"Shredding his legacy at every turn"

Dion

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So there seems to be a lot of anger on the forum right now directed at the manager, journalists being opportunistic and dependent on clicks tend to tap into those emotions and fuel them in a bit of a self-fulfilling cycle. The best article in this vein is one by Rob Smyth I’m sure you’ve all seen. In the summer of 2006 after 3 years of being in the wilderness as far as the title goes and Fergie was being written off by many, many people. I’ll link the article at the bottom because for people who haven’t seen it it’s well worth a read.

The article itself was ill-timed, as Man Utd’s form in the second half of the 05-06 season was very promising. Why I mention it is because of what came before that half season of relative brightness. In 2003 we won the title off the back of a good defence lead by our new signing Ferdinand and the goals of RvN and Scholes. We then sold Veron and David Beckham and had our worst and best transfer window ever. Kleberson, Howard, both Djemba twins and a French striker that wasn’t Thierry Henry. Oh and a show pony with a bad haircut, more on him later.

That season went poorly. We came third, while failing to score in just over a 5th of our league games. We score 64 goals in total that year, despite having Ruud Van Nistlerooy hitting 20. After an exciting début from our new number 7 things weren’t as easy and many called for the head of a manager with 8 League titles to his name because he’d failed to get the best out of a proven world class Argentine, sold our most marketable player and replaced him with a kid. To remedy this lack of goals, he went out and bought Louis Saha in January with Alan Smith, Gabriel Heinze and Wayne Rooney in the summer. This was make or break for the manager, in 5 years since the treble team he’d sold the England captain, star striker and defensive rock, failed to adapt his system to his expensive South American acquisition while making no real waves in Europe since and even failing in his bread and butter, the league.

Things dramatically improved the next season, oh no… hang on. No, that’s right, they got worse, my bad. Saha and Van Nistlerooy were ruined by injuries leaving a teenage Rooney to lead the line, a good cup run inexplicably ended with a defeat to Arsenal in the least deserving result in anything, sport or otherwise, ever. The knives were out, 58 goals! 58! Playing our recently acquired striker in midfield and relying on a truly useless, definitely never going to make it Darren Fletcher far too often. Since his last league title he’d spent £80m, not including breaking the British transfer record the year before and taken the team backwards. Failing to score in 10 of the 38 league games that season was the end for some. The man had lost it, he should have retired in 2002 like he said he would. The small mercy being he saved us from Sven Goran Eriksson but when it was known Mourinho was available we were foolish to let him go to Chelsea.

The 05-06 season started badly, lounging in 7th at the end of October and very shortly about to see our captain and club icon unceremoniously removed before Christmas, our only other senior midfielder going blind just in time for the Christmas festivities and failing to get out of the group stage of the CL. For extra good measure our star striker and major goal threat was dropped after falling out with the show pony. A move that validated SAF’s poor choice in horses to some, especially when the show pony had a falling out with our future star Rooney at the Euros and SAF went to lengths only shown to Beckham and Cantona previously to keep him. The club was literally falling apart according to most and the band aid? “A Pirlo when a Gattuso was needed”.

That just about brings us up to the article. While some Man Utd supporters had seen enough in the latter stages of the previous season to be hopeful, many weren’t. The events of the 2006-2007 season onwards should be fresh in the memory for most so I won’t bother with that, needless to say it wasn’t quite what Rob Smyth had in mind.

I’m not entirely sure why I felt the need to write all that out, but there have been plenty of criticisms of our attack and how little we create recently and people saying they’re on the verge of giving up on the team because it’s so boring maybe a little bit of perspective is required. Great teams take time and work, no matter how much money you spend and how many players you buy. For those saying this is the most boring United side they’ve ever seen, they didn’t watch us in 2004.

There is too much short-termism in football and even SAF, a manager who knew the league saw his way through some times with an attack more toothless even than this one. While the acknowledgement that Martial and Depay aren’t going to carry us to glory this season might be hard to take given how much it looks there for the taking might be galling (and I don’t think we’re going to get a Cantona-esque signing to invigorate us in January) it doesn’t mean the team cannot improve under the current manager. Young players take time to develop and while LvG isn’t SAF, he is a very good manager.

The team isn’t falling apart like it was under Moyes, the urge to chop managers at a difficult moment was something that the fan base was almost unanimous in wanting to avoid. For those so eager to see us oust a manager less than 18 months into his time here because we aren’t as fluid as we’d like I just thought I’d highlight a second time where being patient with a manager who has a proven track record of success despite some less than ideal results and performances with young players has shown dividends. Who knows what the club would look like if we’d written off SAF back in 2004? Sometimes despite it seeming like you're impossibly far away from where you want to be the smallest thing or the least inspiring signing can be all that separates you from massive success. Sacking a manager is the biggest change you can make at a club and should be done with extreme caution and when there is no other option. I don't think we're there yet.


http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jul/31/sport.comment

The article, since all you miserable bastards need something to smile about.
 

Devil may care

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Being patient with an eccentric 65 year old who has never managed in this league when the possibility of getting the best manager in the game is there is a very different thing. Fergie had a track record in this league and I'll be damned if we were ever as soul destroyingly horrible to watch under Fergie at any time during his reign.
 

Dion

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Being patient with an eccentric 65 year old who has never managed in this league when the possibility of getting the best manager in the game is there is a very different thing. Fergie had a track record in this league and I'll be damned if we were ever as soul destroyingly horrible to watch under Fergie at any time during his reign.
Try the 11 goals in first 12 league games at the start of the 2004-2005 season, believe me, that was worse.

It's easy to say Fergie had a track record, but at the time that was being used against him. With the Chelsea money and his failures in Europe he was being painted as a dinosaur who couldn't adapt to modern football and modern footballers (Beckham and Veron), we all know how that worked out.

LvG never managing in the league is more of a reason to be patient with him. Mourinho was the best manager in the world at the time. I'm glad we stuck. It might not work out that way this time, but you have to hold your nerve to find out.
 
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Ramshock

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Being patient with an eccentric 65 year old who has never managed in this league when the possibility of getting the best manager in the game is there is a very different thing. Fergie had a track record in this league and I'll be damned if we were ever as soul destroyingly horrible to watch under Fergie at any time during his reign.
People like you are who the reasonable among us have to deal with. Easily led reactionary crowd surfers who willfully choose to misremember the past to suit their views. Fergie served up plenty of dross his last few years but people choose to forget that.
 

Dion

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Is it possible for people here to defend Van Gaal without throwing Alex Ferguson under the bus?
If you consider this throwing SAF under the bus then you're incredibly mistaken. SAF went through bad times, he saw them off and won everything there is to win again. It's the highest compliment I can give him, those barren years were necessary for what was to come after. If you sack managers every time they have to get their hands dirty then you never go anywhere.

I honestly can't see how you could read the OP and consider than anything like an attempt to belittle what SAF achieved. He made lots of decisions that didn't immediately pay off and were roundly criticised that proved to be fantastic in the long run.
 

Pexbo

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Exellent post Dion. Great points well made.
 

Amir

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I'll be an absolute liar if I claim that in the first half of 2005/06, I could foresee how good the team could become. We really turned from boring and struggling in the first half of that season into a team playing good stuff and winning most games, which was hint of things to come. And there are some similarities through young players - Memphis is a bit like Ronaldo, being young and struggling while Martial, like Rooney, is able to produce stuff earlier. There are also holes that still need addressing, just like we ended up signing Vidic, Evra and Carrick over the next few months.

So hey, maybe we're about to see great fruit of evolution. I doubt it though. Part of it being that while Fergie simply got rid of Keane when he thought he wasn't worth it any more, Van Gaal is sticking to Rooney, not even willing to drop him to the bench. That won't be an instant problem solver, but it will help push us into the right direction because I don't think Rooney has it any more.
 

kouroux

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Criticism is part of football, what matters is that it's done fairly and intelligently. I hate to make generalization, there have been plenty of intelligent and sensible criticism of LVG on the caf just as many people (me included without a doubt) have also been unfair. It'll never change, we just have to accept it for what it is.
 

Dion

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Part of it being that while Fergie simply got rid of Keane when he thought he wasn't worth it any more, Van Gaal is sticking to Rooney, not even willing to drop him to the bench. That won't be an instant problem solver, but it will help push us into the right direction because I don't think Rooney has it any more.
SAF had luck in that particular one that Keane made it so easy for him to make a clean cut, it might well be that he would have done gradually anyway but he was under tremendous pressure after forcing out Beckham and Stam. LvG is facing similar pressure and we'll have to see how he responds. He took a gamble on him at the start of the season so I doubt we'll see a resolution until the summer, one way or another.
 

Ramshock

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Is it possible for people here to defend Van Gaal without throwing Alex Ferguson under the bus?
Are you 12 years old?

The United under Ferguson that people wax lyrical about here ended in the summer of 2009 when Ronaldo left. That was his last great team. Its a testament to how great he was as a man manager and the habit the club had of winning because of him that we had success after that. However he did underinvest and choose not to buy the top level of talent you need to stay on top. If people cannot see that then there is no point in debating with them. a

LVG, while far from perfect, is doing a decent job of getting United back in the title picture. Its not fun to watch but United havent been great to watch in a long time. People need to accept the game has changed.
 

JPRouve

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People need to understand, we criticize and complain but most of us are not really asking for LVG's sacking or ignoring the fact that he has done a good job. They also need to understand that trusting SAF requires a lot less faith than trusting LVG.
 

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Sir Alex is several levels above Van Gaal...we were quite lucky to have him, and we probably wont see one like him for quite a while yet.


The reason that article was laughed at was what Sir Alex had achieved at United before then.

9 times out of 10 managers struggling like 2005 end up fired, not go on to win a European cup just 3 years later.Man, i miss Fergie, what i'd give to have another 20 years with the great man at our club.
 

Boycott

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LvG has no legacy at United yet.

Of course he's got a remit which for first season he reached, and now we're a point off top. What is questionable and is a valid criticism is whether what he is building is worthwhile to see because there is not much to suggest significant changes have happened in 18 months bar the group of players.
 

Devil may care

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Try the 11 goals in first 12 league games at the start of the 2004-2005 season, believe me, that was worse.

It's easy to say Fergie had a track record, but at the time that was being used against him. With the Chelsea money and his failures in Europe he was being painted as a dinosaur who couldn't adapt to modern football and modern footballers (Beckham and Veron), we all know how that worked out.

LvG never managing in the league is more of a reason to be patient with him. Mourinho was the best manager in the world at the time. I'm glad we stuck. It might not work out that way this time, but you have to hold your nerve to find out.
I remember that period quite well and the 80's as well, no matter stats we never played this drudgery under Fergie.

LvG has had 18 months and we are getting steadily worse to watch, he basically wants 4 world class attacking players to remove any risk factor of players moving out of position from his orders. Just look at the lines we play most games. He has slowly but surely drummed any individuality out of this side and we look worse by the game, couple that with the fact he hasn't got the balls to do anything about Rooney, something again Fergie wouldn't have stood for.

You don't have patience with a man of his age, he's not getting an extension here, if we have the chance to get in Guardiola in the summer it would be insane not to.

People like you are who the reasonable among us have to deal with. Easily led reactionary crowd surfers who willfully choose to misremember the past to suit their views. Fergie served up plenty of dross his last few years but people choose to forget that.
There's nothing reasonable about you, Why don't you just feck off as you bring nothing to any discussion bar being an insufferable, ignorant prick with no mind of his own. I have said many times we played some awful stuff under Fergie in his latter years but it was never this bad and never filled with the slow unimaginative cowardice that LvG has instilled in this team.
 

Ramshock

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I remember that period quite well and the 80's as well, no matter stats we never played this drudgery under Fergie.

LvG has had 18 months and we are getting steadily worse to watch, he basically wants 4 world class attacking players to remove any risk factor of players moving out of position from his orders. Just look at the lines we play most games. He has slowly but surely drummed any individuality out of this side and we look worse by the game, couple that with the fact he hasn't got the balls to do anything about Rooney, something again Fergie wouldn't have stood for.

You don't have patience with a man of his age, he's not getting an extension here, if we have the chance to get in Guardiola in the summer it would be insane not to.



There's nothing reasonable about you, Why don't you just feck off as you bring nothing to any discussion bar being an insufferable, ignorant prick with no mind of his own. I have said many times we played some awful stuff under Fergie in his latter years but it was never this bad and never filled with the slow unimaginative cowardice that LvG has instilled in this team.
No mind of my own whilst taking a minority view against the dross you and the rest of the media fed sheep suck up. Yeah seems legit.
 

Dion

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LvG has no legacy at United yet.
I'm not claiming he does, although he does have his own reputation on the line. It's just the title of the article which inspired my wall of text.
 

Devil may care

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No mind of my own whilst taking a minority view against the dross you and the rest of the media fed sheep suck up. Yeah seems legit.
No mind of your own as in whatever is going on at the club must be right in your tiny mind, seriously you are a poisonous ass clown in every thread you taint.
 

Ramshock

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LvG has no legacy at United yet.

Of course he's got a remit which for first season he reached, and now we're a point off top. What is questionable and is a valid criticism is whether what he is building is worthwhile to see because there is not much to suggest significant changes have happened in 18 months bar the group of players.
No significant changes? Okay what else is he supposed to do within his first 18 months. Convince me you dont really mean that we should have won a league title already.
 

Dion

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There's nothing reasonable about you, Why don't you just feck off as you bring nothing to any discussion bar being an insufferable, ignorant prick with no mind of his own. I have said many times we played some awful stuff under Fergie in his latter years but it was never this bad and never filled with the slow unimaginative cowardice that LvG has instilled in this team.
No mind of your own as in whatever is going on at the club must be right in your tiny mind, seriously you are a poisonous ass clown in every thread you taint.
Well I'm not sure that was necessary.
 

Ramshock

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No mind of your own as in whatever is going on at the club must be right in your tiny mind, seriously you are a poisonous ass clown in every thread you taint.
How mature of you. If I did a post like that I would have had a few day ban. Interesting, poisonous because I disagree with you? What an interesting way you have of debating. You definitely must be around 12 years old
 

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Nice OP, I agree that we need to give time to LVG, it was always going to be hard job but we are improving. But at the same time I can understand the moaners. I also couldn't wait for this weeks games because if we would win both we would be in knock-out stages of CL and top of the league and the most disapointing thing is that we had a good chance winning both.
 

Dion

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It's interesting that @Devil may care has such a strong view on the matter when his overall team rating is 5.9, which is bang on average?
 

Boycott

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No significant changes? Okay what else is he supposed to do within his first 18 months. Convince me you dont really mean that we should have won a league title already.
Improvement in the quality of football which provides belief that we can challenge for trophies.

That's where the criticism is: the football on display shows no improvement. Toothless in attack and if we were such a solid defensive side too why is De Gea called on so often?
 

Moonwalker

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I remember that period quite well and the 80's as well, no matter stats we never played this drudgery under Fergie.

LvG has had 18 months and we are getting steadily worse to watch, he basically wants 4 world class attacking players to remove any risk factor of players moving out of position from his orders. Just look at the lines we play most games. He has slowly but surely drummed any individuality out of this side and we look worse by the game, couple that with the fact he hasn't got the balls to do anything about Rooney, something again Fergie wouldn't have stood for.

You don't have patience with a man of his age, he's not getting an extension here, if we have the chance to get in Guardiola in the summer it would be insane not to.
We don't have a single one, never mind four.
 

Crashoutcassius

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Brilliant post. Very much against the grain of the thinking in here, but I tend to agree that people see long terms trends where there is only short term results. I hope he will get to see out his 3 years and we give this team a chance to fulfil its potential
 

Ramshock

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Improvement in the quality of football which provides belief that we can challenge for trophies.

That's where the criticism is: the football on display shows no improvement. Toothless in attack and if we were such a solid defensive side too why is De Gea called on so often?
That is fair enough. I defend LVG, but he isnt beyond my criticism, the football is not pleasing on the eye but I do feel with speed on the wings it could transform into a more attacking side. He has made miscues and probably underrated the league but to get that team to be in the challenge is a decent enough job. The abuse he gets on here and the likes of twitter is beyond ridiculous.
 

Ramshock

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Brilliant post. Very much against the grain of the thinking in here, but I tend to agree that people see long terms trends where there is only short term results. I hope he will get to see out his 3 years and we give this team a chance to fulfil its potential
Its really not thinking its just going along with the noise.
 

Manny

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Good post @Dion

We were utter shite back then coming of what was good 02/03. That 03/04 to 05/06 period was horrible to watch (aside from the two cups).

And that was from a manager who had spent nearly 20 years at the club and in the PL attempting a rebuild.
 

Ramshock

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Good post @Dion

We were utter shite back then coming of what was good 02/03. That 03/04 to 05/06 period was horrible to watch (aside from the two cups).

And that was from a manager who had spent nearly 20 years at the club and in the PL attempting a rebuild.
The whole racehorse thing and wanting to retire was a huge distraction. He has admitted many times he took the eye of the ball big time.

At least he built another great team after that. He should have invested better before he left for real.
 

UnitedinRed

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A breath of fresh air and some perspective this thread. Thanks.

Things weren't always rosy in the past but what its taught us is that patience is key. Great teams don't just happen.
 

rotherham_red

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Thank you @Dion I've been making this very same point for months but everyone chose to ignore it, and besides I don't have the patience to say it quite as eloquently as you have done.

We just need to accept the season for what it is, which is one of transition. It'll probably be worse than anticipated, simply because Rooney has actually been even more horrendous than usual, but I trust LVG to bring about the required changes and it should hopefully start in January with the purchase of a Mane or someone of that ilk... I'd be happy with 3rd or 2nd and take things forward next season.
 

ivaldo

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Thanks for that @Dion, it's refreshing to see a bit of reasonableness and perspective to cut through a forum awash with negativity. Nobody is saying everything is fine and dandy but there's some massive improvements made over the last two years. We are a couple of signings away from being the finished article. Yes we could've brought these players in sooner and some of the blame falls on LVGs shoulders but he knows where we are weak and deserves at least another window to solve it, even Fergie as so brilliantly portrayed by the OP made mistakes when it came to transfers.
 

Alock1

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This seems as irrelevant as it did when people cited Ferguson's troubles when he first came on during the Moyes era.
 

Question234

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@Dion

Great post, all the negativity was starting to bum me out. Nice to see some perspective, it's only December. So much can still happen. The league is as open as ever which is so beneficially to us.

I'll be an absolute liar if I claim that in the first half of 2005/06, I could foresee how good the team could become. We really turned from boring and struggling in the first half of that season into a team playing good stuff and winning most games, which was hint of things to come. And there are some similarities through young players - Memphis is a bit like Ronaldo, being young and struggling while Martial, like Rooney, is able to produce stuff earlier. There are also holes that still need addressing, just like we ended up signing Vidic, Evra and Carrick over the next few months.

So hey, maybe we're about to see great fruit of evolution. I doubt it though. Part of it being that while Fergie simply got rid of Keane when he thought he wasn't worth it any more, Van Gaal is sticking to Rooney, not even willing to drop him to the bench. That won't be an instant problem solver, but it will help push us into the right direction because I don't think Rooney has it any more.
I also agree with this, can't see us getting better if lvg constantly tries to fit rooney in the squad, even at the expense of others.