UK Constitutional Reform Thread

[Walrus]

This is largely a follow-on from the Scottish independence thread where I would like to discuss what people want to see change in the UK political system/constitution.


For those who have had their head in the sand for the last couple of weeks/years, Scotland yesterday voted to remain in the UK, albeit they have been promised by Cameron to have more powers devolved to the Scottish parliament.
This in turn has sparked some of the Welsh campaigners demanding similar autonomy, and is also causing a lot of disgruntlement amongst the English with regard to getting a bad deal, not having a devolved parliament etc.

Today David Cameron announced that there were to be changes in the UK political system, specifically an answer to the West Lothian question - why can Scottish/Welsh/NI MPs vote on English affairs but not vice versa?

Many, including myself, see this as a chance for a real shakeup of what at the moment is a pretty broken political system. The English control the vast majority of Westminster, which is one of the main gripes that caused 45% of Scots to vote for independence, so they can no longer be governed by a party they didn't vote for (ie the Tories). Similarly the English feel hard done by as we have no equivalent devolved parliament to look out for purely English affairs - our only voice is the UK government in Westminster, which should be looking out for the entire UK, not just England.

My own suggestion (which I have seen others propose as well) would be for the UK to move towards a federal system of government whereby all four of the home nations can become self-governing countries with a high degree of autonomy over all "local" affairs. The UK government would still oversee this however, and would rule on all matters of state such as Defense, foreign policy, and any "centralised" interests which are present throughout the UK (such as NHS and BBC - which all the home nations essentially benefit from equally). All other matters of tax, public spending & welfare would be delegated to the devolved parliaments.
In addition, with the above system in place I don't think there would be any great benefit of electing a UK government separately to the regional government, and thus I would also propose that the UK government would simply consist of MPs and ministers from each of the four devolved governments. The details at this point are a bit more blurry, in regard to proportional representation, and who acts as the head of state.

I would be interested to hear what others think would be best for the UK going forwards.


@Scrumpet @barros @sun_tzu @Mr Pigeon @ThierryHenry @Wolfboy @Jippy @Count Orduck @rcoobc @RedSRM @Ducklegs @Adebesi @NoWinNoFee @Marching sorry if I forgot anyone!

 

[Cheesy]

As much as I voted Yes, in the best interests of Scotland I think that something like the federal system you describe would be most ideal for the UK at the moment. Some good points from you.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I want to see free paper hats given out to every man, woman, child and cat in the country.

 

[Scrumpet]

This is a real headache for Miliband. If an English Parliament is established it'll be as if Scotland voted Yes in terms of Labour's electoral future. But opposing it will be so transparently self-serving. I don't think it's a fight he can win. It's obvious why it's a popular policy among the English, and I can't think of many reasons for Scottish/Welsh/Irish nationalists to oppose it. Symbolically it would seem more like a union of equals rather than the rest of the UK being junior partners as some may feel now.

 

[sun_tzu]

What I would like in an ideal world almost certainly wont happen but there is such a dis-engage with politics and specifically the process of politics that I would want a proper shake up.

I woud like to see Lords reform brought into the picture... for me this woul be best served with changing the lords to an elected second house - my thoughts are that this would be an english institution with responsibility for the same powers that the scottish parliament, welsh assembly etc would have. Ideally I would like to see this house elected on a fixed 4 or five year basis (as I would for the house of commons) and for elections to be held at the mid term point for each house - ie a bit like senet and congress in the usa. The role of the lords in terms of ratifying laws etc would sit with this new house (and the equivalent in Scotland etc)

This would then leave the house of commons to function as the UK govenrment responsible for things which concern the UK as a whole - as such the westlothian question is redundant as english house on english laws, scottish parliament on scottish isues etc.

There would possibly need to be a small cross parliament body comprised of selected people from the NI & Welsh assembly, Scottish Parliment and New English house for house of commons oversite? -

The other change I would like to see brought in is that not voting becomes a fine-able offence as it is in Australia as this combined with a pr system whould hopefully encourage more parties from outside of the mainstream or committed individuals to enter the political arena outside of the traditional party system which may connect and energise people more about the process. This small fine produces turn outs in australia around the 90% mark which all parties seem to agree has been one of the great things about the scottish referendum - i.e. engaging voters so hopefully this could have the same effect

So basically (1) get rid of the lords, (2)have it as an elected english second house (3)elected by PR and (4)make not voting a fine-able offence.

I dont think any of those will happen in reality as it does not conform to maintaining the established political parties in a pre-eminent position therefore they wont propose / allow it

Edit - also cut the number of MP's in westminister as people now have re[presentation through the second house and furthermore redraw boundries so approximately the same number of people are electing one MP rather than the huge variances we have now - Furthermore have an independent process for redrawing these boundaries - stats experts, lawyers, human geography professors etc - NOT THE EXISTING PARTIES

 

[rcoobc]

If an English parliment is formed, and it uses Proportional Representation like the Scottish Parliament does... EVEN in 2010 at the height of labours unpopularity then Labour and the Lib Dems could have formed a majority government (just looking at England)

 

[rcoobc]

This is a real headache for Miliband. If an English Parliament is established it'll be as if Scotland voted Yes in terms of Labour's electoral future. But opposing it will be so transparently self-serving. I don't think it's a fight he can win. It's obvious why it's a popular policy among the English, and I can't think of many reasons for Scottish/Welsh/Irish nationalists to oppose it. Symbolically it would seem more like a union of equals rather than the rest of the UK being junior partners as some may feel now.

The problem for Labour isnt an English Parliament, its the Scottish parliament. If the Scottish MPs aren't allowed to vote on English problems because they have devomax, then in some topics like British defence Labour would (on current polls) have a majority, and on other topics (English laws) have a minority.

Most Westminster MPs don't want an English parliament. They want City rule; Manchester having the same opportunities Scotland has.

I'm guessing this is to stop England taking all the power from Westminster, but it doesn't really make sense.

I want an English parliment, scrap Lords and cut the number of MPs by 1/3rd

 

[sun_tzu]

I want an English parliment, scrap Lords and cut the number of MPs by 1/3rd

On that we agree - and I think your suggestion of cutting MP's is sensible as well if people have more representation at a national level

 

[rcoobc]

In a hypothetical English parliment, would there have ever not been a 3 way split in the last 20 years. I'll look up 1997 and 2001 English results when back from work, but I think not.

 

[rcoobc]

Its an utter mess this though. Totally amazing. The politicians will cop out though and come to some stupid arrangement.

 

[Scrumpet]

In a hypothetical English parliment, would there have ever not been a 3 way split in the last 20 years. I'll look up 1997 and 2001 English results when back from work, but I think not.

With First Past the Post? There would never have not been a majority.

 

[Jippy]

What I would like in an ideal world almost certainly wont happen but there is such a ***-engage with politics and specifically the process of politics that I would want a proper shake up.

I woud like to see Lords reform brought into the picture... for me this woul be best served with changing the lords to an elected second house - my thoughts are that this would be an english institution with responsibility for the same powers that the scottish parliament, welsh assembly etc would have. Ideally I would like to see this house elected on a fixed 4 or five year basis (as I would for the house of commons) and for elections to be held at the mid term point for each house - ie a bit like senet and congress in the usa. The role of the lords in terms of ratifying laws etc would sit with this new house (and the equivalent in Scotland etc)

This would then leave the house of commons to function as the UK govenrment responsible for things which concern the UK as a whole - as such the westlothian question is redundant as english house on english laws, scottish parliament on scottish isues etc.

There would possibly need to be a small cross parliament body comprised of selected people from the NI & Welsh assembly, Scottish Parliment and New English house for house of commons oversite? -

The other change I would like to see brought in is that not voting becomes a fine-able offence as it is in Australia as this combined with a pr system whould hopefully encourage more parties from outside of the mainstream or committed individuals to enter the political arena outside of the traditional party system which may connect and energise people more about the process. This small fine produces turn outs in australia around the 90% mark which all parties seem to agree has been one of the great things about the scottish referendum - i.e. engaging voters so hopefully this could have the same effect

So basically (1) get rid of the lords, (2)have it as an elected english second house (3)elected by PR and (4)make not voting a fine-able offence.

I dont think any of those will happen in reality as it does not conform to maintaining the established political parties in a pre-eminent position therefore they wont propose / allow it

Edit - also cut the number of MP's in westminister as people now have re[presentation through the second house and furthermore redraw boundries so approximately the same number of people are electing one MP rather than the huge variances we have now - Furthermore have an independent process for redrawing these boundaries - stats experts, lawyers, human geography professors etc - NOT THE EXISTING PARTIES

Not meaning to just go after a single point, but not sure how workable that is, however desirable it may be in some ways. With counties like Cornwall and North Yorkshire so sparsely populated compared to urban centres, the rural constituencies would become absolutely massive, which would surely reinforce the divide between rural and urban communities.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I'd like an English parliament based in the north elected by PR and abolish the House of Lords.

 

[Jippy]

The problem for Labour isnt an English Parliament, its the Scottish parliament. If the Scottish MPs aren't allowed to vote on English problems because they have devomax, then in some topics like British defence Labour would (on current polls) have a majority, and on other topics (English laws) have a minority.

Most Westminster MPs don't want an English parliament. They want City rule; Manchester having the same opportunities Scotland has.

I'm guessing this is to stop England taking all the power from Westminster, but it doesn't really make sense.

I want an English parliment, scrap Lords and cut the number of MPs by 1/3rd

People would lose out in terms of representation though by making constituencies massive. it would be harder for MPs to champion local causes if they have hundreds to deal with instead of a few.

 

[rcoobc]

With First Past the Post? There would never have not been a majority.

With proportional representation, sorry. There surely would have been a majority with FPTP

 

[rcoobc]

People would lose out in terms of representation though by making constituencies massive. it would be harder for MPs to champion local causes if they have hundreds to deal with instead of a few.

But they would have local representation in the English/Welsh/Scottish parliaments. If an English parliment has 600 people, that's surely enough?

 

[Scrumpet]

With proportional representation, sorry. There surely would have been a majority with FPTP

Ah right. I fear PR may be wishful thinking. Doesn't England even use FPTP for local elections?

Some nights I cry myself to sleep thinking about the 2011 AV referendum.

 

[Jippy]

But they would have local representation in the English/Welsh/Scottish parliaments. If an English parliment has 600 people, that's surely enough?

Ah misunderstood- you mean just cut the number of MPs for the English parliament? Would that not mean having separate MPs for the English and Westminster parliaments? That could prove odd if they are using different boundaries to draw the constituencies- you could be one Labour for one and Tory for the other.

They redrew the boundaries in Hammersmith & Fulham the other year. It used to be a Tory stronghold but we got gerrymandered into a Labour seat when Shepherd's Bush was included in the constituency.

 

[rcoobc]

Ah right. I fear PR may be wishful thinking. Doesn't England even use FPTP for local elections?

Some nights I cry myself to self to sleep thinking about the 2011 AV referendum.

My only hope is that, because its what Scotland has, people will riot if they don't get it. Right?

 

[rcoobc]

Ah misunderstood- you mean just cut the number of MPs for the English parliament? Would that not mean having separate MPs for the English and Westminster parliaments? That could prove odd if they are using different boundaries to draw the constituencies- you could be one Labour for one and Tory for the other.

They redrew the boundaries in Hammersmith & Fulham the other year. It used to be a Tory stronghold but we got gerrymandered into a Labour seat when Shepherd's Bush was included in the constituency.

I mean, as Westminster is going from having legislative powers over all manor of things to far less, cut their MPs by a third, and cut lords completely.

Then, with the English parliment having more legislative powers than Scotland does at the moment, have a largish number to have a similar number of EMPs per person in England as MPs now.

Sorry, I'm typing on a phone so its not perfect

 

[VidaRed]

Stop bowing to the queen for starters

 

[Walrus]

If an English parliment is formed, and it uses Proportional Representation like the Scottish Parliament does... EVEN in 2010 at the height of labours unpopularity then Labour and the Lib Dems could have formed a majority government (just looking at England)

To clarify, when I said proportional representation I meant with regard to how the home nations are represented by the UK government.

And I would be a big supporter of abolishing the House of Lords.

Thing is, if Scotland can have a referendum on starting afresh as a brand new country - why should we be constrained to the "this would be good but Cameron and the Westminster gang won't let it happen" line of thought. Call me a dangerous radical but I for one want proper change, not just a few half hearted powers and empty gesture and soundbites from the Tories.

The fact that we are discussing Labours opposition to Scotland devolution (which is purely self serving on their part) practically proves how broken UK politics are at the moment. I'm half tempted to start up my own political party and try to do away with labour and the bloody Tories.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

So... No one else is getting behind my paper hats idea?

 

[rcoobc]

Thing is, if Scotland can have a referendum on starting afresh as a brand new country - why should we be constrained to the "this would be good but Cameron and the Westminster gang won't let it happen" line of thought. Call me a dangerous radical but I for one want proper change, not just a few half hearted powers and empty gesture and soundbites from the Tories.
.

They did elect a nationalist goverment to their regional assembly, to be fair, whilst Cameroon didn't have a majority in his own parliment. This was a long time in the making.

 

[rcoobc]

I want to see free paper hats given out to every man, woman, child and cat in the country.

So... No one else is getting behind my paper hats idea?

What is this hats idea you speak of? Is this going to be free RL-DLC?

 

[Walrus]

They did elect a nationalist goverment to their regional assembly, to be fair, whilst Cameroon didn't have a majority in his own parliment. This was a long time in the making.

Indeed - but nationwide political reform has also been a long time coming for the UK, in my opinion.

I don't feel I can trust the Tories to oversee any sort of wholesale change - the clue is in the name, Conservatives.
Labour won't do it because as has been discussed, they rely on Scottish seats to get anywhere in anything.

Who are we left with? Lib Dems couldn't get a majority of their lives depended on it. UKIP? Ugh.

I think the UK needs a new party, a breath of fresh air from the current ones, that can oversee reforms and change for the UK without being racist and xenophobic.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

So... No one else is getting behind my paper hats idea?

Depends what they are made from and whether dogs receive them also !

 

[rcoobc]

Indeed - but nationwide political reform has also been a long time coming for the UK, in my opinion.

I don't feel I can trust the Tories to oversee any sort of wholesale change - the clue is in the name, Conservatives.
Labour won't do it because as has been discussed, they rely on Scottish seats to get anywhere in anything.

Who are we left with? Lib Dems couldn't get a majority of their lives depended on it. UKIP? Ugh.

I think the UK needs a new party, a breath of fresh air from the current ones, that can oversee reforms and change for the UK without being racist and xenophobic.

I 100% agree.. I want the lords to be scrapped, and English government elected by PR and reduced numbers of MPs. I'm expecting no change to Lords or Commons, and a badly cut up map of England for regional parliaments.

 

[Walrus]

I 100% agree.. I want the lords to be scrapped, and English government elected by PR and reduced numbers of MPs. I'm expecting no change to Lords or Commons, and a badly cut up map of England for regional parliaments.

I think dividing England into regional parliaments would be a disaster. But that is the sort of crap that Cameron will probably come up with and call it a revolution. But as you said, the lords should go. The commons can still represent England's parliament - which by nature would have fewer MPs as it is only representing England, and not the entire UK. Even then it could easily be reduced further - have an MP for every county or so seems fine, I don't see the benefit in dividing the country further than that. An MP for every county and then Mayors for the towns and cities who are independent of any political affiliation, that is a far more sensible hierarchy for me.

 

[Scrumpet]

An alternative view:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/english-parliament-recipe-for-instability

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Depends what they are made from and whether dogs receive them also !

Why would dogs get free hats? That's not how democracy works!

What is this hats idea you speak of? Is this going to be free RL-DLC?

Every person and their pet cat gets a free hat. People like hats. Cats like hats. All wars end, solves world hunger, reports of pigeons getting mauled are reduced by 100% etc.

 

[Walrus]

An alternative view:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/english-parliament-recipe-for-instability

I always find the guardian articles interesting. That one in particular though, only seems to be arguing against a quite extreme case of devolution - it seems like they are talking about giving autonomy out half the cities of England.

The only devolution I would want it simply to have an English parliament. I'm in favour of reducing the amount of MPs to something like one per county, and then ideally elected mayors for the major cities and regions as required.

I don't think that granting full autonomy to London, or any other regions of a England will help matters. I may be missing something but that seems to be a path to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I'd like to see the following:

1. Proportional representation in UK general elections to end the traditional Punch and Judy show.
2. A solution to the West Lothian question by excluding Scottish MPs from votes on English issues.
3. Additional powers to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh assembly.
4. Additional powers to the main cities in the main English regions (without going as far as regional parliaments).

Basically a less centralized entity which remains united on key items like currency, fiscal policy and foreign policy. It wouldn't turn the UK political entity into an equivalent of the German one (in England, for example, you are comparing over 1,000 years of centralized government as compared to 140 years in Germany) but it would at least permit some possibility of moving away from the current model of fabulously wealthy city state (London) plus the rest.

 

[rcoobc]

I'd like to see the following:

1. Proportional representation in UK general elections to end the traditional Punch and Judy show.
2. A solution to the West Lothian question by excluding Scottish MPs from votes on English issues.
3. Additional powers to the Scottish Parliament and Welsh assembly.
4. Additional powers to the main cities in the main English regions (without going as far as regional parliaments).

Basically a less centralized entity which remains united on key items like currency, fiscal policy and foreign policy. It wouldn't turn the UK political entity into an equivalent of the German one (in England, for example, you are comparing over 1,000 years of centralized government as compared to 140 years in Germany) but it would at least permit some possibility of moving away from the current model of fabulously wealthy city state (London) plus the rest.

I think you are going to get everything you want, bar the first point.

But the thing is, by excluding Scottish MPs only sometimes, you could have the situation where one party has the majority on some issues (uk defence), and another has the majority in other cases (English laws).

Although to be fair that could be the situation anyway with an English house and a UK house. But two parties ruling one house would be crazy. Westminster is a long way away from Scotland

Edit: csnt type at all on a phone

 

[MoskvaRed]

I think you are going to get everything g you want, bar the first point.

But thing thing is, by excluding Scottish MPs only sometimes, you could have the situation where one party has the majority on some issues (uk defence), and another has the majority in other cases (English laws).

Although to be fair that could be the situation anyway. But two parties ruling one house would be crazy. Westminster is a long way away from Scotland

Which is why separate voting would make more sense in a PR context where it is not a binary system of conservatives vote x and labour vote y. But I agree with you that the two main parties are unlikely to concede their monopoly by agreeing PR.

 

[No11]

Why would dogs get free hats? That's not how democracy works!



Every person and their pet cat gets a free hat. People like hats. Cats like hats. All wars end, solves world hunger, reports of pigeons getting mauled are reduced by 100% etc.

Why would cats get free hats but not dogs?
Ye can feck right off.

 

[Man Utd Mrs]

Why would dogs get free hats? That's not how democracy works!



Every person and their pet cat gets a free hat. People like hats. Cats like hats. All wars end, solves world hunger, reports of pigeons getting mauled are reduced by 100% etc.

Count me out.
Unless the discussions include the dogs then I vote NO !

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Why would cats get free hats but not dogs?

Why didn't you just admit from the start that you were a Fascist?

 

[peterstorey]

Let's get on with a socialist British Isles.

 

[The Mitcher]

Why didn't you just admit from the start that you were a Fascist?

Brllrllrllrl, cats and dogs!