to Barca. Arsenal was more his level and he was one of they're best players. I wouldn't be surprised to see Song loaned back to them.
Can't blame Flamini, Hleb, Fabregas, Song and RVP for leaving, but it seems like Peterstorey's curse is affecting all but RVP.
I suppose having a player of Messi's class does paper over the cracks.
They're in a transition period where they'll need to phase out the likes of Alves, Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Villa etc. and need to bring in some fresh blood soon.
Defensively they've been a shambles at times and there's only so many midfielders they can attempt to unsuccessfully convert to centrebacks before they realise it's a bad idea.
Some people seem to think it's sacrilegious to suggest such Barca aren't perfect on here, for some reason.
They're in a transition period where they'll need to phase out the likes of Alves, Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Villa etc. and need to bring in some fresh blood soon.
Defensively they've been a shambles at times and there's only so many midfielders they can attempt to unsuccessfully convert to centrebacks before they realise it's a bad idea.
Some people seem to think it's sacrilegious to suggest such Barca aren't perfect on here, for some reason.
I'd argue that Cesc is a definite downgrade on Xavi. Xavi is one of the best players of his generation, Cesc is in no way fit to be talked about in those terms and I doubt ever will be.
He's got them out of jail plenty of times before Iv got no problem with that, why do you think that's a bad thing though I don't get it? Ronaldo does it for Madrid, RvP does it for us, hell even Bale does it for Spurs, good players always do these type's of things, it's one of the main reasons they are top players in the first place. I dont get what type of argument or point your getting at with that one.
The main problem they have had since Tito went away is the lack of closing down, Barcelona are the best in the world at closing down the opposition and since Christmas some of that has been lacking hence the dodgy looking defence and goals they are conceding, I agree that is a problem but like you say I put a lot of that down to Tito Vilanova being away, not a chance they would be so sloppy with him on the side lines. Before Christmas they were fine, more than fine actually they had the league wrapped up by January and had won all but 2 games, scoring at least 3 goals in the majority of matches. The style of play has changed slightly from 09 but isn't that a good thing? they had lost the league title the previous year and Chelsea knocked them out of the Champions League, they appointed a new manager who changed it slightly and until he left for his operation you could argue it was better, maybe a little less flair but overall they were good. The loss of a manager is a massive deal, id hate to think how we'd cope without SAF for months.
I don't know what the future will hold for them, nobody does and there's not a single team in the world that wouldn't miss a player like Xavi but it's pointless speculating on that at the moment anything can happen.
I do agree with that, they have lost a bit of the fear factor because this style has been around for a few years now and teams are adjusting to it, as I said earlier I think this is one of the main reasons Tito Vilanova is trying to change it slightly. They have lost a little bit of that flair they had in 09 and that makes them not look as good but I think that's more their own doing than being in decline, im almost certain that over playing is one of the main things he's trying to get rid off from this team.
We have 2 different opinions anyway it's clear we aren't going to agree on the matter, im sure some weeks they will be winning 6-0 and I can have a pop at you then others they will lose and you can put your points forward. I guess we will just have to see what and how they win things in the coming months.
Nah, Xavi and Iniesta will inevitably lose some of their brilliance and the new youth crop isn't as good I think. The likes of Thiago and dos Santos could turn into fine players but I doubt they're going to reach the same heights.
Like Modric, Song is only a bad signing because they didn't fecking need him. He's done fine on the few occasions I've watched Barca and he's actually been on the pitch. I rate him as a player, he would be perfect for us.
It's both their 1st seasons so I certainly wouldn't write off Modric. As for Song it is hard to see how he will fit in.
funnily enough they're a far better side without Cesc Fabregas, the way he's shoe horned in really ruins things for them at times. Infact I bet they wish they had went for Ozil instead, at 20 odd million cheaper he has in my opinion turned out to be a better player and better suited to them.
there is no direct replacement for Xavi once he is gone
Fabregas is a great, great player but he is a totally different type of player than Xavi. Not sure how Barca will re-structure once Xavi hangs up his boots. You can totally see what Barca looked like in the midfield these past few weeks when Xavi was not in the lineup, completely different team than what we are used to seeing
Fabregas is a great, great player but he is a totally different type of player than Xavi. Not sure how Barca will re-structure once Xavi hangs up his boots. You can totally see what Barca looked like in the midfield these past few weeks when Xavi was not in the lineup, completely different team than what we are used to seeing
Funnily enough, I've often thought that there's more chance of seeing Busquets take up the role of Xavi than Fabregas. I think there's a lot more expression to come from him that we could see as Xavi is phased out and that he's more suited to be a dictator with his fantastic one-touch passing and football brain than Fabregas is. A bit like how Carrick comes out of his shell a bit more when he's not partnered with Scholes, I reckon Busquets is capable of stepping out of the brilliant simplicity of his game and really becoming the main man in the future. That's not to say he's been some sort of water carrier, obviously.
Will be interesting also to see what happens with Iniesta in the next few years. I remember him playing almost as a deep lying midfielder at times much earlier in his career and there'll be the option of having him further back on average I imagine. It would take Iniesta being more willing to really dictate for him to match Xavi's game in this aspect but he's probably got it in him (obviously he's a world class central midfielder/player in general and this isn't exactly controversial, but Xavi's movement and control is unlike anything I've ever seen in football. Iniesta would definitely have to step up in this aspect if Barcelona are to continue to dominate possession in games as they have done in recent years).
That could be a pretty amazing stop gap until Busquets/someone else is ready and would perhaps make it more ideal for Fabregas to shine. I just can't see Fabregas becoming a Xavi-esque player at all at this moment.
Barcelona would obviously have to compensate in some serious way in terms of signings up front/on the wing if this is how it went down, mind. They're massively dependant on Messi/Iniesta for creativity at times and will need to sort some shit out there if Iniesta is to be used like that in the future. To say their record in the transfer market has been hit and miss isn't exactly unfair so it'll be an interesting few years if another batch of mentalists don't come from their academy.
barca will definitely try to buy wilshere in the next 2-3 years IMO.
We should go for Fabregas and Song if that happens...
Either that or do what's right and throw the bank at Wilshere this summer.
Either that or do what's right and throw the bank at Wilshere this summer.
In terms of both style and substance Busquets is the closest to Xavi that there is; the tactical nous, split second decision-making and passing range... all aspects that Busquets is superior in than Fàbregas and even Iniesta. Of course this is mainly due to the fact that the latter two are attack-minded players and if anything Xavi has a defensive mind first and foremost (like Busquets).
Iniesta in the Xavi role could perhaps work, but it would seem too forced IMO and ultimately unbalance both the "Xavi" and the "Iniesta" role (which has then been taken over by Fàbregas I presume? in that case even Thiago is closer to Iniesta than Fàbregas has proven to be so far).
Fàbregas is a world-class midfielder obviously, but he doesn't fit in Barça's specific midfield system, hence the experiments as a false 9 and false 10 last season (also with Spain if I recall?) and the 3-4-3 formation, trying to shoehorn Cesc in there somewhere*. It's funny how roles can differ so much in different football cultures that Fàbregas was seen as a central mid and early on even deep-lying playmaker type in England, but is insufficient as even the most offensive player of the Barça midfield trio (he has shined most in aforementioned "false" midfielder roles, see e.g. 4-5 win v Deportivo this season where he gave 2 excellent assists, while playing as a false 10 -- this was his best display in Barça colours that I've seen anyway). It's similar to how there is incredulity to "Brazilian" style full(/wing)-backs being capable defensively or e.g. Mascherano as a CB, even though he's excelled in that role for 3 seasons now.
*these experiments by Guardiola were probably more for evolutionary purposes, but he must have seen a role for Fàbregas to be played in them; the problem is that this season Barça have stayed conservative which is why he looks out of place when he's in the starting XI
So, if Barcelona "only" win La Liga and the Champions League -- and not the Copa del Rey -- would it still be evidence of their "decline"?
"Evolution" would be a much better word than "decline"?
And to be clear as to where I stand, I just don't enjoy watching them that much and hope somebody -- Real or Bayern -- shred them a new sphincter.
"Evolution" would be a much better word than "decline"?
And to be clear as to where I stand, I just don't enjoy watching them that much and hope somebody -- Real or Bayern -- shred them a new sphincter.
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