Fantasy Tournament: World Cup All-Time All-Stars

antohan

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9 out of 10 comments when your game goes up will be "Those arrows :lol:". Now that you posted it here first it may go down to 6 out of 10 (would be five except the rival manager will be steering and lapping it up).

I don't get what is people's problem with arrows, they clarify things for me, although I prefer to post the default formation and an "In possession" version showing how the shape changes. For some bizarre reason people don't like that either and, in any case, it usually results in feeding people more material to pick holes into. I find that really disappointing TBH.
 

Annahnomoss

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9 out of 10 comments when your game goes up will be "Those arrows :lol:". Now that you posted it here first it may go down to 6 out of 10 (would be five except the rival manager will be steering and lapping it up).

I don't get what is people's problem with arrows, they clarify things for me, although I prefer to post the default formation and an "In possession" version showing how the shape changes. For some bizarre reason people don't like that either and, in any case, it usually results in feeding people more material to pick holes into. I find that really disappointing TBH.

I told him the exact same thing. For me they are just an obvious bonus - almost necessary to get an alright understanding on the formation. But my experience with it has been that it works negatively, which is sad.
 

antohan

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Víctor Rodríguez Andrade


Víctor was José Leandro Andrade's nephew. He idolised his uncle so much he insisted on being referred to using both his parents' surnames, otherwise he would have just been one of a million Rodríguez's. He played as a right halfback just like him, although he was stronger in defensive phases while somewhat less adventurous going forward. Not that he didn't do it, but he was far more defensively sound than anyone around so it was usually the case that if one of the two had to play a more conservative game he would be the one doing it.

That tactical discipline and submission to what the team needed was further demonstrated at the 1950 World Cup when, in the absence of good quality leftbacks and with a fair few good rightbacks around, it was Rodríguez Andrade who was deployed on the left with Juan Carlos González on the right and then Gambetta when he got injured against Spain.

Gambetta was a good rightback and, in fact, the one the dribble is named after in South America (gambeta). His classic runs piling up rivals are referred to as "gambetear" to this day. However, he had spent the first half of the tourno messing about and acting as the official team photographer (he was a character), which may have contributed to him having an absolute mare against Sweden. With Zizinho starting on his side and Zizinho-to-Ademir being a proven devastatingly effective route to goal, things looked ominous. So Uruguay surprised Brazil on the day by starting Rodríguez Andrade on the right and Gambetta on the left.

Within five minutes though, the entire issue was sorted. The first or second time Zizinho gets the ball Víctor puts in one of those skeleton-busting tackles which are honest but dare you to try what dishonesty could be like. Zizinho didn't want to, and was largely anonymous for most of the game. Ever since then it has been a tried and tested stratagem, culminating in 1986 when Batista forgot the honest part of it and got himself into the record books as the fastest sending off in WC history. To make it an even more spectacular fail, Gordon XXX wasn't someone who would stop playing as a result.

But I digress. As the game progressed it was increasingly clear that Gambetta was fully focused and having a good game, but being on the left was occasionally presenting him some challenges. Still, Brazil was looking far more dangerous on the left, while Víctor's talent was getting pissed away on the right... So they swapped back. The odd thing was Brazil then swapped Zizinho and Jair. It has never been clear whether it was to keep Andrade away from Jair or because as soon as they swapped Gambetta tried to make a point to Zizinho and actually slid through him (Zizinho had been injured earlier in the WC and keeping people away from injury was important given no subs at the time). Or it may be a coincidence, feck knows, Jair wasn't one to follow tactical instructions anyway. Once Brazil scored he was supposedly asked to drop deep and help out his teammates who were struggling to contain Ghiggia. Apparently the instruction "didn't reach him".

The one time Zizinho and Ademir managed to link-up well Brazil scored through Friaca. Some say the linesman had actually raised his flag but then hid it up his arse when the stadium exploded in celebrations. Varela certainly hadn't seen that, his entire argument with the ref and linesman was predicated on one basic fact: rapid as Friaca was, there was no way he could beat Andrade in a sprint thus had to have been offside. He actually remained convinced to his death that the argument was watertight.

In any case, the Ghiggia show had long started and was about to bear fruit.

Four years later, Rodríguez Andrade was one of the main stars in the side (which had by now got itself a leftback). I've never come across anyone who could unequivocally say one tourno was better than the other, lots of ifs and buts and largely "he was just amazing in both". One fact that adds to this is how the semifinal unravelled. Puskas watched it from the stands and concluded Rodríguez Andrade was the best he had ever seen in his position. Czibor had scored, yes, but he had done the best job on him he had ever seen. Unfortunately, late in the first half of ET Andrade suffers a muscle tear. That was the tipping point, for the remaining 15-20 minutes Czibor had the freedom of that flank and the Czibor-Kocsis highway reactivated. Within a few minutes Hungary doubled their goal tally and put paid to the game.

:(

PS: Question, can anyone think of any other case of different-generation relatives winning the World Cup?
 

Annahnomoss

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Liking the look of Fergus's team

Cutch also has the strongest backline ive ever seen in a draft



I think hes thinking of the European Cup

He has a back 5 AND a sweeper sort of player in Luis Monti. Monti's role was to participate in the offense and in the defense it was to mark out the forward. So basically he will be lining up with a 6 man defense, defensively and a 3 man one offensively(one more than regular teams who has 2 cb's).

So indeed it is the strongest defensive line-up I have ever seen in a draft.
 

Paolo Di Canio

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He has a back 5 AND a sweeper sort of player in Luis Monti. Monti's role was to participate in the offense and in the defense it was to mark out the forward. So basically he will be lining up with a 6 man defense, defensively and a 3 man one offensively(one more than regular teams who has 2 cb's).

So indeed it is the strongest defensive line-up I have ever seen in a draft.

Muller counts for two men :lol:
 

Balu

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9 out of 10 comments when your game goes up will be "Those arrows :lol:". Now that you posted it here first it may go down to 6 out of 10 (would be five except the rival manager will be steering and lapping it up).

I don't get what is people's problem with arrows, they clarify things for me, although I prefer to post the default formation and an "In possession" version showing how the shape changes. For some bizarre reason people don't like that either and, in any case, it usually results in feeding people more material to pick holes into. I find that really disappointing TBH.
I'm not entirely sure about the arrows either, I made one without them and positioned the players a bit different, you know, more like average position during the game. But that would mean Cruyff sits deeper than Forlan and Jairzinho, Alberto higher than Marzolini, Davids clearly further ahead of Haan. It looks really asymetrical then, and the first comment I got when I showed it to Annah 'people hate asymetrical formations'.

Ffs, I have Cruyff, I can't just post a plain, symmetrical 433 without arrows and explain everything with a wall of text, no one wants to read too much about tactics, imo, and I'm 100% sure, someone will vote against me, because 'Cruyff isn't a striker and didn't score as many goals as Messi when played as a false 9', if I do it that way.

/edit:
great post about Andrade, really love those stories as you know, thanks.
 

Gio

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The ref should have given the clear penalty when '...' was fouled and the whole thing would have been over earlier. Argentina looked clueless and tired and I highly doubt Argentina would have survived another 35 minutes of football. And even then, that Germany team was ruthless in penalties as well and our goalkeeper did fine against England in the semis. That final was always our win, imo. Argentina needed an incredible amount of luck to win that game.
Italy v West Germany would have been the dream final IMO.
 

Balu

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Who are we waiting for?
I think it's Desert's turn. None of those lazy guys, who picked after me,updated the list.

Pol 1. Maradona 2. P. Maldini 3. Breitner 4. Zizinho 5. Boniek 6. Ocwirk 7. Zito 8. Ferdinand 9. Cohen 10. Careca 11. Gregg
Cal 1. Pelé 2. Sándor Kocsis 3. Gérson 4. Blanc 5. Overath 6. Cristiano Ronaldo 7. Lev Yashin 8. Lúcio 9. Leandro 10. Grosso 11. Sneijder
Aldo 1. Garrincha 2. Romário 3. Scirea 4. Gentile 5. Kempes 6. Ballack 7. Lizarazu 8. Burgnich 9. Hidegkuti 10. Danilo 11. Stiles
Theon 1. Beckenbauer 2. Zico 3. Baggio 4. Kohler 5. R. Carlos 6. Socrates 7. Andrade 8. Van Hanegem 9. Maier 10. Piola 11. Rattin
Rpitroda 1. Zidane 2. Masopust 3. Varela 4. Desailly 5. Batistuta 6. Nasazzi 7. Figo 8. Zoff 9. Eyzaguirre 10. Hagi 11. Marinho Chagas
Paceme 1. Platini 2. Rijkaard 3. Djalma Santos 4. Thuram 5. Tigana 6. Ademir 7. Cabrini 8. C. Maldini 9. Clodoaldo 10. Voronin 11. Jair
Jayvin 1. Ronaldo 2. Cannavaro 3. Rivaldo 4. Brehme 5. Vieira 6. Coluna 7. Schiaffino 8. Kahn 9. Julinho 10. Mauro Ramos 11. Buzánszky
Desert 1.Moore 2. Meazza 3. Passarella 4. Busquets 5. Makélélé 6. Pirlo 7. Messi 8. Caniggia 9.Branco 10. Grosics 11. Novak
Annah 1. Didi 2. Iniesta 3. Ronaldinho 4. Stoichkov 5. Leonidas 6. Lahm 7. Vicente Lucas 8. Bellini 9. Stam 10. Zambrotta 11. Carrizo 12. Gerets
Crappy/Pippa 1. Fontaine 2. Krol 3. Kopa 4. Vogts 5. Dunga 6. Ruggeri 7. Tarantini 8. Leonel Sanchez 9. Mauro Silva 10. Ricardo Zamora 11. Hamrin 12. Buffon
Fergus 1. Matthäus 2. Falcao 3. Rivelino 4. Nilton Santos 5. Karlheinz Förster 6. Chumpitaz 7. Tostao 8. Manuel Amoros 9. Banks 10. Rummenigge 11. Klinsmann 12. Preud’homme
Balu 1. Cruyff 2. Jairzinho 3. Carlos Alberto 4. Davids 5. Silvio Marzolini 6. Frank de Boer 7. Forlan 8. Gilmar 9. Ceulemans 10. Haan 11. Schwarzenbeck 12. Willi Schulz
Anto 1. Puskas 2. Neeskens 3. Bozsik 4. Czibor 5. Ghiggia 6. Junior 7. Mazurkiewicz 8. Gamarra 9. Seeler 10. Chilavert 11. Carvalho 12. Rodríguez Andrade
Gio. 1. Eusebio 2. Figueroa 3. Laudrup 4. Xavi 5. Keane 6. Da Guia 7. Briegel 8. Lato 9. Zagallo 10. Jorginho 11. Roma 12. Fillol
Cutch 1. Müller 2. Facchetti 3. Cafu 4. Santamaría 5. Cubillas 6. Bergomi 7. Monti 8. Nesta 9. F Albert 10. F Walter 11. Goycochea 12. Ayala
TITO 1. Charlton 2. Baresi 3. Schnellinger 4. Zanetti 5. Tardelli 6. Paolo Rossi 7. Perfumo 8. Vavá 9. Gascoigne 10. Cerezo 11. Carbajal 12. Asamoah
 

Balu

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Italy v West Germany would have been the dream final IMO.
Not mine, we never win against Italy in my 'logical, boring' world like Anto called it :lol:. Though that German team with half of the squad playing in Italy might have been our best shot to beat them in a tournament, but it was also great that we got revenge for the final 4 years before.
 

antohan

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I'm not entirely sure about the arrows either, I made one without them and positioned the players a bit different, you know, more like average position during the game. But that would mean Cruyff sits deeper than Forlan and Jairzinho, Alberto higher than Marzolini, Davids clearly further ahead of Haan. It looks really asymetrical then, and the first comment I got when I showed it to Annah 'people hate asymetrical formations'.
I'm starting to worry Annah is all in my head and a second login of mine.

I actually hate it myself when something that is unlikely to work symmetrically is presented as such. Your average positions one sounds better than the one with arrows to me, why not post "Teamsheet" and "How it will actually work" (the second one spoilered as you need the rival teams to be right next to each other, makes comparing much easier).
 

Moby

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You guys should use lineupbuilder instead of this11 if you want arrows, I found it a lot neater and not taking attention of the rest of the diagram much.
 

Moby

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Also, great story as usual, anto.

Those small in game instances get lost so easily when talking about those games 63 years in future so great to revisit them through you.
 

antohan

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You guys should use lineupbuilder instead of this11 if you want arrows, I found it a lot neater and not taking attention of the rest of the diagram much.
I tried it out when I saw yours as it does look nice. I don't like the colouring tool though.
 

Balu

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I made one with lineupbuilder as well, but how do I include it as an image in the thread? Any button I'm missing or do I really have to use a screenshot, then save it via paint or whatever, and upload it again?
 

Moby

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I tried it out when I saw yours as it does look nice. I don't like the colouring tool though.
:lol: Yeah it is pretty simplistic.

What I liked mainly were two things : It mentions the positions in the circle above the player name, which is actually quite helpful to see what a player's role is just by looking at the diagram. And I think they have a lot of positions available. For example, I moved Kempes around the left side nearer to the middle but slightly deeper than Romario so it automatically changed to AL which I guess translates to Left Sided Attacking Player which was quite close to how I would describe him. I really like that one.

And of course the arrows stay in background and look neat.

Also, just a suggestion, I think @Polariod should decide on everyone using one site so that it looks better and easier while comparing. I liked how he did with the last one where he asked people to make sides top to bottom and the opponent bottom to top. I would propose one out of www.footballuser.com or www.lineupbuilder.com . Never really been a big fan of this11.
 

Moby

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I made one with lineupbuilder as well, but how do I include it as an image in the thread? Any button I'm missing or do I really have to use a screenshot, then save it via paint or whatever, and upload it again?
That is a problem with that. They don't create the image for you so I took a screenshot, cropped it and uploaded it.
 

Balu

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I agree with you on Polaroid telling everyone to use the same tool and make the side in opposite directions, that's really helpful when reading the opening post of the games. Footballuser looks quite good for it and then everyone, who wants to, could use lineupbuilder for a more detailed version to support the explained tactics in spoiler tags like Antohan suggested.
 

antohan

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Also, just a suggestion, I think @Polariod should decide on everyone using one site so that it looks better and easier while comparing. I liked how he did with the last one where he asked people to make sides top to bottom and the opponent bottom to top. I would propose one out of www.footballuser.com or www.lineupbuilder.com . Never really been a big fan of this11.
Oi, that was my idea a few drafts ago, I have one every now and then! I used to dislike this11 but it's growing on me, the scale is more realistic than footballuser, making it easier to depict tactics properly.

That is a problem with that. They don't create the image for you so I took a screenshot, cropped it and uploaded it.
That is terrible, deal-breaker really.
 

Moby

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Oi, that was my idea a few drafts ago, I have one every now and then! I used to dislike this11 but it's growing on me, the scale is more realistic than footballuser, making it easier to depict tactics properly.



That is terrible, deal-breaker really.
Yep, that is a major problem. Shame as I really liked the other stuff.
 

Balu

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I don't think so. You can't even change it yourself, it only changes when you move the item around on the pitch. I can't drag Cruyff deep enough for him to become AC, so he stays FC in my formation, which is kinda wrong.