"Shredding his legacy at every turn"

[Red Dreams]

Fergie was from the Scottish League. Just because he was from a League across the border means nothing. It is what you bring to the job.

But to compare any manager to Fergie is unfair. SAF was a one off. The greatest football manager of all time.

As much as I hate LvG's style...I feel there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Hope I'm not wrong. I'm willing to wait a bit.

 

[Rado_N]

Its really not thinking its just going along with the noise.

Yea, people can't possibly just have a different take on the situation than you.

 

[Alock1]

Really ?

We're still comparing moyes to lvg ?

No. That's not even remotely what I did.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

And you can also gleam from it that people need to lighten the eff up when it comes to criticism of Van Gaal. The fact that people were also heavy critical when Ferguson was the manager shows that it happens to any manager. Even Pep gets criticized even though they curvestomp teams every week.

 

[acnumber9]

People like you are who the reasonable among us have to deal with. Easily led reactionary crowd surfers who willfully choose to misremember the past to suit their views. Fergie served up plenty of dross his last few years but people choose to forget that.

Even if we want to pretend the football was as bad the results were infinitely better. What we're getting now is average results and shite football to go with.

 

[Dion]

Even if we want to pretend the football was as bad the results were infinitely better. What we're getting now is average results and shite football to go with.

That wasn't the case in 2003-2005 though. The results and football were very similar.

 

[JPRouve]

Really ?

We're still comparing moyes to lvg ?

No, it's just that SAF after 20 years at United and LVG after 18 months don't deserve the same credit and faith. Now, I think that Dion is rightfully trying to tell us to R.E.L.A.X and that's a good advice.

 

[Cheesy]

I think you make some good points. Even as someone who's been growing weary of LVG's style lately, I do think we should at least give him until the end of the season. What happens then will depend on how the season's gone, but I'd probably not get rid of him at the moment.

At the same time though, it's important to point out that while patience often can be rewarded, there will be often be times when it ends up being pointless. Moyes is an example: okay, we never gave him long in the end, but as things started to get more drastic, you still saw the occasional argument that we had to give Moyes time; that we could unwittingly be getting rid of a great successor to Fergie. It happens with youth players a lot too: players who aren't good enough and have been in that position for years have fans continuing in their belief that they're just another year away from delivering. Anderson being a prime example. I wouldn't get rid of LVG because, results wise, he's still doing relatively fine, but I think patience always has to have a limit.

Still, you make some very fair points about how quickly things can change in football, particularly re our transition from 2005/06 to 2006/07. Chelsea this year are testament to that; walked the title last year and despite some flaws, looked dominant, but this season they've been terrible and will almost certainly not defend their title. Chelsea were another example in the Ancelotti era. Many assumed they'd dominate after their double in 2009/10, but by the time of their terrible form in 2010/11 they looked like a side that would barely even be able to reach the CL.

 

[pacifictheme]

I'll be an absolute liar if I claim that in the first half of 2005/06, I could foresee how good the team could become. We really turned from boring and struggling in the first half of that season into a team playing good stuff and winning most games, which was hint of things to come. And there are some similarities through young players - Memphis is a bit like Ronaldo, being young and struggling while Martial, like Rooney, is able to produce stuff earlier. There are also holes that still need addressing, just like we ended up signing Vidic, Evra and Carrick over the next few months.

So hey, maybe we're about to see great fruit of evolution. I doubt it though. Part of it being that while Fergie simply got rid of Keane when he thought he wasn't worth it any more, Van Gaal is sticking to Rooney, not even willing to drop him to the bench. That won't be an instant problem solver, but it will help push us into the right direction because I don't think Rooney has it any more.

Keane got the boot because of his gob. He did in public what he should have done in private. Rooney is probably a very good influence in the dressing room, despite his poor performances, so its not really similar.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Even if we want to pretend the football was as bad the results were infinitely better. What we're getting now is average results and shite football to go with.

2004/5 by 30th November - 27 points
2005/6 by 30th November - 27 points

Included were a 4-1 hammering off Boro, a 2-1 home loss to blackburn rovers, draws at Rovers, birmingham and Bolton, defeat to Pompey and a draw to city amongst the result.

2015/16 by 30th November - 28 points...

 

[Sultan]

Mediocre seasons were an anomaly with Sir Alex in charge. This cherry picking of Sir Alex's reign to make LvG look good is cringe-worthy, and not warranted.

 

[Amir]

Keane got the boot because of his gob. He did in public what he should have done in private. Rooney is probably a very good influence in the dressing room, despite his poor performances, so its not really similar.

It not, but at the same time, we're not talking about letting Rooney go. Just drop him for a couple of games. Or, heaven forbids, bring him off during a game (and through an excuse of an injury).

 

[Dion]

Mediocre seasons were an anomaly with Sir Alex in charge. This cherry picking of Sir Alex's reign to make LvG look good is cringe-worthy, and not warranted.

Again, not doing to make LvG look good and not cherry picking. I'm doing it to illustrate the point that when rebuilding is required even for the best it can be a long and unpleasent afair.

 

[Question234]

Again, not doing to make LvG look good and not cherry picking. I'm doing it to illustrate the point that when rebuilding is required even for the best it can be a long and unpleasent afair.

18 months into a rebuilding job pretty much from scratch isn't even that long tbh.

 

[Sultan]

Again, not doing to make LvG look good and not cherry picking. I'm doing it to illustrate the point that when rebuilding is required even for the best it can be a long and unpleasent afair.

2004/5 by 30th November - 27 points
2005/6 by 30th November - 27 points

Included were a 4-1 hammering off Boro, a 2-1 home loss to blackburn rovers, draws at Rovers, birmingham and Bolton, defeat to Pompey and a draw to city amongst the result.

2015/16 by 30th November - 28 points...

Sir Alex had given United the greatest success in history of the club and we get a poster cherry picking numbers completely out of context. LvG is not a patch on the great man. Let's get this out there before any more comparisons.

 

[Sultan]

18 months into a rebuilding job pretty much from scratch isn't even that long tbh.

and his best players are Smalling and De Gea. Players he inherited from Sir Alex.

 

[FujiVice]

Try the 11 goals in first 12 league games at the start of the 2004-2005 season, believe me, that was worse.

We started that season with most of the side injured. Its by far the worst injury crisis I've seen at United.

Look at the line up for the Norwich game in August.

----------------------Howard--------------------

Gary Neville----- Keane-------Silvestre------O'Shea

Miller--------Scholes------Djemba-Djemba---Giggs

-----------------Smith------- Bellion--------------

I was quite a horrendous run of injuries until the Arsenal game. Just look at the state of that lineup.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Sir Alex had given United the greatest success in history of the club and we get a poster cherry picking numbers completely out of context. LvG is not a patch on the great man. Let's get this out there before any more comparisons.

Nobody is. Nobody is saying he is either. The task Sir Alex faced back then is not too dissimilar though so I don't see the issue in comparing. It seems fine to compare van Gaal to his better seasons, so why not those that mirror this one in many ways?

 

[Sultan]

Nobody is. Nobody is saying he is either. The task Sir Alex faced back then is not too dissimilar though so I don't see the issue in comparing. It seems fine to compare van Gaal to his better seasons, so why not those that mirror this one in many ways?

Sir Alex had won many trophies prior to the seasons you quote. He fully earned time and patience. The only previous United's managers worthy of LvG's comparison are Frank O'farrel, and David Sexton. Then again, you'd be too young to remember.

 

[jem]

Is it possible for people here to defend Van Gaal without throwing Alex Ferguson under the bus?

I can't think of a greater example of having missed the point of an original post, which by the way was excellent, and very hard to disagree with.

 

[Dion]

Sir Alex had given United the greatest success in history of the club and we get a poster cherry picking numbers completely out of context. LvG is not a patch on the great man. Let's get this out there before any more comparisons.

Again, I never compared them. I compared the jobs they had to do. Even for SAF, the rebuilding process was an incredibly painful and long one. Now we're expecting a less talented manager with less experience to do it better and quicker than SAF did? I find that strange.

You're so determined to get on your high horse and dismiss me that you miss the point I was making. I never said LvG was as good as SAF or even that he would succeed. Merely that even with SAF, things took time and even built on unparalleled success took 3 years.

and his best players are Smalling and De Gea. Players he inherited from Sir Alex.

This I find interesting. Would it not be extremely unusual if players that were amongst our most talented youngsters 3 years ago weren't amongst our best players now?

 

[sammsky1]

and his best players are Smalling and De Gea. Players he inherited from Sir Alex.

you want him gone?

 

[Manny]

Nobody is. Nobody is saying he is either. The task Sir Alex faced back then is not too dissimilar though so I don't see the issue in comparing. It seems fine to compare van Gaal to his better seasons, so why not those that mirror this one in many ways?

Unfortunately, that's the reaction you should expect when trying to bring some perspective to our situation, which might also place SAF a peg lower then perfect.

Sir Alex had won many trophies prior to the seasons you quote. He fully earned time and patience. The previous United's worthy of LvG's comparison are Frank O'farrel, and David Sexton. Then again, you'd be too young to remember.

So you would have expected it to be a far easier rebuild for SAF then it would be for LvG, wouldn't you? Yet SAF struggled.

 

[jem]

As for Rooney, I have a feeling (just a feeling mind,) that LVG is about to turn on him, so to speak, and as we've seen with others who've experienced that (RVP, ADM, Valdes,) I don't think it will be pretty for Rooney.

 

[Sultan]

you want him gone?

I'd wait till end of season.

 

[noodlehair]

The thing is I remember reading that article at the time and thinking it was a load of melodramatic nonsense...which I think was the general consensus, certainly on here.

So it's not really the same. If someone wrote an article saying Van Gaal was destroying United forever, I'd think it was melodramatic nonsense...if someone wrote an article saying Van Gaal had made United uninteresting and inconvincing, and seemed ignorantly unaware of this, I'd probably agree with it.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Sir Alex had won many trophies prior to the seasons you quote. He fully earned time and patience. The only previous United's managers worthy of LvG's comparison are Frank O'farrel, and David Sexton. Then again, you'd be too young to remember.

Indeed he had and as the OP alluded too, it counted for very little in some peoples eyes.

So it probably shouldn't be a surprise in fairness.

 

[Sultan]

Unfortunately, that's the reaction you should expect when trying to bring some perspective to our situation, which might also place SAF a peg lower then perfect.


So you would have expected it to be a far easier rebuild for SAF then it would be for LvG, wouldn't you? Yet SAF struggled.

Sir Alex did not have 250 Million to spend. The club was just purchased on massive borrowings.

 

[Seveneric]

So weird that when it's something positive, the LVG cult is quick to dismiss any comparisons to Fergie, but when it's to make a negative point, the comparisons are easy to draw. Make up your mind actually.

 

[JPRouve]

Again, I never compared them. I compared the jobs they had to do. Even for SAF, the rebuilding process was an incredibly painful and long one. Now we're expecting a less talented manager with less experience to do it better and quicker than SAF did? I find that strange.

You're so determined to get on your high horse and dismiss me that you miss the point I was making. I never said LvG was as good as SAF or even that he would succeed.

The thing is, in 1986 SAF was young and his work was going to be for his own benefit and in 2005 SAF was at United for the 19th years, so the context of the jobs are different and will influence the reactions of a lot of people, if it was Klopp or Pocbettino the reactions would be different because the chances of continuity would be high, but in the case of LVG the present isn't great and the future is blurred, since we don't know if he is supposed to stay, if he is supposed to be replaced by Guardiola or if he supposed to be replaced by Giggs.

I think that this point is important because if LVG is supposed to give a functional team to Giggs then he is failing, if he is supposed to be replaced by Guardiola then we are fine the likes of Guardiola can improve us easily and if he is supposed to stay then I understand that he wants to win soon and buy himself some time and tranquility.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Unfortunately, that's the reaction you should expect when trying to bring some perspective to our situation, which might also place SAF a peg lower then perfect.


So you would have expected it to be a far easier rebuild for SAF then it would be for LvG, wouldn't you? Yet SAF struggled.

The best thing about Sir Alex was his ability to tear it up and start again while keeping us relatively competitive until the team was ready to dominate once again. He didn't just do this once but multiple times. He wasn't afraid of the patience game and built us up over time. This is why we won two or three titles on the trot while throwing our weight around in Europe. Other clubs may seem to reach their potential quicker but that potential is lower.

Too often clubs rush a rebuild or make rash decisions half way through. This leaves gaping holes. Look at City, Chelsea since Mourinhos first stint, Arsenal (never finished one, let's be honest) Liverpool (a few years back everyone was raving about them but you could see their defence was going to be their Achilles heel, they never addressed it. Losing Suarez was the nail in the coffin for that episode). None have come close to what United and Fergie did.

For that I am more than happy to be patient and watch the side grow, hopefully into something special. With all the frustrations and disappointment that comes with it.

 

[devilish]

Many see LVG as representing the 'new ball possession hungry type' of football while SAF representing the old football filled with pace and passion, which is seriously not the case. First of all LVG is just around a decade younger than SAF, he's old school as SAF was and he possess most of his positive traits (disciplinarian, resilience, building for the future with total disregard on whether he'll live to enjoy the fruit of his works) and negative ones (stubborness, ideological BS). The wording and obsessions may be different but SAF obsessions (including him totally ignoring the defense during the period between Stam and Rio and then CM towards the end of his career, not to forget the 'value' strategy which kept popping out including the 2005-06 season) were equally frustrating as LVG's 'philosophy'. LVG may play at a lower tempo than SAF but there's absolutely no generation gap between the two in terms of management and character. Secondly while they both believe in entertaining the crowd, they'd rather win than entertain. Not every SAF's team was entertaining. His last team was as creative and entertaining as watching paint drying up.

I believe that LVG is doing a decent job. However considering his age and his obsessions, we'll be foolish not to try to get Guardiola or Ancelotti before it is too late. The last thing we want is for next year to end and we will be forced to appoint a naive manager with no idea of managing a big club or winning on a managerial level just because all the best managers had been taken up (Im not referring to Giggs but our bad experience with Moyes, oh well, they both have similar traits so I may be referring to both)

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Great post @Dion

Some people are never happy. Fair enough the football is awful to watch but we're doing well in the league in a season where the top sides have really struggled. OK we haven't been brilliant in the cups but for me a title challenge is all that matters.

 

[UnitedinRed]

The thing is, in 1986 SAF was young and his work was going to be for his own benefit and in 2005 SAF was at United for the 19th years, so the context of the jobs are different and will influence the reactions of a lot of people, if it was Klopp or Pocbettino the reactions would be different because the chances of continuity would be high, but in the case of LVG the present isn't great and the future is blurred, since we don't know if he is supposed to stay, if he is supposed to be replaced by Guardiola or if he supposed to be replaced by Giggs.

I think that this point is important because if LVG is supposed to give a functional team to Giggs then he is failing, if he is supposed to be replaced by Guardiola then we are fine the likes of Guardiola can improve us easily and if he is supposed to stay then I understand that he wants to win soon and buy himself some time and tranquility.

I think van Gaal was brought in to lead us through the next few years in a similar fashion to Fergie. An experienced man with an eye for building a club. Someone who isnt afraid to take risks (playing so many youngsters, not signing players for the sake of it because prime targets weren't available etc are risks) and has full control of the footballing side.

 

[roykeane19]

I never understood cherry picking 2 completely different people and events, and saying "look, this happened here, and outcome turned out good, so with all the million different variables, this scenario happening now in a totally different time, will have almost the same outcome"

Firstly when SAF was struggling for whatever reason the Glazers had just taken over, SAF curbed his spending, and still managed to finish now lower than 3rd position, all this with competeing against a young Mourinho, and having new found gas money, where they went on a spending spree the likes of which the PL had not seen at that time. Chelsea had a very strong and powerful team that time, and yet SAF still finished no lower than 3rd

Whereas LVG has spent 250mill in space of a year, and the football is rubbish, not one world class player in the squad, and the quality we do have are being severely underutilised, hes not getting the best out of the players he has at his disposal, you could even say alot of the attacking players have regressed

 

[Dion]

I never understood cherry picking 2 completely different people and events, and saying "look, this happened here, and outcome turned out good, so with all the million different variables, this scenario happening now in a totally different time, will have almost the same outcome"

Firstly when SAF was struggling for whatever reason the Glazers had just taken over, SAF curbed his spending, and still managed to finish now lower than 3rd position, all this with competeing against a young Mourinho, and having new found gas money, where they went on a spending spree the likes of which the PL had not seen at that time. Chelsea had a very strong and powerful team that time, and yet SAF still finished no lower than 3rd

Whereas LVG has spent 250mill in space of a year, and the football is rubbish, not one world class player in the squad, and the quality we do have are being severely underutilised, hes not getting the best out of the players he has at his disposal, you could even say alot of the attacking players have regressed

Again, the word cherrypicking is being used incredibly unfairly and you seem to have missed the point of my post, intentionally or not.

The purpose of my post wasn't to pretend that LvG will succeed because SAF did. That's nonsense. It's to show that even SAF oversaw a transition where our football was dour and took a long time. And that is the best manager of all time. My point wasn't a defence of LvG or to try and pretend the past offers proof of success. It was merely to illustrate that whoever we hire, we're probably going to have a rough time of it for a while because unfortunately some things are out of a manager's control. Things have been as bad in our recent past, because that's how football cycles work.

Your last point is amusing because lots of people said the same about Man Utd around the time, no world class players, wasting Rooney's talent, driving out the winners and not replacing them.

 

[UnitedinRed]

I never understood cherry picking 2 completely different people and events, and saying "look, this happened here, and outcome turned out good, so with all the million different variables, this scenario happening now in a totally different time, will have almost the same outcome"

Firstly when SAF was struggling for whatever reason the Glazers had just taken over, SAF curbed his spending, and still managed to finish now lower than 3rd position, all this with competeing against a young Mourinho, and having new found gas money, where they went on a spending spree the likes of which the PL had not seen at that time. Chelsea had a very strong and powerful team that time, and yet SAF still finished no lower than 3rd

Whereas LVG has spent 250mill in space of a year, and the football is rubbish, not one world class player in the squad, and the quality we do have are being severely underutilised, hes not getting the best out of the players he has at his disposal, you could even say alot of the attacking players have regressed

Do you have the same issue with cherry picking events where Fergie blew the opposition away and then expecting van Gaal to compete with that? 18 months in to the biggest rebuild in football for years?

Fergie had Chelsea and Arsenal to deal with. Now there's Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea way off in the distance. On top of that sides like Leicester, Southampton and West Ham bring a far more competitive second tier of clubs to deal with. Sides who can beat anyone and beat them comfortably.

Its one of the toughest leagues in years. There's no break away group, no real cannon fodder.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Good post mate, I was on Redissue fourms during that time period and half of them were calling Sir Alex all sorts of names and voicing he'd lost it, none will admit to it now however.

 

[.Rossi]

While the years between 2003 and 2005 were an absolute mess at times, anyone with a bit of common sense could see things clicking in February 2006. Some of us did get a bit worried things were going to pot again however, when Rooney and Ronaldo had that thing at the WC.

There is one thing I'd like to point out about the years between 2002-2006. The revisionism of Rio Ferdinand.
There were a lot of times where he was absolutely toilet, was criticised by the club captain, fans wished they still had Jaap Stam over him AND he was stupid enough to miss a drugs test and get banned for the guts of a year.

 

[Ramshock]

Yea, people can't possibly just have a different take on the situation than you.

Of course they can, but when it goes against facts what else is it but noise?