Eligibility of footballers playing in different countries to birth

[NotoriousISSY]

In the wake of the slightly odd debate regarding Adnan Januzaj's potential future in international football, which is stupidly premature, I feel the need to create a relevant thread for such discussions (the Januzaj thread is bordering on some sort of EDL rally).

So in your opinion, how does one qualify to play for a specific nation?

Should it be birth and birth only? Is it okay to play for a country because of your grandparent's heritage? Is naturalised nationality acceptable?

Discuss.

 

[Goooose]

As an England fan I'd be happy to have any footballers that actually want to play for England, don't care where they're from.

 

[x42bn6]

Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

I think the current regulations and the gentlemans' agreement between the Home Nations are fine (and those would rule out Januzaj for England), except perhaps how the Good Friday Agreement impacts Northern Ireland in this regard (re: Gibson, for example), which I think is unfair on Northern Ireland.

 

[Scrumpet]

Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

I think the current regulations and the gentlemans' agreement between the Home Nations are fine (and those would rule out Januzaj for England), except perhaps how the Good Friday Agreement impacts Northern Ireland in this regard (re: Gibson, for example), which I think is unfair on Northern Ireland.

Is that another derailment I spot on the horizon?

 

[Count Orduck]

Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

I think the current regulations and the gentlemans' agreement between the Home Nations are fine (and those would rule out Januzaj for England), except perhaps how the Good Friday Agreement impacts Northern Ireland in this regard (re: Gibson, for example), which I think is unfair on Northern Ireland.

Why would they rule out Januzaj playing for England? I thought it was just a case of waiting for him to become naturalised.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Surely a poll would be more conclusive? And I only want people who are English to play for our NT, that for me doesn't warrant people who weren't 'living' here since under the age of 10, i.e. if they moved here for a job etc they aren't English.

 

[DOTA]

Why would they rule out Januzaj playing for England? I thought it was just a case of waiting for him to become naturalised.

The "gentleman's agreement" is that none of the home nations shall select players who qualify through the naturalisation rule.

 

[Genius Me!]

Bizarre comment really. Your example is even more bizarre as Anglo Saxons, if that is what you mean by English, are racially Germanic. English is also a Germanic language.

Look at players like Sol Campbell, he is not not racially 'English' but he was proud to play for the English football team and identifies as English.

Berahinho at WBA is an interesting case. He was not born in England, his family were refugees who fled persecution, now he wants to represent the country that helped him. It makes me proud that he does.

If Januzaj feels more kinship with England than the other countries in his life, for whatever reason, then I am happy for him to play for us.

This notion that 'English' is some kind of racial identity is offensive and absolute bollocks.

Why is it offensive and absolute bollocks? I live in London which is very multi cultured and you won't find all the UK born Turkish, Greek, Italian, Arabic, Indian etc etc identifying themselves as English.

You obviously come from a different walk of life to what I come from but you wouldn't look at me and think "yeah he's English". I personally think its important to not forget your heritage and roots and where you "come from" although I have no issue with someone who's not white classing themselves as English if that's how they feel.

Maybe it's different over here in London, but if Ozil had grown up in England I can assure you he'd be playing for Turkey and not England. And that's the difference between England and Germany and why I personally can't see Ozil's point of view because I don't know what it's like to grow up in Germany but over here I don't think that would happen.

Not that I have an issue with people playing for the country of their birth. At the end of the day, England is very much my country but my nationality is British and if it was the choice between GB, Turkey and England I would probably choose to represent them in that order although it would be a tough decision. Which I suppose contradicts my earlier statement about not understanding why Ozil chose Germany, I suppose from that point of view I can understand it.

 

[Member 39557]

The "gentleman's agreement" is that none of the home nations shall select players who qualify through the naturalisation rule.

Was that introduced after John Barnes? He was Jamaican wasn't he.

 

[DOTA]

Was that introduced after John Barnes? He was Jamaican wasn't he.

I'm not certain but I did think it was more recent than that, yes.

 

[Count Orduck]

The "gentleman's agreement" is that none of the home nations shall select players who qualify through the naturalisation rule.

Well that's just retarded. What a silly rule. I get that it's probably to stop movement between the Home Nations, but other than that it's pointless.

 

[Count Orduck]

Wait, how can someone feel "British" but not "English" if they're not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish? They're both meaningless cultural identities. British just means English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. You can't be, for example, French and British. Britain is just the collection of those four countries, no more, no less. If you've lived in England, yet reject being English as if it's some sort of disease, then how can you embrace being British when they're effectively the same thing? Madness.

You refuse to associate with England, so instead you associate with the country of which England makes up 75%?

 

[sglowrider]

The boat has sailed. In the past I would have hoped that either you were born in the country you played for or your parents. But in a globalised world, I am not sure how this works out anymore.

The Oz or the Kiwi rugby team has a bunch of players not born in either OZ or NZ. Cricket had a handful of South African players playing for England during the Apartheid period. Where would England be without KP?

If soldiers like the Gurkhas can fight and die for Queen and country, I think football ought to get with the times and offer more flexibility.

 

[RexHamilton]

I'm Irish so if you have a Great Granny that spent her summer in Youghal when she was 7, feel free to come and join us and make us better. If you're a midfielder don't be put off by having to sit on the bench and watch Glenn Whelan and Paul Green play. Trap is gone.

 

[DOTA]

The boat has sailed. In the past I would have hoped that either you were born in the country you played for or your parents. But in a globalised world, I am not sure how this works out anymore.

The Oz or the Kiwi rugby team has a bunch of players not born in either OZ or NZ. Cricket had a handful of South African players playing for England during the Apartheid period. Where would England be without KP?

If soldiers like the Gurkhas can fight and die for Queen and country, I think football ought to get with the times and offer more flexibility.

I'm not sure the concept of international football does, really.

 

[alastair]

Wait, how can someone feel "British" but not "English" if they're not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish? They're both meaningless cultural identities. British just means English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. You can't be, for example, French and British. Britain is just the collection of those four countries, no more, no less. If you've lived in England, yet reject being English as if it's some sort of disease, then how can you embrace being British when they're effectively the same thing? Madness.

You refuse to associate with England, so instead you associate with the country of which England makes up 75%?

Very few people are completely English. Most have ancestry across the British Isles, and therefore define themselves as British. I would never refer to myself as English over British even though I've lived in London all of my life.

 

[OJKernow]

I don't have any 'strong' or 'passionate' view that only English by birth players should play for England.

If it's within the rules and other countries are making the most of it (Germany for example) then I honestly don't think we can allow ourselves to fall even further behind.

If it means adding a bit of flair and creativity to our usual uninspiring national team then I'm all for it.

It's a sporting issue at the end of the day and it shouldn't get confused as some sort of political one.

 

[sglowrider]

I'm not sure the concept of international football does, really.

Sorry, I was referring to the mobility of labour and people moving with their families.

 

[Member 39557]

I'm Irish so if you have a Great Granny that spent her summer in Youghal when she was 7, feel free to come and join us and make us better. If you're a midfielder don't be put off by having to sit on the bench and watch Glenn Whelan and Paul Green play. Trap is gone.

Ahh, Jack Charlton's recruitment speech.

 

[alastair]

I'm not sure the concept of international football does, really.

Bang on.

With immigration between all nations as high as it has ever been, access to different countries as good as it has ever been and thus the amount of mixed parentage that exists, international football in the traditional sense is really at odds with society as a whole.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Maybe it's different over here in London, but if Ozil had grown up in England I can assure you he'd be playing for Turkey and not England.

No you can't. You can't make any such assurances.

 

[Genius Me!]

Wait, how can someone feel "British" but not "English" if they're not Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish? They're both meaningless cultural identities. British just means English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. You can't be, for example, French and British. Britain is just the collection of those four countries, no more, no less. If you've lived in England, yet reject being English as if it's some sort of disease, then how can you embrace being British when they're effectively the same thing? Madness.

You refuse to associate with England, so instead you associate with the country of which England makes up 75%?

I have a British passport, therefore I'm British. I didn't say there's something diseased about being English, I'm just not English. I don't see why that's a problem, I don't have an English passport and I don't have English heritage. It's not like I'm saying I hate England, I'd choose to live here over anywhere else in the world but that doesn't mean I'd abandon my "roots".

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

Why is it offensive and absolute bollocks? I live in London which is very multi cultured and you won't find all the UK born Turkish, Greek, Italian, Arabic, Indian etc etc identifying themselves as English.

It is offensive because you tacitly imply that the English or Anglo Saxons do not welcome other races/cultures.

Carl Froch - Proud Englishman who is the son of first generation Polish immigrants
Wayne Rooney - Proud Englishman who is of Irish decent and a committed Catholic
Sol Campbell, John Barnes et al - Proud Englishman who are Jamaican or of Jamaican descent
Larence Dalligilio - Former England rugby captain who has an Irish mother and Italian father
Wilfried Zaha - Born in the Ivory Coast but has chosen to play for England. The Irovy Coast get to World Cups too, he is not a mercenary.

The list can go on and on and on and on. You are talking absolute bollocks. 'English' is not a closed racial identity.

 

[DOTA]

Sorry, I was referring to the mobility of labour and people moving with their families.

I know. I would explain but I think Al's just put it better than I could.

 

[Genius Me!]

No you can't. You can't make any such assurances.

Well, yes I can. I'm sure I know the Turkish community better than you do, I've not met one that identifies as English or would even want to play for England. Had he grown up in England completely alienated from Turkish people then maybe, but I highly doubt it.

 

[Count Orduck]

I have a British passport, therefore I'm British. I didn't say there's something diseased about being English, I'm just not English. I don't see why that's a problem, I don't have an English passport and I don't have English heritage. It's not like I'm saying I hate England, I'd choose to live here over anywhere else in the world but that doesn't mean I'd abandon my "roots".

Would you play for a British football team then, if one existed?

For what it's worth, when Scotland fecks off out of the UK in a couple of years, I'd be very much for a "United Kingdom" football team and not the silliness we have now, that no one else does.

 

[ciderman9000000]

Well, yes I can. I'm sure I know the Turkish community better than you do, I've not met one that identifies as English or would even want to play for England. Had he grown up in England completely alienated from Turkish people then maybe, but I highly doubt it.

Well, no you can't. I can safely say I know more Turkish people than you, and many of them consider themselves as being British.

 

[Genius Me!]

Would you play for a British football team then, if one existed?

I would, but I couldn't tell you if I'd choose them or Turkey. It would be difficult (Assuming I was actually good enough to have the choice)

 

[Member 39557]

I have a British passport, therefore I'm British. I didn't say there's something diseased about being English, I'm just not English. I don't see why that's a problem, I don't have an English passport and I don't have English heritage. It's not like I'm saying I hate England, I'd choose to live here over anywhere else in the world but that doesn't mean I'd abandon my "roots".

If English passports existed, would you then class yourself as English? You say you'd rather live there than anywhere in the world, yet it's not good enough to identify with. Seems a bit harsh.

 

[Genius Me!]

Well, no you can't. I can safely say I know more Turkish people than you and many of them consider themselves as being British.

And how can you safely say you know more Turkish people than me?

 

[ciderman9000000]

And how can you safely say you know more Turkish people than me?

My credentials as a knower of the Turkish aren't in question here.

 

[Count Orduck]

That said, I live in Ireland and don't consider myself Irish. Then again, I've only been here two years and don't have any family or birth ties to the place other than great-grandparents, so I guess that's a difference.

 

[Genius Me!]

If English passports existed, would you then class yourself as English? You say you'd rather live there than anywhere in the world, yet it's not good enough to identify with. Seems a bit harsh.

I really couldn't tell you, but why is it harsh? My heritage is from North Cyprus and Iran, wouldn't you say it's more harsh to just completely forget about where I came from?

None of my grandparents were born in this country, my dad wasn't, only my mum was and myself obviously.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

In regards to Januzaj how does he decide? Grandparents, father, mother and himself all grew up in different places and still as a child/young man he's started a new life in England.

Sounds like he actually can't play for England and someone is playing the odds, but if he can and has a passion for England and sees no affiliation with the country he was born in or the countries of his heritage, why shouldn't he opt to play for the nation he goes from kid to professional in?

(Note this isn't based on my personal opinions, more so a made up scenario).

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

And how can you safely say you know more Turkish people than me?

Well, no you can't. I can safely say I know more Turkish people than you, and many of them consider themselves as being British.

Ciderman VS Genius..... Who knows more Turkish People? And do they consider themselves British?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

And how can you safely say you know more Turkish people than me?

There's qutie a bit of irony in that statement GM...

My credentials as a knower of the Turkish aren't in question here.

 

[Genius Me!]

My credentials as a knower of the Turkish aren't in question here.

They're very much in question, considering I have Turkish relatives, I've got a head start on you.

There's qutie a bit of irony in that statement GM...

Well, considering I live in an area where the biggest Turkish community exists and having family etc. Ciderman will have to know a lot.

But anyway, this isn't a bleeding competition.

Edit: This thread needs some more Revan.

 

[Member 39557]

I really couldn't tell you, but why is it harsh? My heritage is from North Cyprus and Iran, wouldn't you say it's more harsh to just completely forget about where I came from?

None of my grandparents were born in this country, my dad wasn't, only my mum was and myself obviously.

It wasn't to do with your heritage as such, although you and your mum were born here so technically you're as English as anything else. It's more identifying with Britain because of your British passport, but identifying with England as a third behind Britain and Turkey.

My Grandparents were from Irish and Italian stock, but I class myself as British/English, as do my parents. I guess it boils down to how much "native" culture is instilled into the offspring of migrants?

 

[ciderman9000000]

They're very much in question, considering I have Turkish relatives, I've got a head start on you.

I probably have Turkish relatives too though considering the sheer volume of Turkish people I know.

 

[VP]

I really couldn't tell you, but why is it harsh? My heritage is from North Cyprus and Iran, wouldn't you say it's more harsh to just completely forget about where I came from?

None of my grandparents were born in this country, my dad wasn't, only my mum was and myself obviously.

Surely that just makes you an Englishman with Cypriot and Iranian heritage?

This is a bizarre argument.