Well your last point is exactly that. I don't have the Iranian culture in me, so I suppose I identify with England more because of it. But there's a lot of Turkish culture and that runs through the whole of north London, even English people know Turkish over here!
Eligibility of footballers playing in different countries to birth
- Thread starter NotoriousISSY
- Start date
Both my parents are South African, but I would absolutely say I'm English... and anyone who would question can do one quite frankly.
However, say I was a professional footballer, of mid-level premier league talent, never going to get a call-up for England but I'm still decent enough... would I play for South Africa if the offer arose? Probably... but only for footballing reasons (playing on a national level - maybe getting to play in World Cups), and not due to any national identity i'd have with the country. I suppose a bit of me feels South African, but it's a very minute part.
However, say I was a professional footballer, of mid-level premier league talent, never going to get a call-up for England but I'm still decent enough... would I play for South Africa if the offer arose? Probably... but only for footballing reasons (playing on a national level - maybe getting to play in World Cups), and not due to any national identity i'd have with the country. I suppose a bit of me feels South African, but it's a very minute part.
Very bizarre argument, but I wouldn't say so. But like I said, the Turkish community is really strong in North London. I used to actually call myself English when I was younger, then when I moved to Dubai none of the kids could understand why I would call myself English. When I moved back to an area called Telford, a lot of people were racist to me, when I moved back to London at 18 I haven't felt more at home.
So that explains why you were upset by my post the other day. I don't have a problem with people classing themselves as English if that's how they feel. But I won't have people telling me that I should call myself English when I'm not or not how I feel.
I'm proud to be British though, and I'm proud to have been born in this country, but I have a strong connection with my origins whereas I assume you don't?
I wasn't upset, I just thought the phrase "How can I be English when I'm not white?" is in an incredibly damaging statement... and I still do in fact.
That's why I said it was a bit harsh earlier. To me, they're part of the same package. Each to their own though!
You are para-phrasing I hope...
But by that same token, if I was white, then I wouldn't have been outcasted during school would I in a predominantly white area? Not that I'm saying you have to be white to be English, that wasn't what I was trying to suggest.
Did he say that? That sounds like a pretty disturbing statement.
Nationality and race are two different things.
What is this, the Genius Me thread?
I don't agree with naturalised players representing a national team, not unless they have done significant schooling in said country.
What will eventually happen is teams like Qatar will have the best teams, and agents will be offered incentives by football associations for their young promising players to not represent the country of their birth, but instead accept citizenship (and a large envelope, no doubt) from them. Qatar themselves did this a few years ago, I recall them awarding citizenship to a number of uncapped Brazilians who I am pretty sure had not been living in Qatar, and certainly not for years anyway. Players like Ailton and Dede were nationalised if I am not mistaken.
There is no fixed rule across the globe as to what is required to earn citizenship in a specific country. If a country so chooses to, they can award citizenship to somebody who has been there for a week. This will happen a lot with footballers, and I can forsee potential 'bidding wars' at national level for players.
What will eventually happen is teams like Qatar will have the best teams, and agents will be offered incentives by football associations for their young promising players to not represent the country of their birth, but instead accept citizenship (and a large envelope, no doubt) from them. Qatar themselves did this a few years ago, I recall them awarding citizenship to a number of uncapped Brazilians who I am pretty sure had not been living in Qatar, and certainly not for years anyway. Players like Ailton and Dede were nationalised if I am not mistaken.
There is no fixed rule across the globe as to what is required to earn citizenship in a specific country. If a country so chooses to, they can award citizenship to somebody who has been there for a week. This will happen a lot with footballers, and I can forsee potential 'bidding wars' at national level for players.
That is literally what you said though, it was a closed statement... I'm sure you didn't mean it just as a close statement without more context surrounding it, but that is what the quote in question implied.
I grew up in a totally white area, and went to a totally white primary school (and a 95% white secondary school) and can count the instances of racism on one hand... so I would say you're upbringing - whilst obviously not nice - isn't the norm.
It wasn't how it meant to come out or how I meant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/3523266.stm
Found an article on it actually. Seems Fifa stepped in to combat such behaviour.
Someone raised the interesting point in the Januzaj thread about Mo Farrah, I dont feel like that had a satisfactory answer. Why should Mo represent GB but Januzaj not represent England? I dont see why representing GB or England should require different criteria.
I think the rules in athletics differ to football. GB used to have a decent long jumper who represented GB called Fiona May. She married an Italian and then represented Italy, eventually winning World Championships for them.
Oh right.
I must say my gut reaction to this is that Januzaj should choose between Belgium and Albania. I dont see why he should be eligible to play fro England, neither can I imagine for the life of me why he would want to. Belgium have a pretty decent set of players at the moment, if he is thinking about having a decent international career he should choose them.
I must say my gut reaction to this is that Januzaj should choose between Belgium and Albania. I dont see why he should be eligible to play fro England, neither can I imagine for the life of me why he would want to. Belgium have a pretty decent set of players at the moment, if he is thinking about having a decent international career he should choose them.
Because a lot football fans are morons.
I think there's something off about people who get residency purely because they moved to a country for professional reasons and then play for the country. It's not as bad in some countries where you have to wait 5 years, but it's ridiculous that someone can play somewhere for 2 seasons and then be eligible for that national team, like that Brazillian who played for Poland. It's just asking to be abused by those rich Arabic countries, it'll be interesting to see how many of the Qatar squad at the 2022 world cup are actually from there and not rushed through citizen's.
I find this logic that Ozil would have turned his back on England quite strange to, as if Germany's better than England at intergrating immigrants, when there's a load of players born in foreign countries, or to parent's born in foreign countries, currently in the England squad and under 21. Welbeck, Stirling, Berahino, Zaha, Chalobah, Jenkinson, and Ameobi at least out the current national team are either foreign born or have foreign born parents.
I find this logic that Ozil would have turned his back on England quite strange to, as if Germany's better than England at intergrating immigrants, when there's a load of players born in foreign countries, or to parent's born in foreign countries, currently in the England squad and under 21. Welbeck, Stirling, Berahino, Zaha, Chalobah, Jenkinson, and Ameobi at least out the current national team are either foreign born or have foreign born parents.
Do you live in Green lane?
Isn't Mo Farah's dad British? So by that, it's based on his dad's nationality at the very least as opposed to eventually getting out of Somalia where his mum was born and coming to England.
Not far!
Then yes, you are submerged among a vast number of Turk and Kurds. You may indeed know quite a few.
I know 19 Turks
Its funny the way football reacts to this shite.
How many of the current England cricket team are South African and Irish?
How many of the current England cricket team are South African and Irish?
But the agreement suggests that the naturalised players have to have been living in that country 5 years prior to their 18th birthday. With Adnan already being 18, surely he doesn't qualify, as he's only had 2 years. where as Wilf Zaha does qualify, because he was born in the Ivory Coast, but moved to England when he was a child. It's the reason why Angel Rangel couldn't play for Wales. He's lived in Wales for 5 years, but those years have to be prior to the player turning 18, basically meaning non-British players have to be educated in the country they wish to play for.
Says it all really...
KP, Trott, Rankin and Morgan.
To be fair... if everybody was white, there was never likely to be much opportunity for racism, no?
I'd say only countries you were born in or have lived in since before the age of say ten. Then include the nationality that is on his parents passports.
Grandparents and all that shouldn't factor.
Grandparents and all that shouldn't factor.
Put it another way, why should he be able to play for a country where he spent the first 16 years of his life but has no attachment to otherwise (i.e. family isn't from there), but not for a country where he might live for most of his career? Does place of birth really matter that much?
I don't really know the answer (I'm not even sure there is one) - just throwing it out there.
I'm not white...
Depends what format you are looking at really, you can add Matt Prior, Kieswetter, Michael Lumb, and I believe the performance squad this summer had 8 SA born players in the 30 man squad so through out all forms and levels there is a strong presence of "other nationalities" in the teams.
Even out of those, Trott's dad is British, ad KP's mum is British, so pretty sure both could play for England's football team too.
The Irish situation is a lot more complicated than the debate relating to football because a) they aren't a test team and b) there's the whole comlexity of Northern Irish people (Rankin) being british but being able to play for Ireland in many sports, and take an Irish passport if they want etc.
That makes more sense then.
I hope you gave all those honkeys plenty of grief.
Put it another way, why should he be able to play for a country where he spent the first 16 years of his life but has no attachment to otherwise (i.e. family isn't from there), but not for a country where he might live for most of his career? Does place of birth really matter that much?
I don't really know the answer (I'm not even sure there is one) - just throwing it out there.
International football is racist.
In all seriousness tho, at least your place of birth is fixed. You cant make predictions about the future and deduce from that his international allegiances. I mean, he might play most of his football in America, if the Earthquakes make an audacious bid for him and for x, y and z reasons he decides to go for it. He might play in Italy or Russia even. Maybe China, he is young, who knows what the future will look like.
Is that right? If he is then yes there is nothing to debate.
If this was allowed to happen ,we would end up like the Cricket team.
List of cricketers born outside UK and Ireland who have represented England
AUSTRALIA: Billy Murdoch, John Ferris, Sammy Woods, Albert Trott, ‘Gubby’ Allen, Adam Hollioake, Ben Hollioake, Jason Gallian, Tim Ambrose.
SOUTH AFRICA: Basil D’Oliviera, Tony Greig, Ian Greig, Allan Lamb, Chris Smith, Robin Smith, Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Ian Trott.
WEST INDIES: Lord Harris, Pelham Warner, Roland Butcher, Norman Cowans, Wilf Slack, Gladstone Small, Phillip DeFreitas, Devon Malcolm, Chris Lewis, Neil Williams, Joseph Benjamin.
NEW ZEALAND: Andy Caddick.
INDIA: K.S. Ranjitsinhji (‘Ranji’), Edward Wynyard, Richard Young, Neville Tufnell, Douglas Jardine, K.S. Duleepsinhji (‘Duleep’), Nawab of Pataudi, Sr., Errol Holmes, Norman Mitchell-Innes, George Emmett, Colin Cowdrey, John Jameson, Bob Woolmer, Robin Jackman, Nasser Hussain, Minal Patel.
PAKISTAN: Usman Afzaal, Owais Shah.
ZIMBABWE (formerly Rhodesia): Graeme Hick, Paul Parker.
KENYA: Derek Pringle.
ZAMBIA: Phil Edmonds, Neil Radford.
GERMANY: Donald Carr, Paul Terry.
ITALY: Ted Dexter.
PERU: Freddie Brown.
HONG KONG: Dermot Reeve.
PAPUA NEW GUINEA: Geraint Jones.
DENMARK: Amjad Khan.
List of cricketers born outside UK and Ireland who have represented England
AUSTRALIA: Billy Murdoch, John Ferris, Sammy Woods, Albert Trott, ‘Gubby’ Allen, Adam Hollioake, Ben Hollioake, Jason Gallian, Tim Ambrose.
SOUTH AFRICA: Basil D’Oliviera, Tony Greig, Ian Greig, Allan Lamb, Chris Smith, Robin Smith, Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Ian Trott.
WEST INDIES: Lord Harris, Pelham Warner, Roland Butcher, Norman Cowans, Wilf Slack, Gladstone Small, Phillip DeFreitas, Devon Malcolm, Chris Lewis, Neil Williams, Joseph Benjamin.
NEW ZEALAND: Andy Caddick.
INDIA: K.S. Ranjitsinhji (‘Ranji’), Edward Wynyard, Richard Young, Neville Tufnell, Douglas Jardine, K.S. Duleepsinhji (‘Duleep’), Nawab of Pataudi, Sr., Errol Holmes, Norman Mitchell-Innes, George Emmett, Colin Cowdrey, John Jameson, Bob Woolmer, Robin Jackman, Nasser Hussain, Minal Patel.
PAKISTAN: Usman Afzaal, Owais Shah.
ZIMBABWE (formerly Rhodesia): Graeme Hick, Paul Parker.
KENYA: Derek Pringle.
ZAMBIA: Phil Edmonds, Neil Radford.
GERMANY: Donald Carr, Paul Terry.
ITALY: Ted Dexter.
PERU: Freddie Brown.
HONG KONG: Dermot Reeve.
PAPUA NEW GUINEA: Geraint Jones.
DENMARK: Amjad Khan.
In ways I'm jealous of people who have mixed heritage. It would be nice to identify with more than one country and feel you belong or have roots somewhere else. My parents, grand parents, great grandparents etc. Literally as far back as can be traced are Irish. While I'd be fiercely proud of being Irish, I've often wondered what It'd be like to have another cultural influence. Maybe I can marry a Turk. Ciderman and GM could surely hook me up with one. The first one to get me one is the winner of the 'Who knows the most Turks' game.