Herrera against Chelesa: Dive or Foul?

[oncehorowitz]

I've seen this given many times. In fact, most of the times when similar contacts occurred.
Good job ref to make the right decision in real time. Definitely a good thing that refs are looking for this these days.
A warning to the constant divers (Young, Januzaj, Oscar, etc)
And Herrera must stop doing that.

 

[predator]

Blatant dive. But it's ok because Ander did it and he's one of the nicest blokes in football. Move on. Forget. We go again.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I've seen them given.....but yeah he played for it.

This but at the end of a day it was a dive.

 

[Sunny Jim]

While on topic..Dean would not.have given us a peno even if JT shot one of our players in Chelseas box.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I've seen this given many times. In fact, most of the times when similar contacts occurred.
Good job ref to make the right decision in real time. Definitely a good thing that refs are looking for this these days.
A warning to the constant divers (Young, Januzaj, Oscar, etc)
And Herrera must stop doing that.

In his defense it was an act of desperation in the last minute of injury time after he watched the debacle of Chelsea's substitutions wasting massive amounts of time.

I'm not condoning it but I can see why he tried it on.

 

[JonDahl]

I am in the minority that says foul. Would say the same were I a Chelsea fan.

Agreed. Think it's a blatant penalty. Certainly not a dive.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Herrera knew what he was doing. Not as blatant as Pires all the years ago, but he did force the contact. Could easily have been given though.

 

[Striker10]

No offense to Dean but he shouldn't be reffing a United game because the press put pressure on him when 'it' analyzed penalties he gave to us a good few years back. That's not right (what they did). As it turns he was correct, though you've seen them given. The press should never have done that and I think it's played on his mind ever since. It's not his fault. We got the same shite with Webb, though they didn't look through each decision.

As for the penalty, you can understand why he did it but maybe next time

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Didn't ramires do something similar against WBA.

Mourinho is the biggest hypocrite going.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I voted both. He played for it but we've seen them given. Terry left his leg out. If it was the opposite end I'd be blasting our defender.

 

[Will Singh]

It was a dive but not a good one as it didn't win us the pen!!!

 

[Robbie Boy]

100% a clear dive. He deliberately made contact so he could go down.

 

[RU Devil]

Depends on what you consider a dive. For me, a dive is one where minimal contact was made and the diver embellishes the 'foul'. I tend to think a grey area exists where the defender puts himself in a position where the offensive player can initiate contact and draw a foul. We've seen multiple instances where the defender was 'there' and couldn't get out of the way and the offensive player made the most of it. It becomes a 50/50 call and the referee can call it either way (i.e. no foul or penalty). Herrera tried to make the most of it and I'm not 100% sure he could've avoided the contact anyway. I thought at worst he should've waved play on, not carded him for diving.

 

[fallengt]

Ridiculous thread, why is this even a question. If it was Gerrard, Caf would be flooded by ton of meme pics right now.

 

[Tyrion]

72% say dive. Fair play.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

To be honest I haven't been able to find an angle that proves whether it's "both" or "dive". Herrera moves his foot towards Cahill, but I can't tell whether there would have been contact even if he hadn't.

Yes, but wasn't the referee right in making that Herrera's problem? Don't stick your foot out to make sure there's contact, and you give the referee the chance to see if it is a penalty or not.

The thing that annoys me is that refs hardly ever have a good look which player is actually making sure there's the contact.

 

[duffer]

72% say dive. Fair play.

28% are taking the piss or didn't see it.

 

[Solius]

It was a dive. I don't know why this is even a thread.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If you foul someone to gain advantage it is still cheating if you get away with it. Ander's would have been a refereeing error if it had been given. It wasn't. We got done by bad refereeing, Chelsea benefited from good refereeing. I am not going to ostracise the lad for what he did. We were desperate because our forwards could have played all day and not scored. It has happened before and it will happen again. We will suffer for it and at times benefit from it.

its not. Cheating is where you try to con someone. John Terry didn't try and con anyone. He made a foul and the referee didn't give.


I'm not demonising Herrera either, nor am I particularly fussed given the amount of diving and play acting that happens in football these days.

But it is wrong and hopefully it was a heat in the moment desperate act from Herrera.

 

[Fully Fledged]

28% are taking the piss or didn't see it.

There are a lot of Herrera fan boys on the site. He can do no wrong in their eyes.

 

[Tyrion]

28% are taking the piss or didn't see it.

Tbf only 7% said it was a foul. Maybe a few just thought that it technically counted as a foul. I'm not actually sure what the rules say about 'drawing the foul'. I'd be interested to see the results of a poll asking if it was a penalty or not.

 

[Snow]

Depends on what you consider a dive. For me, a dive is one where minimal contact was made and the diver embellishes the 'foul'. I tend to think a grey area exists where the defender puts himself in a position where the offensive player can initiate contact and draw a foul. We've seen multiple instances where the defender was 'there' and couldn't get out of the way and the offensive player made the most of it. It becomes a 50/50 call and the referee can call it either way (i.e. no foul or penalty). Herrera tried to make the most of it and I'm not 100% sure he could've avoided the contact anyway. I thought at worst he should've waved play on, not carded him for diving.

A dive is when someone purposely goes down with the intent of getting a free kick/penalty without having been fouled.

I'm not sure there is a grey area. For example Hazard, he often goes in front of defender that are chasing him, causing them to hit the back of his legs. That's fine. They're running at full speed. It's a chance they take by running so close to him. He's in the right because he's in possession and is in front.

Cahill was standing still. Herrera stuck his leg out to create contact because going down without any contact would be too obvious.

 

[Raptori]

28% are taking the piss or didn't see it.

I'm amazed at how high it is actually, even taking into account @Tyrion's point.

 

[WR10]

 

[Eboue]

It probably was, but Chelsea won by scoring a goal that contained an element of cheating, they got away with it, we didn't. He won't do it again, I am sure.

How could you be sure of that? It's not as if Van Gaal seems to be bothered much.

 

[RamblingRebel]

I think this is one of those situations that UEFA and FIFA like to call simulation. We can argue semantics and these 'grey areas' all day long, that fact is the cheeky little sod knew exactly what he was doing and tried to win a penalty out of desperation. Worse stuffs happened on a pitch.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know what it was.

 

[stepic]

Obviously a dive. Come on, people.

 

[Darwin09]

Neither - Cahill sticks out his leg. Herrera is dribbling. Is Herrera supposed to be polite and get out of the way? Why is it his responsibility to avoid contact and stay on his feet?

Could he have stayed up? Probably. But that does not make it a dive.

 

[Raptori]

Neither - Cahill sticks out his leg. Herrera is dribbling. Is Herrera supposed to be polite and get out of the way? Why is it his responsibility to avoid contact and stay on his feet?

Could he have stayed up? Probably. But that does not make it a dive.

The difference for me is that Herrera stuck his leg out sideways. If he hadn't deliberately kicked out towards Cahill, there would have been no contact whatsoever. To me, that counts as diving, since it's a deliberate attempt to fool the referee into thinking that the contact was caused by the other player.

 

[snk123]

Neither - Cahill sticks out his leg. Herrera is dribbling. Is Herrera supposed to be polite and get out of the way? Why is it his responsibility to avoid contact and stay on his feet?

Could he have stayed up? Probably. But that does not make it a dive.

He drags his leg to make contact. And he isn't dribbling - he just has a touch of the ball, drags his leg out, falls down. Quite clearly a dive - have to stop wearing red tinted glasses all the time.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Dive, but I've seen them given. Young vs QPR.

 

[Darwin09]

The difference for me is that Herrera stuck his leg out sideways. If he hadn't deliberately kicked out towards Cahill, there would have been no contact whatsoever. To me, that counts as diving, since it's a deliberate attempt to fool the referee into thinking that the contact was caused by the other player.

He drags his leg to make contact. And he isn't dribbling - he just has a touch of the ball, drags his leg out, falls down. Quite clearly a dive - have to stop wearing red tinted glasses all the time.

Not wearing red-tinted glasses. Definitely wearing "used to be an attacking player" tinted glasses.

Watch the video in slow motion - Cahill sticks out his leg slightly but forcefully. We are talking about an experienced top-level defender that knows exactly what he's doing. He's not going for a full-blown sliding challenge, but he's trying to make subtle contact and get Herrera slightly off balance. Herrera milked it and probably overdid the fall to the ground but it's certainly not as if there was zero contact.

I wouldn't have called the penalty as it wasn't obvious enough. It is possible in football for something to be neither a penalty nor a dive, and I believe this is such a case.

 

[Raptori]

Not wearing red-tinted glasses. Definitely wearing "used to be an attacking player" tinted glasses.

Watch the video in slow motion - Cahill sticks out his leg slightly but forcefully. We are talking about an experienced top-level defender that knows exactly what he's doing. He's not going for a full-blown sliding challenge, but he's trying to make subtle contact and get Herrera slightly off balance. Herrera milked it and probably overdid the fall to the ground but it's certainly not as if there was zero contact.

I wouldn't have called the penalty as it wasn't obvious enough. It is possible in football for something to be neither a penalty nor a dive, and I believe this is such a case.

I see it as Cahill sticking his leg out to gain balance and prevent himself from coming into contact with Herrera. Herrera expects more contact, and he's already moving to make the expected contact heavier by shifting his leg slightly towards Cahill. In the end, the only reason Cahill touches him at all is that Herrera has shifted his leg towards him.

It's pretty much impossible to tell either way really, but that sequence of events makes most sense to me.

Edit: just watched the video again, and it even looks like Herrera has moved his leg backwards towards Cahill just before the contact is made, which makes it a more clear dive imo.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Why, was there anyone who didnt think it was a dive?

 

[Judge Red]

It was a blatant dive and Herrera initiated contact. In his defence, this is how a huge number of penalties are won nowadays, by the attacking player leaving a leg in. He just got it wrong. Normally in these situations the only thing to ask is did Cahill in any way impede him and force him to take evasive action. The answer is... almost. Cahill sticks a leg out at Herrera and there WAS a penalty to be won but still it would have been what the likes of Michael Owen lovingly describe as 'clever'.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It was a blatant dive and Herrera initiated contact. In his defence, this is how a huge number of penalties are won nowadays, by the attacking player leaving a leg in. He just got it wrong. Normally in these situations the only thing to ask is did Cahill in any way impede him and force him to take evasive action. The answer is... almost. Cahill sticks a leg out at Herrera and there WAS a penalty to be won but still it would have been what the likes of Michael Owen lovingly describe as 'clever'.

I agree that more and more are leaving their leg in to get a foul, also how often do you hear, he should have gone down there, because someone gets impeded and they don't get a penalty. If refs could read penalties properly, maybe you wouldn't get people exagerating contact. Just talking generally there.

 

[Shiva87]

Why, was there anyone who didnt think it was a dive?

Yes. I may take flak for this, but I don't think it was a dive or a penalty. Cahill came too close to the ball and pulled back from the tackle. Herrera anticipated contact, and pushed the ball away. In his desperation, he overdid the 'contact' by moving his leg towards Cahill. They were on a collision course anyway. Cahill got lucky that Hererra moved his legs to magnify contact. If Ander wasn't so desperate, Cahill would have clipped his ankles, and it would have been a clear penalty. So neither a dive nor a penalty for me.

 

[finneh]

Yes, but wasn't the referee right in making that Herrera's problem? Don't stick your foot out to make sure there's contact, and you give the referee the chance to see if it is a penalty or not.

The thing that annoys me is that refs hardly ever have a good look which player is actually making sure there's the contact.

I think if Herrera would have been tripped had he naturally ran, but made more of the contact to highlight it to the ref, then it isn't what I'd class as a dive.

Referee's rarely give penalties unless the contact is obvious, so emphasising a foul is fine in my book. The amount of times I see blatant penalties not given because the attacker stays on his feet are ridiculous, even when he loses any chance of scoring as a result.

However I suspect if Herrera ran naturally Cahill was pulling out so wouldn't have caught him, although again I haven't seen an angle that confirms this.

Edit: as an aside I think referees need to make a real effort to give penalties when players stay on their feet after a foul.

 

[Darwin09]

The amount of times I see blatant penalties not given because the attacker stays on his feet are ridiculous, even when he loses any chance of scoring as a result.

Yes and when I see this I really want to pull my hair out. Didn't Rooney do this recently for us, or was it for England in the World Cup?? Why is it that defenders have all the right to use gamesmanship but attacking players are being so persecuted these days for diving that they must stay on their feet at all costs?

My view is that the rules of the game should force defenders to be as clean as possible inside the penalty area.