Rado_N
Yaaas Broncos!
What facts are those?Of course they can, but when it goes against facts what else is it but noise?
What facts are those?Of course they can, but when it goes against facts what else is it but noise?
In a roundabout way it kind of is the point. 27 years of SAF should have taught United fans that patience can and will lead to success. Sacking a manager after 18 months who has improved many things, is unlikely to bring much in the way of success and even less stability.Again, the word cherrypicking is being used incredibly unfairly and you seem to have missed the point of my post, intentionally or not.
The purpose of my post wasn't to pretend that LvG will succeed because SAF did. That's nonsense. It's to show that even SAF oversaw a transition where our football was dour and took a long time. And that is the best manager of all time. My point wasn't a defence of LvG or to try and pretend the past offers proof of success. It was merely to illustrate that whoever we hire, we're probably going to have a rough time of it for a while because unfortunately some things are out of a manager's control. Things have been as bad in our recent past, because that's how football cycles work.
Your last point is amusing because lots of people said the same about Man Utd around the time, no world class players, wasting Rooney's talent, driving out the winners and not replacing them.
That the club have made progress from 7th place two seasons ago?What facts are those?
That's a little more than 18 months in though so hopefully we will see similar in the latter stages of next season when we hopefully add the final pieces and the current squad benefits from a few years together.While the years between 2003 and 2005 were an absolute mess at times, anyone with a bit of common sense could see things clicking in February 2006. Some of us did get a bit worried things were going to pot again however, when Rooney and Ronaldo had that thing at the WC.
There is one thing I'd like to point out about the years between 2002-2006. The revisionism of Rio Ferdinand.
There were a lot of times where he was absolutely toilet, was criticised by the club captain, fans wished they still had Jaap Stam over him AND he was stupid enough to miss a drugs test and get banned for the guts of a year.
Those Arsenal and Chelsea sides are much stronger than any team in the PL right now.Do you have the same issue with cherry picking events where Fergie blew the opposition away and then expecting van Gaal to compete with that? 18 months in to the biggest rebuild in football for years?
Fergie had Chelsea and Arsenal to deal with. Now there's Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea way off in the distance. On top of that sides like Leicester, Southampton and West Ham bring a far more competitive second tier of clubs to deal with. Sides who can beat anyone and beat them comfortably.
Its one of the toughest leagues in years. There's no break away group, no real cannon fodder.
The PL as a league from top to bottom is much stronger than back then.Those Arsenal and Chelsea sides are much stronger than any team in the PL right now.
So league position is the only fact that matters?That the club have made progress from 7th place two seasons ago?
Man Utd 1 Crawley Town 0SAF said it himself "nostalgia plays tricks on the mind". All we ever hear is about the swoshbuckling style of play under him which completely ignores the very bad period in the early 00's as well as his last few seasons which I attribute more to a lack of investment than his management but the point stands.
No matter what he achieves in the meantime?I'd wait till end of season.
Poor standard of opposition? Explain Chelsea this season then, City getting twatted twice 4-1, explain Arsenal losing to poor standard of opposition whilst everyone and the media either fellating or lambasting them. Explain Leicester to me then. Why does the standard of the league only apply when it comes to LVG and Uniteds performances?So league position is the only fact that matters?
You don't think it's relevant to consider the factors that have enabled us to be there, such as the general poor standard of opposition?
What about the facts surrounding our actual performances, such as goals (lack of) or creativity (lack of)?
You can't cite "the facts" as backing your point of view and then ignore a bunch of them.
No question about that and they showed it. Nobody right now is in that league so we are competing against teams on an equal level. We can't say, oh, well they are clearly better so its expected that we are not fighting for the title, because there's no stand out team(s).Those Arsenal and Chelsea sides are much stronger than any team in the PL right now.
Well the takeover happened in 2005. SAF started his rebuild in 2003 so I'm not sure why you and @roykeane19 are using that in his defense. Up until 2005, SAF always had the more money available to him then other top sides bar the Chelsea blowout around that time.Sir Alex did not have 250 Million to spend. The club was just purchased on massive borrowings.
Yep. Having no "top" team makes the league tougher. It may not be better but the gap between the big sides and the rest is smaller than its been in a long while. At one point the gap between 1st and 5th was massive. I don't see it being like that this season.The PL as a league from top to bottom is much stronger than back then.
You've just listed most of the teams we'd consider rivals and how poor they've been, so thanks for underlining my point for me.Poor standard of opposition? Explain Chelsea this season then, City getting twatted twice 4-1, explain Arsenal losing to poor standard of opposition whilst everyone and the media either fellating or lambasting them. Explain Leicester to me then. Why does the standard of the league only apply when it comes to LVG and Uniteds performances?
So Leicester is our rival? Okay the money gone into the Premier League hasnt made all the teams harder to beat then? Ok sounds plausible.You've just listed most of the teams we'd consider rivals and how poor they've been, so thanks for underlining my point for me.
The standard of the league doesn't only come into it when discussing United, the same stuff was being said last season when Chelsea had little to no real competition for the title.
The PL is shit right now.
I'd consider his position if he achieves a better playing style.No matter what he achieves in the meantime?
I disagree I believe teams are harder to beat top to bottom than even a few years ago.Yep. Having no "top" team makes the league tougher. It may not be better but the gap between the big sides and the rest is smaller than its been in a long while. At one point the gap between 1st and 5th was massive. I don't see it being like that this season.
United had style in the 70s and 80s how much did we win then? How stylish were Spurs with Ardiles and Villa and Hoddle, how much did they win?I'd consider his position if he achieves a better playing style.
Unleash you're arguing Leicester have been poor I've no idea how you'd take that from what I wrote.So Leicester is our rival? Okay the money gone into the Premier League hasnt made all the teams harder to beat then? Ok sounds plausible.
I was answering "UnitedinRed". He brought up stats from 2004/5/6 seasons.Well the takeover happened in 2005. SAF started his rebuild in 2003 so I'm not sure why you and @roykeane19 are using that in his defense. Up until 2005, SAF always had the more money available to him then other top sides bar the Chelsea blowout around that time.
I don't want to derail the thread but there's an argument about transfer inflation and whos rebuild required a larger turnover of players. The 250m figure argument comes across as quite harsh considering where the club was when he took over and the money our competitors are spending to stay on top.
So if we win the league (or come 2nd) in the current style, you'd want him sacked?I'd consider his position if he achieves a better playing style.
United had style in the 90s, how much did they win?United had style in the 70s and 80s how much did we win then? How stylish were Spurs with Ardiles and Villa and Hoddle, how much did they win?
They also had a great foundation that took Fergie 7 years to build. Oh btw you remember this?United had style in the 90s, how much did they win?
I'd rather enjoy a lot of games over a season than watching drab football all season with us ending up winning a trophy. I never started following United because we were serial trophy winners.United had style in the 70s and 80s how much did we win then? How stylish were Spurs with Ardiles and Villa and Hoddle, how much did they win?
ExactlyThe standard of the top teams has decreased. The overall standard of the league has increased though. The gaps been closer.
Leicester are joint top. On the last day of November. They're very good value for it too. You can use this to discredit our position because "its Leicester ffs" or you can hold your hands up and say fair play. To them, to West Ham, Saints and others.
Fair enough!I'd rather enjoy a lot of games over a season than watching drab football all season with us ending up winning a trophy. I never started following United because we were serial trophy winners.
I enjoyed watching United in the 70s and 80s.
Sultan has already explained the fundamental difference here.They also had a great foundation that took Fergie 7 years to build. Oh btw you remember this?
Yep, we still havent learned feck all have we?
He certainly isnt, but you missed the point purposely. Fans dont have patience, they didnt for Fergie and the dont for LVGSultan has already explained the fundamental difference here.
LVG ain't SAF.
This is in some ways the crux of the problem.United had style in the 70s and 80s how much did we win then? How stylish were Spurs with Ardiles and Villa and Hoddle, how much did they win?
Fans didnt have patience for Fergie because we werent winning. However we werent boring. I dont get why people cant see this. We are absolutely without any doubt the most boring side to watch in the EPL. Why cant we complain about that?He certainly isnt, but you missed the point purposely. Fans dont have patience, they didnt for Fergie and the dont for LVG
I've not missed any point at all, I just don't think you have one.He certainly isnt, but you missed the point purposely. Fans dont have patience, they didnt for Fergie and the dont for LVG
A few banners and lone voices is hardly a protest. LvG is universally criticised by United fans, ex-players and pundits for the way the team has played. I'd never heard United fans booing in all my time as a United fan more than this season.He certainly isnt, but you missed the point purposely. Fans dont have patience, they didnt for Fergie and the dont for LVG
It is like that everywhere in Football it is completely different era than the footballing world Ferguson entered into. People like to make it seem like just a Chelsea/Real thing but, even Barca and Bayern have shown no hesitation jettisoning a manager when a team was not playing up to standard. Van Gaal is an example of that at both clubs. We have to biggest wage bill in the league and a higher wage bill than Bayern. If you think what has been on display on the pitch is good enough considering that I do not know what to tell you. I do not expect him to be Ferguson and not even comparing them but, considering where the club's current standing is in the game this is not good enough.He certainly isnt, but you missed the point purposely. Fans dont have patience, they didnt for Fergie and the dont for LVG
You mean its wrong to give someone a chance then to improve things. You mean its nothing to do with being impatient and unrealistic? LVG isnt perfect, far from it, but he is capable of winning a title. He even says he needs more speed in the team. As for arguing about how things worked out well for SAF. I was drawing comparisons because people have absolutely no patience. LVG has been 18 months on the job and he is getting the abuse I remember Fergie getting in those days. The fact of the matter is he has to be given the full amount of time he was offered to prove himself. And people screaming about how we play when his team isnt fully built the way he wants it just dont have the patience to let him finish his plans.I've not missed any point at all, I just don't think you have one.
You're basically arguing that things worked out well for SAF therefore we should have patience and things will work out well again. It's already been pointed out that this is an extremely flawed 'logic', there's a million other variable outside of simply having patience.
You were talking about teams with style who won nothing so I mentioned United in the 90's who won with style, to make the point that it's not one or the other, it's perfectly possible to have both.
You, and others, are of the opinion that giving LVG blind faith will lead to an improvement, I've seen nothing to support that theory and have no such faith. Plenty of others feel the same, and this discussion started with you suggesting that those of us who don't have faith in him are just 'following the noise' rather than actually having opinions, which was not only ignorant but just plain wrong.