Higuain´s foul against Neuer

[Bazi]

I'm not in this thread for the Romero/Klose and Garay/Kramer incidents, although I do believe that they should be subject to more interpretation.

I know that referees are more lenient when it comes to goalkeepers, but I'm not sure whether or not there's a specific section for them in Fifa's guidelines. I only know the official foul guidelines, which I mentioned in my above post.

I don't think that any of that mattered last night anyway. All I saw was Neuer going in carelessly, recklessly, and using excessive force, albeit to retrieve the ball (which he did). But it shouldn't matter. It was too dangerous. I feared the worst for Higuain.

I don't mind a physical interpretation, as long as there isn't a serious threat for the health of a player (which there clearly was in this incident). Football is a contact sport, but there should be a clearer regulation of it. (manners in which it is initiated, to what extent it is done...)

I disagree with your assessment of Neuer's challenge being reckless, careless and excessive. That's just your personal interpretation and opinion, in my view he was decisive and precise and did exactly what was necessary to retrieve the ball in time. We see that exact behaviour in almost every set-piece situation from the goalkeepers when they crash into friend and foe during set-piece situations.

What remains is the follow-through and the referee's ruling was in line with the general consensus currently applied on the world stage.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Has this discussion with a mate yesterday. Someone needs to have a look at the rules.

You practically can't touch a goalkeeper without conceding a foul, but Goalkeepers are allowed to fly through the air with elbows and knees heading straight for your face an it's a perfectly fair challenge? I mean it's dangerous play let's be honest.

 

[JuveGER]

What remains is the follow-through and the referee's ruling was in line with the general consensus currently applied on the world stage.

That's true. The discussion has two sides, though. The one is the application of current rules. The second one is the status of the current rules. Personally, I do not like how the current rules are applied. If a defender comes out like Neuer to clear the ball and clatters into the attacker, it's a foul. It should be the same for goalkeepers. Coming out likes this is clearly dangerous and should be judged accordingly.

 

[fcbforever]

The way some Argies are acting after the match proves already why Germany is the much more deserving winner. No sportsmanship at all. Remember small final 2006.

Yeah, they tend to do such things, I don't know why. 2006 gave me a heavy dislike for Argentina for some time as has the game Turkey played against Switzerland some years ago.


@Balu: I don't think so. They would be all over their own team. That's the german thing.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I disagree with your assessment of Neuer's challenge being reckless, careless and excessive. That's just your personal interpretation and opinion, in my view he was decisive and precise and did exactly what was necessary to retrieve the ball in time. We see that exact behaviour in almost every set-piece situation from the goalkeepers when they crash into friend and foe during set-piece situations.

What remains is the follow-through and the referee's ruling was in line with the general consensus currently applied on the world stage.

"Careless” means that the player has shown a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution.

“Reckless” means that the player has acted with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.

“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.

Which part of the above do you think Neuer was not culpable of? Do you believe that he was attentive to the fact that he was about to smash into Higuain in the neck knee-first? Or do you think that he wasn't acting in a way that could've injured the Argentinian? Could he not have slightly bended his legs to avoid potentially breaking his jaw?

It's not my opinion. It's the cold truth.

With regards to your second point (the worldwide consensus), it is definitely something that should be revised so that incidents like this one are no longer so leniently judged.

Edit: he was precise, I'll give you that. But he was much more dangerous than precise, which is why I think a line should be drawn.

 

[Anustart89]

I think that the application of the rules is a matter of interpretation of who's the defender and who's the aggressor in a particular situation. I think we can all agree that the goalkeeper should be allowed to defend himself from oncoming attackers by putting up a knee when collecting the ball to dissuade the attacker from tackling him.

The problem is that modern keepers, like Neuer, have a more aggressive, or proactive, style leading to the fact that the knee in a situation like yesterday is one of an aggressor coming into a situation rather than him defending himself from someone else that's coming in towards him. The rules, in my opinion, haven't caught up with this style of goalkeeping, so the refs are atill instructed that leading with your knee as a goalkeeper is acceptable.

 

[JustFootballFan]

I'm not in this thread for the Romero/Klose and Garay/Kramer incidents, although I do believe that they should be subject to more interpretation.

I know that referees are more lenient when it comes to goalkeepers, but I'm not sure whether or not there's a specific section for them in Fifa's guidelines. I only know the official foul guidelines, which I mentioned in my above post.

I don't think that any of that mattered last night anyway. All I saw was Neuer going in carelessly, recklessly, and using excessive force, albeit to retrieve the ball (which he did). But it shouldn't matter. It was too dangerous. I feared the worst for Higuain.

I don't mind a physical interpretation, as long as there isn't a serious threat for the health of a player (which there clearly was in this incident). Football is a contact sport, but there should be a clearer regulation of it. (manners in which it is initiated, to what extent it is done...)

No you are obviously in this thread to cheapen the Germany victory by claiming that Argentina were cheated out of a penalty and red card. If you were really seriously interested in discussing the guidelines for goalkeepers you wouldn´t brush this aside...

....as irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Cereal Killer]

No you are obviously in this thread to cheapen the Germany victory by claiming that Argentina were cheated out of a penalty and red card. If you were really seriously interested in discussing the guidelines for goalkeepers you wouldn´t brush this aside...

....as irrelevant to the discussion.

I am interested in discussing the guidelines. But this thread is attributed to the Higuain/Neuer incident, or is that too hard for you to notice?
(I was also supporting Germany last night)

 

[No11]

Throw in to Argentina, just because players collide it doesn't have to be a free kick.

 

[Pocho]

Clearly a pen and red card for Neuer.

 

[KingNick]

There would be at least an equal number of bitter German idiots if we had lost the final.

I happend to be in Vienna for the 2008 final and all I heard after the match was German fans was congratulating the Spaniards.

 

[Balu]

I happend to be in Vienna for the 2008 final and all I heard after the match was German fans was congratulating the Spaniards.

I thought you were talking about the comments here on the Caf? Maybe I missunderstood, because the German online football community was incredibly bitter and disrespectful since 2006. If you mean out there in the stadium, then yes I agree. I also was at the final in 2008 by the way.

 

[bleedred]

People thinking, if you "get the ball first", its not a foul, are deluded. There are lots of fouls and cards given even if you win the ball and the tackle is found to be careless or reckless. Imagine a defender going for the ball with high foot and winning it but taking the attackers head with it. That's definitely a foul.

If you have a look at that video again, Neuer clearly has higuain in his vision and goes in for the ball, with no care for the opposition player. Thats either careless or reckless.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I thought you were talking about the comments here on the Caf? Maybe I missunderstood, because the German online football community was incredibly bitter and disrespectful since 2006. If you mean out there in the stadium, then yes I agree. I also was at the final in 2008 by the way.

since yesterday some germans and non germans treated me like i was being a bitter twat and deserved all the abuse they can throw to me

i even started a thread congratulating germany that got 0 response from the germans, and i was -i think jokingly- acused of not using capital letters

i tell you, sometimes being a catholic argie on this forum is not easy

 

[Red_Aaron]

it was undoubtably dangerous, I don't think i'm being hysterical to suggest higuain could've suffered a very serious injury there. a fully grown man, a professional athlete at that, slamming into your head with his knee. considering neymars injury was the result of what first appeared a fairly innocuous contact i think Higuain was very fortunate not to come off a lot worse there.

having said all that i'm not even sure where i stand on the foul/no foul issue. Neuer has every right to go for the ball and wins it comfortably, contact was inevitable once Higuain contests the challenge but did Neuer really need his leg up like that? I reckon he could've cleared it just as effectively without such a dramatic movement.

 

[Balu]

since yesterday some germans and non germans treated me like i was being a bitter twat and deserved all the abuse they can throw to me

i even started a thread congratulating germany that got 0 response from the germans, and i was -i think jokingly- acused of not using capital letters

i tell you, sometimes being a catholic argie on this forum is not easy

I know . And I thanked you, I just copied the quote in the 'We are heros' thread with all the other thank yous for some weird reason. I honestly don't know why I didn't post in both threads, but I have a massive hangover, so I think I should be excused here.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I know . And I thanked you, I just copied the quote in the 'We are heros' thread with all the other thank yous for some weird reason. I honestly don't know why I didn't post in both threads, but I have a massive hangover, so I think I should be excused here.

you don't need to be excused, you are acting gentelmanly -as most germans and non germans- but some people here think that they can throw anything at you just because your team lost the final game

 

[The Don]

It's a blatant foul from Neuer, I'm actually surprised it's even being debated.

But then he is very popular, so I guess I shouldn't be.

Absolute bullshit.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

it was undoubtably dangerous, I don't think i'm being hysterical to suggest higuain could've suffered a very serious injury there. a fully grown man, a professional athlete at that, slamming into your head with his knee. considering neymars injury was the result of what first appeared a fairly innocuous contact i think Higuain was very fortunate not to come off a lot worse there.

having said all that i'm not even sure where i stand on the foul/no foul issue. Neuer has every right to go for the ball and wins it comfortably, contact was inevitable once Higuain contests the challenge but did Neuer really need his leg up like that? I reckon he could've cleared it just as effectively without such a dramatic movement.

It is but in most similar scenarios you'd forgive the player for protecting himself from injury before considering his opponent's well being. It was a 50/50 ball, Neuer had every right to challenge for it. In those situations the keeper is held to a different standards because he can use his hands.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Has this discussion with a mate yesterday. Someone needs to have a look at the rules.

You practically can't touch a goalkeeper without conceding a foul, but Goalkeepers are allowed to fly through the air with elbows and knees heading straight for your face an it's a perfectly fair challenge? I mean it's dangerous play let's be honest.

Yes, because they're allowed to use their hands inside the area they have to be judged differently from other players.

 

[The Don]

Utter rubbish. Messi has had a poor season by his standards, the guy hasnt looked himself for the last 6 months or more. He looks and sounds jaded and burnt out. The occaision wasnt too much for him, its just that the timing has coincided with his being completely out of sorts. Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Jaded and burnt out? Didn't most of the Germany team play more games than him this season? The occasion was obviously too much for him as evidenced by his complete anyominmity since the quarter finals, and every other WC he's played in.

Whether it's the players around him or his mindset, he just can't seem to have the same influence for his country as he does for Barca.
Probably not surprising considering Argentina's style of play basically makes them a glorified version of Bolton Wanderers.

 

[Amar__]

For me it could be described as reckless/cnutish challenge from Neuer, but at the same time I don't think I would give penalty for that. Condradicting I know. This should be discussed by FIFA, keepers have too much freedom in some situations.

since yesterday some germans and non germans treated me like i was being a bitter twat and deserved all the abuse they can throw to me

i even started a thread congratulating germany that got 0 response from the germans, and i was -i think jokingly- acused of not using capital letters

i tell you, sometimes being a catholic argie on this forum is not easy

Yeah, about that, I guess you just don't care?

 

[Kallech33]

since yesterday some germans and non germans treated me like i was being a bitter twat and deserved all the abuse they can throw to me

i even started a thread congratulating germany that got 0 response from the germans, and i was -i think jokingly- acused of not using capital letters

i tell you, sometimes being a catholic argie on this forum is not easy

You're definitely not bitter. I think you're being really reasonable and a good chap.
There are always fans who are (understandably) bitter after losing a final but you're not one of them.

My 2 cents on the incident:
I think it was a simple throw-in.
I can see why some people are upset that keepers get a special treatment when they go up with a knee raised but I think that this should not be considered a foul as opposed to an outfield player doing it.

Reasoning:
An outfield player can use his arms and hands to protect himself (as long as he keeps his elbows at his side) while a goalkeeper goes with his hands for the ball and if he doesn't raise his knee and curls his upper body (to minimize the exposure of his stomach) he has a high risk of getting injured.
And tbh i think this shouldn't be changed, keepers need to have all the protection they can get. They risk their health more than the other players on the pitch already, especially if they go for one on ones on the ground (like Cech's injury) where there's a high risk of getting kicked by a player. So they should at least be able to protect their bodies when they challenge balls in the air.
Of course if a keeper really tries to hurt an opponent like Schumacher against France when he hit his opponent with his outstretched leg he should be off with a red card because that is not a case of a keeper protecting himself bit just a malicious action.

 

[Inigo]

It is but in most similar scenarios you'd forgive the player for protecting himself from injury before considering his opponent's well being. It was a 50/50 ball, Neuer had every right to challenge for it. In those situations the keeper is held to a different standards because he can use his hands.

Imo it wasn't even a 50/50 ball. How was Higuain ever gonna get it before Neuer? Still, he went for it and payed. Neuer did nothing wrong there. Should he not go for a ball he was gonna get to first only because Higuain has no eye for the goalkeeper?

 

[VorZakone]

Throw in to Argentina, just because players collide it doesn't have to be a free kick.

I agree with this. I don't think Neuer did something wrong.

 

[kopviolator]

Personally, I think that if the keeper is allowed to rush in with his knee first then players should be allowed to do the same. It would make the set-pieces a lot more interesting. Also, I wonder what would have happened to Neymar if he was on the receiving end in this incident (or in the Kramer incident for that matter).

 

[Marcosdeto]

in one of the most importants argie papers there's an article written by an ex argie international ref who said that the italian ref got it spot on in not calling it a penalty,

that neuer arrived first to the ball and that it was a non intentional clash between two players,

he doesnt say if it was right calling it a foul for germany, but that´s not important at all, because IMO at most would have been a throw in for argentina

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Imo it wasn't even a 50/50 ball. How was Higuain ever gonna get it before Neuer? Still, he went for it and payed. Neuer did nothing wrong there. Should he not go for a ball he was gonna get to first only because Higuain has no eye for the goalkeeper?

I tend to use 50/50 to describe any situation where no one is in clear possession of the ball and potential possession is contestable by two or more players.

 

[Inigo]

I tend to use 50/50 to describe any situation where no one is in clear possession of the ball and potential possession is contestable by two or more players.

Fair enough.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm sorry but you can't go about flinging your knees in people's faces to punch the ball. Goalkeepers seem to get away with everything and get a foul upon being touched.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

in one of the most importants argie papers there's an article written by an ex argie international ref who said that the italian ref got it spot on in not calling it a penalty,

that neuer arrived first to the ball and that it was a non intentional clash between two players,

he doesnt say if it was right calling it a foul for germany, but that´s not important at all, because IMO at most would have been a throw in for argentina

Yeah it certainly should have been a throw in but you know how refs are when a keeeper falls over from contact, they'll always give them a free kick.

Congrats to your team, marcos. They set up well and countered excellently. If you had Batigol instead Higuain Argentina woud've won.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Has this discussion with a mate yesterday. Someone needs to have a look at the rules.

You practically can't touch a goalkeeper without conceding a foul, but Goalkeepers are allowed to fly through the air with elbows and knees heading straight for your face an it's a perfectly fair challenge? I mean it's dangerous play let's be honest.

Absolutely.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Yeah it certainly should have been a throw in but you know how refs are when a keeeper falls over from contact, they'll always give them a free kick.

Congrats to your team, marcos. They set up well and countered excellently. If you had Batigol instead Higuain Argentina woud've won.

thank you dwayne, of course today i'm a little hurt because we played the final game and lost it

but if you had ask me four weeks ago i would have suck everyones cock just to play that game in the maracana

it wasnt a maracanazo for argentina, but it was pretty close

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'm sorry but you can't go about flinging your knees in people's faces to punch the ball. Goalkeepers seem to get away with everything and get a foul upon being touched.

It's because they can play it with their hands, amol. They can't be held to the same standards and have to be afforded protection from the referee and also the ability to protect themselves from injury. Sometimes that means they may clatter other players, no one would be complaining if Neuer had KO'd Higuain when punching away a cross in a crowd of players.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

thank you dwayne, of course today i'm a little hurt because we played the final game and lost it

but if you had ask me four weeks ago i would have suck everyones cock just to play that game in the maracana

it wasnt a maracanazo for argentina, but it was pretty close

Your boys took a few years off of my lifespan yesterday. I'd say they had an excellent tournament considering their results in the last two.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Your boys took a few years off of my lifespan yesterday. I'd say they had an excellent tournament considering their results in the last two.

mate, we returned to the top spot, i'm delighted

when so many years go by and you win shit, you start wondering if your football isnt over rated, but with this world cup i can say we are in the elite

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's because they can play it with their hands, amol. They can't be held to the same standards and have to be afforded protection from the referee and also the ability to protect themselves from injury. Sometimes that means they may clatter other players, no one would be complaining if Neuer had KO'd Higuain when punching away a cross in a crowd of players.

Of course I appreciate the difference that they are allowed to use their hands, but that doesn't allow them to do just about anything. I don't think flying out with your knee in he strikers face is an act of protection at all. Also, I think things like that kill the balance on the pitch. It encourages a free licence to keepers to be able to do anything to win the ball while every other individual has to watch his step.

 

[NinjaZombie]

I thought it was a foul by Neuer. That knee could have taken Higuain out. Look at it this way, say that happened between two outfield players, with the player in Neuer's position craning his neck out and heading the ball away. I'd say the referee would have blown for a foul against him.

Goalkeepers get protection, and it's understandable because they're coming out with hands in the air trying to get to the ball. A fall under those situations and they'd be powerless to break their falls with their arms. But there's a line to be drawn somewhere. It was ridiculous how that's a foul by Higuain. Who knows, Argentina could have scored from the resulting throw in.

And I say all that as someone who wanted the Germans to win it and shouted at the top of my lungs when Gotze scored.

 

[bishblaize]

While it may have been a deliberate attempt to get the ball, I'm sorry, he smashes his knee into the guys head. How the hell is that not dangerous play? I mean if that isn't, what the hell is? That kind of thing can fracture your skull, far more dangerous than a two-footed tackle

 

[No11]

I much prefer a keeper who commits himself and takes everything. How much times have we heard people say the keeper was too weak and should have taken ball, player the lot.
De Gea was much criticised on here in his first season for being too weak, letting players bully him.
Do people think Neuer intended to knee him on the face? I don't think he could time it that well.
He simply commited himself to get the ball which he did, Higuain had no chance of getting near the ball there was a collision and the ref gave a free kick too Germany.
That was the only thing wrong with the situation, it should have been a throw in to Argentina.
Great goalkeeping by Neuer.