So theres no culture of instant gratification these days then? The whole argument is moot anyway. Van Gaal will be here up until the end of next season then we shall see what Giggsy can do.
"Shredding his legacy at every turn"
- Thread starter Dion
- Start date
If his team isnt playing the way he wants it to, who's bloody fault is that? He's spent a colossal amount of money and had three transfer windows to get the team playing the way he wants it to.
Great managers get the best out of what's available to them. LVG seems to need perfection handed to him on a plate or he can't get what he wants.
We are essentially a team which is very much a work in progress
Blind faith? There are plenty of positives around van Gaals time here so far to base any optimism on.
What position are Chelsea in?
So giving time to Sir Alex should be template for LvG to be given the same grace? By the same logic no manager should ever be sacked within 3 years.
It's not just blind faith though - LvG has a pretty outstanding track record of success and I can see a huge improvement since he first arrived, so to me its pretty obvious that given more time he will improve us further. He said himself that we are not yet where he wants us to be in the attack so its a work in progress.
Not true. Im not criticising him at all. Many more like me, even just on the board.
If these people were at Bayern and Barca's boards Frank Rijkaard would still be at Barca and Ottmar Hitzfeld would still be at Bayern.
They won the Premiership last year. If LvG had done the same last year we'd have put the present down to some anomaly.
True.
No the poster said great managers get the best out of players available to them. Mourinho is a great manager.
LVG isnt universally criticized.
And United had to rebuild after Fergie left and the Moyes mess, the current manager should be given backing and patience to improve the club. He is making improvements but his style of play is the problem
Even Moyes had fans. I understand some people not wanting to change managers like other teams.
He has mostly got the best out of players. This season is an anomaly. That's my point.
Maybe van Gaal is currently getting the best out of this side currently. Suggesting its a few pieces and a bit of time short of completion. We don't yet know what its capable of so its impossible to know.
I'm not saying its playing to its full potential. It clearly isn't but that's largely down to the form of a number of players as well as van Gaal.
@Dion
Alan Smith, the midfield destroyer.. and Bellion, what a player.
Good history lesson to put things back into perspective.
Alan Smith, the midfield destroyer.. and Bellion, what a player.
Good history lesson to put things back into perspective.
I wasnt replying to you it was to Rado N. I guess LVG has mostly got the best out of his players during his career then too.
Depends on the situation. A Moyes like season would almost certainly lead to a sacking. I wouldnt want us to start sacking managers who have us competing though. Not within 2 or 3 years anyway.
And why shouldn't we use the Sir Alex template? Its proven is it not? The next best option is to have a succession of managers follow similar traditions ala Barcelona and Bayern in recent years. So why is it wrong to do?
Sir Alex was special. Once in a lifetime. You cannot have him as a template.
Barca, Munich, and Real haven't really done so badly with their policy of rotating managers.
Barcelona have a clear structure in place though. It goes through the whole club. Bayern have in many ways looked at that and tried to emulate it in the past 7 or 8 years. Madrid is a circus frankly. The others change manager but continue in much the same way rather than tearing it up.
And Fergie was. However nobody knew this 30 years ago. I'm not saying van Gaals going to replicate that in any way in the long term but I think he brings several qualities for the short term. Its going to be 3 years after all. In hindsight the club realised it managed Fergies retirement horribly so we're looking to correct that.
Come on mate - you cant seriously be putting forward Real as a good example of dealing with managers? They chop and change for no reason at all, Id hate us to ever go that way
I can understand why some are complaining about the style and entertainment value, but given our current position, talk of getting rid of Van Gaal is way OTT in my opinion
Good post.
The bolded bit seems to have got lost on fans. Even whilst SAF was here and winning, we all wanted us to be more dominating in possession and passing, closer to Barcelona. We all knew that until we were, we would never be able to compete with them.
So while I understand the frustrations of how we're playing, discarding possession football completely for 'how it was', will take us back to a post 2009 level. Good but not elite and certainly not able to compete with Bayern or Barca.
Shame some fans can't see this or have forgotten.
I find it odd people are continually coming in here and going "great op", the OP hasn't come up with anything insightful or original, this thread is just a repackaged fancy and slightly boring version of numerous other threads and posts in this forum that basically go.....
"Hey, look at me guys, I'm a better fan than all of you because I'm not moaning, I'm backing the manager, you should too, now here's a load of stuff I'm going to use completely out of context and most of which is irrelevant, to illustrate my point".
"Hey, look at me guys, I'm a better fan than all of you because I'm not moaning, I'm backing the manager, you should too, now here's a load of stuff I'm going to use completely out of context and most of which is irrelevant, to illustrate my point".
His track record is all well and good, but he's shown me nothing to suggest he can get our attack functioning in any kind of desirable manner.
Everything I see from United going forward is horrible, and he's has 3 windows and a tremendous amount of money to change that. In fact if anything he seems to blunt the creative instinct of our attacking players.
Yes, Real is a bad example. However, they're still infinitely better to watch than United at present and getting the results despite being a managerial circus.
Just in case it hasn't already been said (and I can't be arsed trolling this whole thread)
Rob Smyth... time has proven you to be a complete and utter dickhead. You couldn't have been more wrong if you had tried.
3 windows is nothing, he's not got the attacking players he wants yet and the likes of Rooney/Memphis are letting us down on a weekly basis. LvG has talked himself about the areas he still wants to improve, the defence is sorted and now the attack is being worked on. You dont win what he has without knowing how to get a team scoring goals.
For one reason or another, we havent managed to have a settled foward unit all season - it often feels a bit like 2steps forward and 1step back due to injuries etc but Im convinced we will get there and start seeing a improvement in the attacking play.
Excellent post @Dion - people just aren't patient is the truth. It's quite clear LVG has laid the foundations, the walls are in place and now we're looking for the finishing touch like Cantona or a Ronaldo turning the corner and becoming world class.
The only thing that needs to be rectified and strengthened this summer is the attack, we know it and the club will do something about it.
Muppet juices already flowing.
The only thing that needs to be rectified and strengthened this summer is the attack, we know it and the club will do something about it.
Muppet juices already flowing.
And the circumstances completely different. Compare the squads and budgets available if you must compare.
The facts being what?
SAF had 20 years at the club by that point to build the squad he wanted, or is it not as simple as that? I figured...
And he spent 30m on Veron, 20m on RvN, 30m on Rio, 30m on Rooney etc... with inflation thats about what LvG has spent.
what many are unhappy with is how we are playing. As for strengthening, we need to strengthen both midfield and our strike force.
Excellent OP, @Dion.
Not a direct comparison with SAF at all, but a nice way of (trying) to introduce some much-needed perspective.....
Not a direct comparison with SAF at all, but a nice way of (trying) to introduce some much-needed perspective.....
Very good post @Dion. Brings a much needed perspective to much of the common sentiment in this forum at this point. There are some things criticise about the current team and set up, but there also are many mitigating factors to consider. Fans being fans and humans being humans, we are seeing the history of knee-jerk, short-term bias repeat itself.
Why not then, show all the stats and facts that are relevant? Not just the goals, but also the defensive stats? After all, football is about more than just attack?
Agree but if we choose only to focus on the negatives and ignore the positives, he will never have a legacy. Similarly before SAF came to Utd, he had no legacy too, just a track record in Scotland (guess what, LVG too, in other leagues). But he was allowed to see his plans materialize.
This bolded part here simply shows how much you lap up from the media. Mata moves out of position a lot. Memphis and Martial take risks and lose the ball a lot. Di Maria used to lose possession easily as well. This "cowardly no-risk mentality" is something drummed up by the media to beat LVG with and guys like you lap it up. I do agree with the part about Rooney though, I am not sure why Rooney is being coddled.
OP is simply an example of how the short-term bias of fans could be wrong and highlights that patience has it merits. The only reason mediocre seasons under SAF were an anomaly was because he had time. If he was fired in the first 6 years, mediocre seasons would have been all of SAF's legacy at United.
I am surprised at you Sultan, as you normally have very balanced view. I see LVG has really touched a raw nerve with you. Using this old, grandfatherly United fan point as a criticism serves no purpose. As before Sir Alex, earned that time and patience, but he did not earn it over 18months, he earned it over more than a decade.
This 250mill thing again. At the risk of sounding RAWK, what's the net spend? And what's the net increase/decrease in wage bill over this time? Looking at one top-line figure serves no purpose. Let's also not pretend that SAF gets the best out of every player he buys.
Very true. Fans can't even wait till February now. Rio got a lot of stick at that time. There is a lot of positive nostalgic bias and revisionism going on. I think LVG and the board know this, that's why the seeming focus only on results, because if we start to win something, you'd be sure in 2025 fans will be claiming how LVG's team were control possession so well, playing with such tactical nous and discipline and why can't the current fecking manager do the same?
This forum has mangled the definition of facts and confused what statistics really are. That we progressed from 7th to 4th is a fact. That we play in a boring fashion is an opinion. The opposition being poor is one of the silliest argument, how do you know the opposition then wasn't poorer?
Why not then, show all the stats and facts that are relevant? Not just the goals, but also the defensive stats? After all, football is about more than just attack?
Good post @sammsky1. More eloquent that I could ever write, and especially the bolded part. We have a lot of knowledgeable and loyal United fans (like @Sultan) that I respect for their balanced views but when it comes to LVG, the vision is narrowed to only focus on the negatives and even some positives are negatively construed. I must say again, I don't like the brand of football; it is a snooze fest mostly, but I cannot ignore that a good foundation has been built and our results show progress. It is similar with fans asking the manager to discard formation and tactics the first time it doesn't work. It is almost as if time doesn't exist for many people.
Precisely. I am not one for conspiracy theories but I am beginning to think there is some underhanded political agenda against LVG, possibly to enhance Gigg's position as successor.
Universally is inacurrate. LVG has been criticised and he has been praised too. Let's not ignore ex-players of LVG that have praised his methods too.
Why is the present an anomaly? It is not like we are languishing in 12th place. We are still in the top 4 no?
I thought that would be what 90% of the replies were about when I wrote the OP to be honest!
The OP makes some valid points. And yes, I personally have been knee jerk at times.
However, every time I see the team playing in injury time while we are chasing a game or trying to look for a winner, I cringe. I would have been happier had we been lower down the table but the players would look like they actually care. Right now they look like bots on the field playing like a computer program. No creativity, no taking people on, not taking any risks etc. It simply takes the fun out of watching the game and believe it or not, at the end of the day, football should be about entertaining the fans.
However, every time I see the team playing in injury time while we are chasing a game or trying to look for a winner, I cringe. I would have been happier had we been lower down the table but the players would look like they actually care. Right now they look like bots on the field playing like a computer program. No creativity, no taking people on, not taking any risks etc. It simply takes the fun out of watching the game and believe it or not, at the end of the day, football should be about entertaining the fans.
You know, I was always willing to cut Smyth some slack for that article; after all, anyone can be wrong, and we were coming off several trophy-less seasons. But then you listen to this, recorded during the first SAF-Rooney standoff in Fall 2010. Listen from about the 2 minute mark: http://www.theguardian.com/football...21/football-weekly-extra-podcast-wayne-rooney
The guy is clearly a sky-is-falling alarmist who clearly didn't learn from his previous feckup.
The guy is clearly a sky-is-falling alarmist who clearly didn't learn from his previous feckup.
A choice quote from that podcast: "I'd be astonished if Fergie ever won another title." He won 2 of the next 3, with the miss coming on goal difference. Well-done Rob.
2003-2004:
1. Arsenal --- 90pts
2. Chelsea --- 79pts
3. Manchester United --- 75pts
4. Liverpool --- 60pts
2004-2005:
1. Chelsea --- 95pts
2. Arsenal --- 83pts
3. Manchester United --- 77pts
4. Everton --- 61pts
2005-2006:
1. Chelsea --- 91pts
2. Manchester United --- 83pts
3. Liverpool --- 82pts
4. Arsenal --- 67pts
Context wise what is important to note here is that during Fergie's "dark" years he competed against the two best teams in the history of the PL barring his own vintages, Wenger's Invincibles and Maureen's Chelsea. The comparison between Fergie's competition back then, and LVG's competition now, is clearly in Fergie's favour: The quality of the top sides in the PL in that era was top-of-the-line. Today it is questionable at best. Another point to note is that United were never in any danger of falling drastically behind. Look at the gap between United and the teams that finished 4th in those three seasons.
I understand the OP's intention, and preaching patience is fine in general, but there are many reasons why an LVG-Fergie comparison simply doesn't work. The most obvious one for me would be that the style people are currently bemoaning simply is considerably harder to watch than anything Fergie served up. I realize this is bound to be a matter of taste and subjectivity to a large degree, but it would seem many of our fans feel the same. Bemoaning our current brand of football doesn't amount to ignoring the - obvious - fact that we didn't play brilliantly all the time under Fergie. Citing poor results and performances against mediocre opposition dating back to the 2004-2006 era, or frequent displays of zombie passing from more recent times, is only of minor relevance: It proves that we weren't great to watch under Fergie at all times - but it does nothing to address what people are actually going crazy over at the moment.
1. Arsenal --- 90pts
2. Chelsea --- 79pts
3. Manchester United --- 75pts
4. Liverpool --- 60pts
2004-2005:
1. Chelsea --- 95pts
2. Arsenal --- 83pts
3. Manchester United --- 77pts
4. Everton --- 61pts
2005-2006:
1. Chelsea --- 91pts
2. Manchester United --- 83pts
3. Liverpool --- 82pts
4. Arsenal --- 67pts
Context wise what is important to note here is that during Fergie's "dark" years he competed against the two best teams in the history of the PL barring his own vintages, Wenger's Invincibles and Maureen's Chelsea. The comparison between Fergie's competition back then, and LVG's competition now, is clearly in Fergie's favour: The quality of the top sides in the PL in that era was top-of-the-line. Today it is questionable at best. Another point to note is that United were never in any danger of falling drastically behind. Look at the gap between United and the teams that finished 4th in those three seasons.
I understand the OP's intention, and preaching patience is fine in general, but there are many reasons why an LVG-Fergie comparison simply doesn't work. The most obvious one for me would be that the style people are currently bemoaning simply is considerably harder to watch than anything Fergie served up. I realize this is bound to be a matter of taste and subjectivity to a large degree, but it would seem many of our fans feel the same. Bemoaning our current brand of football doesn't amount to ignoring the - obvious - fact that we didn't play brilliantly all the time under Fergie. Citing poor results and performances against mediocre opposition dating back to the 2004-2006 era, or frequent displays of zombie passing from more recent times, is only of minor relevance: It proves that we weren't great to watch under Fergie at all times - but it does nothing to address what people are actually going crazy over at the moment.
Some people just like to be miserable cnuts, not much we can do for them
