I can name absolutely loads of manager that wouldn't have led us to 7th this season.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Aye, it was, but I can't see the boys upstairs be compliant in two seasons without European involvement. Especially if he spends a sizeable amount to add to his £65m or so he's spent.
He might have done without RVP and Rooney for spells and most of his defence, but he wouldn't have got the criticism.
Go on then. Presuming they actually want to leave the clubs they are at.
We get Van Gaal in the summer on a one year deal with the sole target of finishing in the top 4. With a few squad additions I suspect that would be easily achievable under such a manager, and in the meantime we are sounding out Klopp for the future. If he's not ready we renew with Van Gaal for another year. If Ancelotti becomes available in the next few years, we could go for him. Basically there's so much we can do to get ourselves out of this costly mistake we've made. We simply must get top 4 next season.
Shouldn't they have done this in the first place?
don't bother mate. It s not worth it.
Super Mourinho bottled it big today and they re still blaming moyes. You know, when we lose, moyes is crap, when Chelsea lose , its their shit players. By now you should have got used to the broken records over here
Daniel Taylor in the Guardian:
Sir Alex Ferguson always used to say Elland Road was the worst place for Manchester United to visit, on the basis "they gave us the impression lynching was too good for us". Anfield was next, for obvious reasons, but it might be a surprise that Goodison Park was the other place he used to mention, ahead of Maine Road, Upton Park or any of the other places where that little red lucifer and his trident traditionally inspired so much rage. "It wouldn't matter if we had Dixie Dean playing for us," Ferguson said. "It is always a bloody nightmare going there."
For David Moyes, it is certainly going to be a different experience on Sunday than he has ever encountered before at Everton, the place he called the People's Club. The last time he was there, a line of stewards clapped him through the front door. The players formed a guard of honour to usher him on to the pitch and it is difficult to think of a more moving send-off for any other manager in the Premier League era, bar Brian Clough and Ferguson. "From Death's Door to European Tours, Thank You David Moyes," a banner read in the Gwladys Street end. Another said simply: "Great Memories". The public announcer introduced him as "the one, the only, Mr David Moyes". It was a hero's ovation.
Football is a strange industry sometimes. It feels like the emotions and loyalties change as swiftly as firelight and, without any context, no doubt it will confuse many outsiders that a lot of the people who serenaded Moyes last May view him now with something bordering on contempt. "Moyes is part of Everton's history," the Liverpool Echo reminded its readers on Friday. "His era was, by and large, one of stability and progress." Yet the chants from the away end at Old Trafford, when Everton won there in December, were loud and vindictive and should probably give United's manager a flavour of what to expect.
It is a pity because there is always something to admire when a returning manager is applauded to his seat and Moyes will not be alone in thinking he probably deserves better. The other side of the argument – and it will be heard on all four sides of the ground – is that he broke the relationship, not them. Every manager has to use his elbows sometimes. Moyes's, unfortunately, have banged into Everton's ribs enough times to create the separation, even if he does not necessarily see it that way.
It was always the risk because, realistically, it was never going to be possible to have a totally clean break. These things can escalate quickly and it has been revealing to see the change in the way they talk of Moyes at his old club.
For one thing, it has not been easy keeping track of the list of players, Leighton Baines being the latest, who have made it clear they prefer working for Roberto Martínez than the old guy. Kevin Sheedy, Everton's youth-team coach, has accused Moyes of virtually ignoring the academy. Graeme Sharp has said the culture under Moyes made young players "petrified" to make a mistake. Neville Southall, another important Everton voice, has described as "despicable" Moyes's perceived hypocrisies in trying to get Baines and Marouane Fellaini on the cheap. And in the past few days, several disparaging comments have appeared on the Twitter feed of Everton's head chef, who now claims he was hacked and has deleted his account. The head chef! At this rate, Moyes must wonder how long it will be before the Toffee Lady decides to go public and complain that he never complimented her frock.
Sheedy's comments seemed unfair when the wall outside his office is decorated with photographs of the youngsters who have made it into the first team, even before considering Moyes's habit of driving to the other end of the country to check out a promising teenager. People should not forget that the 18-year-old John Stones was his last signing for Everton. But then, some people clearly have short memories. More than anything, it is worth remembering Moyes did an awful lot more good for his former club than bad.
What cannot be denied, however, is that Martínez's ability to lift and invigorate the entire club has magnified the fact Moyes, to quote Sam Allardyce, has aged about 10 years in his new job. It is not the jeers that will hurt him the most. It is the 37-point swing between the two teams from the same stage last season. Or the fact that his replacement has already surpassed Moyes's best points total, with four games still to play.
A few days ago, I was directed to an article – and it is surprising this has never been picked up elsewhere – that a former Everton executive by the name of Ian Ross wrote for a public-relations firm a couple of months into the season. Ross worked with Moyes for 10 years, initially as director of communications, and introduces himself as having been part of a four-man team that ran the club with Bill Kenwright, including six months as acting chief executive. Moyes, he wrote, will "unquestionably upset and irritate far more people than he will amuse and beguile. The initial convivial smiles will disappear to be replaced by the more familiar pale-faced grimaces which so characterised his years on Merseyside."
The manager he remembers "built teams which were designed to avoid defeat" and "often – indeed, too often for comfort – stood accused of regarding narrow defeats at the hands of his club's perceived betters akin to triumphs". His conclusion is: "Moyes's fate will almost certainly be decided by his ability, or lack of it, within the transfer market. He often bought both well and prudently but I was once shown a list of the players offered to Moyes who he subsequently declined to take a chance on. It would be wrong to go into detail here – but it was one hell of a lineup."
It is not the most flattering character reference, but my guess is that it ties in with the suspicions of a lot of United supporters, and likewise the suggestion further into the same piece that "the 'Everton mentality' is so deeply ingrained that he will struggle to adapt to life at a club where winning is not regarded as a bonus but demanded". That prediction has become a reality, and it is why we should keep an open mind about what the Glazer family, United's owners, do next. One certainty: after this match, everybody should have a better impression whether his players are genuinely behind him.
Moyes has deliberately stayed away from Goodison until now – "time is a big healer," he explains – which indicates he does, deep down, understand why the bad feeling exists.
He is accused, in short, of double standards. At Everton, Moyes hated nothing more than the sense that bigger clubs were patronising or bullying them. Manchester City embarked on a public pursuit of Joleon Lescott a few years back and Moyes described it as "disgusting". Then, within weeks of replacing Ferguson, he was perceived to be doing something similar. "I know if I was the Everton manager and Sir Alex had come asking for Baines and Fellaini, I would have found it very difficult to keep them," he said. "I always felt the right thing to do was what was right for the players." That was the killer quote. And it was dubious, to say the least.
All the same, it still does not quite add up that someone who gave everything to Everton over eight years is being threatened with the hate-mob treatment. Martínez, lest it be forgotten, went back to Wigan to sign three of their players. He managed it without any of this demonising. Ultimately, though, if Moyes is ever going to display that he is suitable to manage United he really ought to be able to face it down.
http://www.theguardian.com/football...id-moyes-manchester-united-demonising-everton
Sir Alex Ferguson always used to say Elland Road was the worst place for Manchester United to visit, on the basis "they gave us the impression lynching was too good for us". Anfield was next, for obvious reasons, but it might be a surprise that Goodison Park was the other place he used to mention, ahead of Maine Road, Upton Park or any of the other places where that little red lucifer and his trident traditionally inspired so much rage. "It wouldn't matter if we had Dixie Dean playing for us," Ferguson said. "It is always a bloody nightmare going there."
For David Moyes, it is certainly going to be a different experience on Sunday than he has ever encountered before at Everton, the place he called the People's Club. The last time he was there, a line of stewards clapped him through the front door. The players formed a guard of honour to usher him on to the pitch and it is difficult to think of a more moving send-off for any other manager in the Premier League era, bar Brian Clough and Ferguson. "From Death's Door to European Tours, Thank You David Moyes," a banner read in the Gwladys Street end. Another said simply: "Great Memories". The public announcer introduced him as "the one, the only, Mr David Moyes". It was a hero's ovation.
Football is a strange industry sometimes. It feels like the emotions and loyalties change as swiftly as firelight and, without any context, no doubt it will confuse many outsiders that a lot of the people who serenaded Moyes last May view him now with something bordering on contempt. "Moyes is part of Everton's history," the Liverpool Echo reminded its readers on Friday. "His era was, by and large, one of stability and progress." Yet the chants from the away end at Old Trafford, when Everton won there in December, were loud and vindictive and should probably give United's manager a flavour of what to expect.
It is a pity because there is always something to admire when a returning manager is applauded to his seat and Moyes will not be alone in thinking he probably deserves better. The other side of the argument – and it will be heard on all four sides of the ground – is that he broke the relationship, not them. Every manager has to use his elbows sometimes. Moyes's, unfortunately, have banged into Everton's ribs enough times to create the separation, even if he does not necessarily see it that way.
It was always the risk because, realistically, it was never going to be possible to have a totally clean break. These things can escalate quickly and it has been revealing to see the change in the way they talk of Moyes at his old club.
For one thing, it has not been easy keeping track of the list of players, Leighton Baines being the latest, who have made it clear they prefer working for Roberto Martínez than the old guy. Kevin Sheedy, Everton's youth-team coach, has accused Moyes of virtually ignoring the academy. Graeme Sharp has said the culture under Moyes made young players "petrified" to make a mistake. Neville Southall, another important Everton voice, has described as "despicable" Moyes's perceived hypocrisies in trying to get Baines and Marouane Fellaini on the cheap. And in the past few days, several disparaging comments have appeared on the Twitter feed of Everton's head chef, who now claims he was hacked and has deleted his account. The head chef! At this rate, Moyes must wonder how long it will be before the Toffee Lady decides to go public and complain that he never complimented her frock.
Sheedy's comments seemed unfair when the wall outside his office is decorated with photographs of the youngsters who have made it into the first team, even before considering Moyes's habit of driving to the other end of the country to check out a promising teenager. People should not forget that the 18-year-old John Stones was his last signing for Everton. But then, some people clearly have short memories. More than anything, it is worth remembering Moyes did an awful lot more good for his former club than bad.
What cannot be denied, however, is that Martínez's ability to lift and invigorate the entire club has magnified the fact Moyes, to quote Sam Allardyce, has aged about 10 years in his new job. It is not the jeers that will hurt him the most. It is the 37-point swing between the two teams from the same stage last season. Or the fact that his replacement has already surpassed Moyes's best points total, with four games still to play.
A few days ago, I was directed to an article – and it is surprising this has never been picked up elsewhere – that a former Everton executive by the name of Ian Ross wrote for a public-relations firm a couple of months into the season. Ross worked with Moyes for 10 years, initially as director of communications, and introduces himself as having been part of a four-man team that ran the club with Bill Kenwright, including six months as acting chief executive. Moyes, he wrote, will "unquestionably upset and irritate far more people than he will amuse and beguile. The initial convivial smiles will disappear to be replaced by the more familiar pale-faced grimaces which so characterised his years on Merseyside."
The manager he remembers "built teams which were designed to avoid defeat" and "often – indeed, too often for comfort – stood accused of regarding narrow defeats at the hands of his club's perceived betters akin to triumphs". His conclusion is: "Moyes's fate will almost certainly be decided by his ability, or lack of it, within the transfer market. He often bought both well and prudently but I was once shown a list of the players offered to Moyes who he subsequently declined to take a chance on. It would be wrong to go into detail here – but it was one hell of a lineup."
It is not the most flattering character reference, but my guess is that it ties in with the suspicions of a lot of United supporters, and likewise the suggestion further into the same piece that "the 'Everton mentality' is so deeply ingrained that he will struggle to adapt to life at a club where winning is not regarded as a bonus but demanded". That prediction has become a reality, and it is why we should keep an open mind about what the Glazer family, United's owners, do next. One certainty: after this match, everybody should have a better impression whether his players are genuinely behind him.
Moyes has deliberately stayed away from Goodison until now – "time is a big healer," he explains – which indicates he does, deep down, understand why the bad feeling exists.
He is accused, in short, of double standards. At Everton, Moyes hated nothing more than the sense that bigger clubs were patronising or bullying them. Manchester City embarked on a public pursuit of Joleon Lescott a few years back and Moyes described it as "disgusting". Then, within weeks of replacing Ferguson, he was perceived to be doing something similar. "I know if I was the Everton manager and Sir Alex had come asking for Baines and Fellaini, I would have found it very difficult to keep them," he said. "I always felt the right thing to do was what was right for the players." That was the killer quote. And it was dubious, to say the least.
All the same, it still does not quite add up that someone who gave everything to Everton over eight years is being threatened with the hate-mob treatment. Martínez, lest it be forgotten, went back to Wigan to sign three of their players. He managed it without any of this demonising. Ultimately, though, if Moyes is ever going to display that he is suitable to manage United he really ought to be able to face it down.
http://www.theguardian.com/football...id-moyes-manchester-united-demonising-everton
Well the only target for Moyes from the board should have been top 4. And he's failed that by a massive distance months ago. Not sure why we are delaying on pulling the trigger.
Really? Taking a club newly promoted and already in the relegation zone, and keeping them in the relegation zone: as opposed to taking England's champions from 1st to 7th?
Fair enough.
Aye, man. This is a Cafe that serves mainly broken records at the moment. And the worst part is that you either have to serve up some broken records yourself - slightly sprinkled up, perhaps, to dazzle yourself a bit (not the people you're arguing with, they won't be dazzled until the grand Scottish witch is dead and buried) - or stay away altogether.
As I've said before, I fear for this place should Moyes remain. What will we do? We're going around in circles as it is - and has been for months. Another season of this? The place will wither and die, I think. The Moyes threads seems to be populated by the same, relatively few people. Mostly people who want him dead and a few souls who defend him - for whatever reason. Some probably just to stick it to the most inane of his detractors, I don't know.
Whatever else is true and/or untrue - it's certainly true that Moyes has ruined the bloody Caf.
Why are Mourinho and Moyes even comparable? It hasn't really been a good season for Mourinho, but how would we wish for a season like that...
Maybe now people here we'll see RAWK in a different light
Unfortunately we are doing everything that we have slated other teams fans for doing. It's sad and they will blame Moyes for that as well, not that some people need to grow up. Obviously patience isn't one of our virtues.
Fair nuff. Part of me actually has that dreaded feeling as well. Hope I'm wrong.
That has been the most amazing thing. How quickly everything changed. In the past United fans would criticize Liverpool supporters for rooting for City to beat United. This season United fans are rooting for City to beat Liverpool. And now we are seeing people belittle this Liverpool side in the same fashion that Lvierpool supporters belittled Ferguson's sides for years.
They lost 9 of the first 18 under Mackay.
Solskjaer took over spent a fair wad of cash and proceeded to lose 9 out of 13.
They were 16th in the league when Mackay was sacked, now they're 18th and unlikely to survive.
I hope nobody gets offended but i worry much more about the team than a forum like the caf. There is always a section of the fans that needs someone to abuse...especially when things go wrong. It happened to fergie himself as well as many players like fletcher, Andy Cole and many others. And the abuse directed at fergie did not stop in the early 90's. Even a couple of years ago he the target of some scum who called themselves united fans because they were not happy with our summer transfers. (if i m not wrong the Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime were moaning about us not getting sneijder).
So one way or another, every time things don't go our way, someone will always end up being crucified.
PL: Rodgers, Pochettino, Mourinho, Martinez, Pellegrini, Vilas-Boas, Pulis, Laudrup, Hughes, Bruce, Magath.
La Liga: Simeone, Ancelotti, Martino, Emery, Valverde, Schuster
Bundesliga: Guardiola, Klopp, Fabre, Veh, Hyypia, Schaaf
Serie A: Mazzarri, Conte, Benitez, Mihajlovic, Garcia, Montella.
International: Prandelli, Scolari, Quieroz, Deschamps, Low, Zaccheroni, Del Bosque, Hitzfeld, Capello, Van Gaal
Randoms: Bielsa, De Boer, Rijkaard, Mancini, Lippi.
There's probably loads of others too, taking the champions to 7th is a colossal failure. You can still be a bad manager and fail at United and still not do as bad as 7th, even 4th would be poor with the squad he inherited nevermind 7th. That's how woeful Moyes has been.
Obviously a lot of those managers either wouldn't come to United or they wouldn't ever be my pick to ever manage here but you don't need to be a top manager to do better than Moyes.
Looking at some of those names I think it's safe to say you would've definitely included Moyes on that list prior to this season.
Whoever replaced Sir Alex had to be something special for it to work, especially with the players cos we have to look at it from their point of view. Either they'd won something, they were very highly thought of in the game, they have a progressive playing/management style and philosophy or all of the above. That's why it will never work with this manager cos he just doesn't have it. Until fans understand that and stop blaming it all on the players, we will just carry on going backwards with him.
Pulis.
To be fair he's got more points during his time at Palace than Moyes has for United in the same period, hasn't he?Pulis.
Exactly. He includes Hughes who spent an insane amount of money at City and had them tenth and at QPR signed like 20 players only to literally win zero matches before getting sacked. He also just in his PL list he includes two managers who have been sacked this season.
Pulis' head would be on a spike outside Carrington by December.
That's just it. Moyes may be the wrong 'un. We'll find that out soon enough. But the fact is that a staggering amount of our fans have gone into complete meltdown. Young and old. I didn't expect that. I actually thought that our fans would be more...call it what you will - patient, stoic, non-hysteric.
I don't know - it's hard to say something about this without sounding like a holier-than-thou arsehole. I don't like the situation we're in anymore than the next poor bastard. Liverpool are en route to winning the league and we're nowhere. It's not great. But I'm disappointed with the way many have handled this. They've come across as lost children. Petulant children at that. Sorry for saying so, but that's how I honestly feel.
Our match going fans are being berated on here for not showing enough animosity towards Moyes. The idea being that they're counter productive, obstacles in the path or whatever it's regarded as. People saying they hate the man, calling him all names under the sun. It's...well, again, I don't know. Perhaps it's nothing to make a fuss over. I don't like it, though. Moyes or no Moyes - to me the first few months post Fergie have been informative. Let's leave it at that.
He's done a good job and all but Pulis over Moyes is just plain stupid.
He's even less cut out to manage a big club, yes.
I know
He wasn't someone young and progressive.
He wasn't someone with an attractive style of football or excellent tactics.
He wasn't someone with a track record of winning things.
So what was he? He was Scottish, that's what.
He'd have to be given at least 18 months to replace some players and build his team.
I wouldn't mind where he came from if he was just up to the job.I know
He wasn't someone young and progressive.
He wasn't someone with an attractive style of football or excellent tactics.
He wasn't someone with a track record of winning things.
So what was he? He was Scottish, that's what.
Thanks for this. Those Ross quotes are amazing. This guy worked with him for 10 years and is saying what basically every red is thinking. For Moyes its not losing that matters, winning is alien to him.
My point is if he was English he would not have got the job.
Baines recent comments sum up Moyes as a tactician as well, he said the difference between Moyes and Martinez is that "We have our own style, we don't change it depending on the opposition"
It seems that Moyes do not have a style of play but if he comes up against strong opposition like we did against Bayern then he can stop them by changing tactics. This may have been handy at Everton where he was mostly up against it apart from at home to the lowly sides but at United, we need to have an identity, a tactic that works and suits us. Making special plans for opposition players is fine and is something that Fergie did, but he never abandoned his style or way of playing football.
It seems that Moyes do not have a style of play but if he comes up against strong opposition like we did against Bayern then he can stop them by changing tactics. This may have been handy at Everton where he was mostly up against it apart from at home to the lowly sides but at United, we need to have an identity, a tactic that works and suits us. Making special plans for opposition players is fine and is something that Fergie did, but he never abandoned his style or way of playing football.
I agree with this and its obvious that Moyes doesn't have a plan. We lack an identity, a coherence, a philosophy about playing. That's why I worry about him in the transfer market. Surely you can only improve your first XI if you have a set way you want it to shape up and play, which Moyes doesn't.
If we lose to Everton tomorrow he has to get fired. I'm not having United lose on Merseyside while Liverpool romp to the title, and then putting up with more Moyes excuses. No way.
I agree with that. I mean, you look at Mata - fabulous player, superb signing, but where does he fit in? We've seen where he can fit in during recent games, but once Rooney and Robin are back it's probably back to the same old structure. There's no progress there.
For the record, all big clubs in the world have been going with a "feck patience" mindset a while ago in the last decade and they are enjoying plenty of dividends from that. Also for the record, I never bought into that nonsense that United fans would or should be any more patient, stoic and non-hysterical. Considering how fans from other elite clubs inside and outside of England behave, we already have a good indicator about human nature and I can live with that since it's normal.
Having done everything to warrant criticism and insults so far, Moyes is the person mostly responsible for his own misfortunes. People have been begging nothing less than some tactical astuteness as well as respecting our tradition of attacking football. If that is just too much for him, then he has no business with us any longer. Also, people should just stop with the "nice bloke" thing; there's no such thing as a prerequisite for a top manager.
I said a few weeks ago(in the newbie forum prior to being promoted) that as the season came closer to an end, David Moyes/Man United would start coming out with statements about the difficulty of signing players. Everything David Moyes said about signing players(players calling him nonstop dying to play for us) was just a way for him to deflect attention from himself and put it on the current squad. It was a way for him to steer attention away from his disgraceful results and give people hope for the future.
I am good at reading people. I can spot a charlatan from a mile away.
I am good at reading people. I can spot a charlatan from a mile away.
If you go on Google and type David Moyes, the following word suggested by Google is 'sacked' or 'jokes'. Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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