"Shredding his legacy at every turn"

[NK86]

One of the interesting point made by the OP was referencing RVN's frustrating last years as he grappled with the inexperienced young duo of Rooney and Ronaldo. He was not getting the service he was used to from Beckham and Scholes and his frustrations especially directed at a young Ronaldo eventually drove him out of the club.

There is a direct parallel here with the new young brigade of Memphis, Martial, Lingard and Januzaj. Whilst I've been as tough on Rooney as any other critic, it is fair to say that he is not getting the service and movement from these players thats he was provided 5 years ago. Maybe this quad of players will mature too late for Rooney to enjoy and another more established player (Ronaldo?, Bale?, Neymar?, Muller?) will benefit. But I think the parallel is there.

LVG has assembled the squad with the most upside potential in the league. It's almost a certainty this squad will get significantly better within 18 months. It simply needs time and encouragement. What it does not need is for a new manager to arrive with his own ideas and agenda.

This is football 101 - its why I find the LVG criticism from very knowledgeable rational and loyal United fans totally baffling.

The parallel between RVN in his last year for us and Rooney currently are not present. RVN was not getting the service but he never just got reduced to a player whose first touch would gift the ball to the opposition.

 

[Sereques]

People need to understand, we criticize and complain but most of us are not really asking for LVG's sacking or ignoring the fact that he has done a good job. They also need to understand that trusting SAF requires a lot less faith than trusting LVG.

Wasn't there a poll that asked if he should be sack and more than 50% voted yes?

 

[Sereques]

Majority of the blame is on the ex players IMO. They should support the manager and club even if they have to put on red tinted glasses. When SAF picked up the mic at the end of the season and said support your manager, he wasn't referring to the fans alone. The players have to do the same. Having a Legend that played under the previous successful manager, respected by fans bashing the current manager is the worst pressure LVG can find himself.

I know people will say but it's his opinion, yes I agree but Scholes and co have a responsibility here. When you opinion can move the hearts of many, you watch what you say.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Agree with everything the OP said. Might I just add that while our fans love to give Madrid's sticks about loyalty and whatnot, the reaction towards LvG at the moment, including the very prominent Guardiola's thread is absolutely disgusting.

 

[Dion]

I understand the OP's intention, and preaching patience is fine in general, but there are many reasons why an LVG-Fergie comparison simply doesn't work. The most obvious one for me would be that the style people are currently bemoaning simply is considerably harder to watch than anything Fergie served up. I realize this is bound to be a matter of taste and subjectivity to a large degree, but it would seem many of our fans feel the same. Bemoaning our current brand of football doesn't amount to ignoring the - obvious - fact that we didn't play brilliantly all the time under Fergie. Citing poor results and performances against mediocre opposition dating back to the 2004-2006 era, or frequent displays of zombie passing from more recent times, is only of minor relevance: It proves that we weren't great to watch under Fergie at all times - but it does nothing to address what people are actually going crazy over at the moment.

I'm not sure that's the case. My point was simply that things have been this bad, and with a far better manager before. Sometimes you have rough patches, even with a perfect manager (not that SAF was perfect ofc) as there are some things that are simply out of a manager's control

 

[kouroux]

Majority of the blame is on the ex players IMO. They should support the manager and club even if they have to put on red tinted glasses. When SAF picked up the mic at the end of the season and said support your manager, he wasn't referring to the fans alone. The players have to do the same. Having a Legend that played under the previous successful manager, respected by fans bashing the current manager is the worst pressure LVG can find himself.

I know people will say but it's his opinion, yes I agree but Scholes and co have a responsibility here. When you opinion can move the hearts of many, you watch what you say.

How ? Legends can say whatever they want but ultimately fans will always focus on the football displayed in front of them. IMHO, too much importance is given to ex players, what they say is pretty irrelevant all things considered.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

How ? Legends can say whatever they want but ultimately fans will always focus on the football displayed in front of them. IMHO, too much importance is given to ex players, what they say is pretty irrelevant all things considered.

It gives the fans confirmation for their bias and mount the pressure and negativity on the team. Sure, if we are failing in every fronts like under Moyes, have a go, I'll be the first one to get the pitchfork out, but we are not, and it's unwise to actively undermine the manager while much is still at stake for the team.

 

[kouroux]

It gives the fans confirmation for their bias and mount the pressure and negativity on the team. Sure, if we are failing in every fronts like under Moyes, have a go, I'll be the first one to get the pitchfork out, but we are not, and it's unwise to actively undermine the manager while much is still at stake for the team.

I see but I don't completely agree.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

My point was simply that things have been this bad, and with a far better manager before.

That's debatable. It depends on what you consider the crux of the current criticism of LVG. To me the latter is about style, not results. I see a whole new segment of fans turn on him because they're sick of the way we play football. It's not mainly about results or about fearing we're falling behind in terms of player quality. It certainly isn't about fearing we're not progressive enough tactically - if anything, the feeling is that we should revert to a less complicated approach. It's pent-up frustration over the lack of flair, guile and punch in our attacking game which has now been released - no doubt in ways that are over the top and unnecessarily scathing, but that will almost always be the case.

Those who keep banging the "we must be patient" drum seem to ignore the nature of the criticism. And that it's now coming from people who have, in fact, been patient - and who do acknowledge that LVG has done well enough in terms of results. It's not the usual moaning from people who are always impatient, and who are always moaning about something or other. To me, at least, that is worthy of note.

 

[Invictus]

Being honest with the assessment of Van Gaal isn't necessarily negativity, not everything has to be sugar-coated to put a positive spin on things. There are several differences between Fergie and Van Gaal:

1. Fergie had a lot of credit in store as a Manchester United manager. This is the biggest difference between him and Van Gaal from a United perspective. Even back then, Fergie was already the most successful manager in United's history. One who had won us 8 League titles in 10 years, a European Cup and 4 FA Cups - including 4 League titles in the 5 seasons preceding the barren league run. He was the messiah who had led us to unparalleled success after decades out in the wilderness. Showing faith in him seemed the most obvious course of action, given how he had evidenced the ability to build a winner twice already. You don't just up and sack a manager like that after a couple of seasons where we still won silverware (FA Cup and the League Cup). Van Gaal by comparison hasn't showcased the ability to win, and win consistently in this league. His successes have come elsewhere, a lot of them in the distant past; so there's always a caveat, given that his biggest success came about 2 decades ago at Ajax. There's genuine reason to be wary when he was let go from both of his most recent high profile club jobs (Bayern Munich and Barcelona). Having faith in you manager is admirable, as is cautious optimism, but blind faith when things have become stale (one without any form of criticism/ 'moaning', throwing the toys out of the pram - whatever reductive term you wanna call it by) can be counter-productive. There's nothing to suggest that Van Gaal will take us to the next level given time, unlike Fergie - which is essentially what the OP is predicated on.

2. Fergie's title competitors included the greatest non-Fergie managed team in Premier League history in Wenger's Arsenal, and Chelsea - who had spent unheard of (yet) amounts of money in English, or rather European football. The former was on the crest of a wave - reaching their zenith in 2003/ 2004 while United regrouped, and the latter was one of the most formidable teams in Europe in the mid 2000s (reached the semi-finals of the Champions League in 2004, beaten 1-0 by a ghost goal by the eventual winners in 2005, and exited the competition in 2006 at the hands of a Ronaldinho led Barcelona - again, by a 1 goal margin). They had taken things to an entirely new level, and Fergie had to step up. In comparison to that, the current Top 4 is arguably the worst we've seen in quite a while, and the teams pale in comparison to the European elite. We get plenty of chances to pull ahead, the competition keeps dropping points, but we repeatedly stab ourselves in the foot with extremely cautious and monotone football instead of taking advantage of the failings of teams around us.

3. Even when we weren't winning the league back then, there was a sense that the team still wanted to play football. Can't speak for the others, but I started to support United for the adventurous style of play, and going full throttle in Fergie time, because United rushing forward in waves to clinch a winner or nick a point was a sight to behold. A lot of it wasn't coming off back then, granted. But they didn't just sit back sheepishly against rubbish teams - with two defensive midfielders and 5 at the back - passing the ball every which way without zip or purpose. I could easily forgive Fergie because at the very least that team was trying to go for it, but failing - evidenced by the poor goal tally by the end of the season. Couldn't fault the tactical approach of the manager, because atleast the intent was there. Maybe the execution and end product was lacking, he could be criticized for that - and justifiably so. But now, we set up not to lose, instead of forcing the issue upon the opposition. We play with 2 holding midfielders against bottom 5 teams, we're happy to eke out results instead of trying to demolish teams, just this weekend we blamed our own inadequacy in attack on the resoluteness of one of worst defenses in the entire league. It's the difference in approach that is irksome, even though the end result might be similar.

4. Hand on heart, where would Van Gaal rank if you could have you pickings from any manager in world football after Fergie retired? Top 5? Top 10? Compare that to where Fergie would rank among all managers in 2004 or 2005. There's a massive difference between the two. Even if we wanted to replace Fergie hypothetically, which better manager was out there, and how many of them had won as much as Fergie in the mid 1990s and early 2000s, while playing good football? Hitzfeld came close, Lippi perhaps, but that was about it. Hitzfeld was taking a break from football, and Lippi had taken up his position as the Italian national team manager. So even from a replacement standpoint, sacking Fergie would make no sense because there were no better managers out there. In comparison to that, we could employ a Guardiola or Ancelotti at the end of the season, both of whom are better managers than Van Gaal right now (Ajax has no relevance given how long ago it was). Doubt anyone wants Louis gone right this minute and risk throwing our season into disarray. But a change at the end of the season would be a totally sensible thing to do. Maybe that's quite the negative opinion though, dunno. But I just don't see the logic in persisting when there might be better, younger, more adventurous, tactically superior options available, ones that could manage us for the next 5-ish season and re-establish us as a European elite with all the money the club can afford to spend. And it's not like we'd be marooning Van Gaal either. He will be paid an adequate termination fee for the last year of his contract.

 

[acnumber9]

SAF had 20 years at the club by that point to build the squad he wanted, or is it not as simple as that? I figured...

And he spent 30m on Veron, 20m on RvN, 30m on Rio, 30m on Rooney etc... with inflation thats about what LvG has spent.

His time at the club isn't really relevant. But if we want to talk about it then he earned that time at the club. Did you feel this way about Moyes?

Over how many years was that spent?

 

[Question234]

if you respond saying that fergie and van gaal are nothing alike and begin to comre them then you have completely missed the point of the post.

As good as fergie was he still needed at least 3 years to build his best squads, during this time the football wasn't its best but he kept utd competitive which is what lvg is doing now. Lvg isn't a long term manager.

Agree with everything the OP said. Might I just add that while our fans love to give Madrid's sticks about loyalty and whatnot, the reaction towards LvG at the moment, including the very prominent Guardiola's thread is absolutely disgusting.

100% this, people kid themselves saying it's the performance not the result, BS. You think everyone would want lvg in if we were 8th but top scorers ? No way.

 

[NK86]

3 windows is nothing, he's not got the attacking players he wants yet and the likes of Rooney/Memphis are letting us down on a weekly basis. LvG has talked himself about the areas he still wants to improve, the defence is sorted and now the attack is being worked on. You dont win what he has without knowing how to get a team scoring goals.

For one reason or another, we havent managed to have a settled foward unit all season - it often feels a bit like 2steps forward and 1step back due to injuries etc but Im convinced we will get there and start seeing a improvement in the attacking play.

How is the defense sorted? One Smalling injury and we will be exposed.

Agree with everything the OP said. Might I just add that while our fans love to give Madrid's sticks about loyalty and whatnot, the reaction towards LvG at the moment, including the very prominent Guardiola's thread is absolutely disgusting.

Disgusting? Overreaction much? If LVG was here for the long term and we knew he would give us at least 7-8 years of service, then not getting Guardiola would make some sense. As things stand we are set to lose LVG next season end. There is a shortage of top quality managers available now and in a year's time there might not be any available choices for us to make. That could easily mean going down Moyes path again and giving the reigns to a completely untested Giggs. How is that a scenario anyone wants to be in?

 

[Ludens the Red]

2003-2004:

1. Arsenal --- 90pts
2. Chelsea --- 79pts
3. Manchester United --- 75pts
4. Liverpool --- 60pts

2004-2005:

1. Chelsea --- 95pts
2. Arsenal --- 83pts
3. Manchester United --- 77pts
4. Everton --- 61pts

2005-2006:

1. Chelsea --- 91pts
2. Manchester United --- 83pts
3. Liverpool --- 82pts
4. Arsenal --- 67pts

Context wise what is important to note here is that during Fergie's "dark" years he competed against the two best teams in the history of the PL barring his own vintages, Wenger's Invincibles and Maureen's Chelsea. The comparison between Fergie's competition back then, and LVG's competition now, is clearly in Fergie's favour: The quality of the top sides in the PL in that era was top-of-the-line. Today it is questionable at best. Another point to note is that United were never in any danger of falling drastically behind. Look at the gap between United and the teams that finished 4th in those three seasons.

I understand the OP's intention, and preaching patience is fine in general, but there are many reasons why an LVG-Fergie comparison simply doesn't work. The most obvious one for me would be that the style people are currently bemoaning simply is considerably harder to watch than anything Fergie served up. I realize this is bound to be a matter of taste and subjectivity to a large degree, but it would seem many of our fans feel the same. Bemoaning our current brand of football doesn't amount to ignoring the - obvious - fact that we didn't play brilliantly all the time under Fergie. Citing poor results and performances against mediocre opposition dating back to the 2004-2006 era, or frequent displays of zombie passing from more recent times, is only of minor relevance: It proves that we weren't great to watch under Fergie at all times - but it does nothing to address what people are actually going crazy over at the moment.

That's debatable. It depends on what you consider the crux of the current criticism of LVG. To me the latter is about style, not results. I see a whole new segment of fans turn on him because they're sick of the way we play football. It's not mainly about results or about fearing we're falling behind in terms of player quality. It certainly isn't about fearing we're not progressive enough tactically - if anything, the feeling is that we should revert to a less complicated approach. It's pent-up frustration over the lack of flair, guile and punch in our attacking game which has now been released - no doubt in ways that are over the top and unnecessarily scathing, but that will almost always be the case.

Those who keep banging the "we must be patient" drum seem to ignore the nature of the criticism. And that it's now coming from people who have, in fact, been patient - and who do acknowledge that LVG has done well enough in terms of results. It's not the usual moaning from people who are always impatient, and who are always moaning about something or other. To me, at least, that is worthy of note.

Finally some sense, but I don't think this thread is meant for people like you.

 

[Sultan]

Being honest with the assessment of Van Gaal isn't necessarily negativity, not everything has to be sugar-coated to put a positive spin on things. There are several differences between Fergie and Van Gaal:

1. Fergie had a lot of credit in store as a Manchester United manager. This is the biggest difference between him and Van Gaal from a United perspective. Even back then, Fergie was already the most successful manager in United's history. One who had won us 8 League titles in 10 years, a European Cup and 4 FA Cups - including 4 League titles in the 5 seasons preceding the barren league run. He was the messiah who had led us to unparalleled success after decades out in the wilderness. Showing faith in him seemed the most obvious course of action, given how he had evidenced the ability to build a winner twice already. You don't just up and sack a manager like that after a couple of seasons where we still won silverware (FA Cup and the League Cup). Van Gaal by comparison hasn't showcased the ability to win, and win consistently in this league. His successes have come elsewhere, a lot of them in the distant past; so there's always a caveat, given that his biggest success came about 2 decades ago at Ajax. There's genuine reason to be wary when he was let go from both of his most recent high profile club jobs (Bayern Munich and Barcelona). Having faith in you manager is admirable, as is cautious optimism, but blind faith when things have become stale (one without any form of criticism/ 'moaning', throwing the toys out of the pram - whatever reductive term you wanna call it by) can be counter-productive. There's nothing to suggest that Van Gaal will take us to the next level given time, unlike Fergie - which is essentially what the OP is predicated on.

2. Fergie's title competitors included the greatest non-Fergie managed team in Premier League history in Wenger's Arsenal, and Chelsea - who had spent unheard of (yet) amounts of money in English, or rather European football. The former was on the crest of a wave - reaching their zenith in 2003/ 2004 while United regrouped, and the latter was one of the most formidable teams in Europe in the mid 2000s (reached the semi-finals of the Champions League in 2004, beaten 1-0 by a ghost goal by the eventual winners in 2005, and exited the competition in 2006 at the hands of a Ronaldinho led Barcelona - again, by a 1 goal margin). They had taken things to an entirely new level, and Fergie had to step up. In comparison to that, the current Top 4 is arguably the worst we've seen in quite a while, and the teams pale in comparison to the European elite. We get plenty of chances to pull ahead, the competition keeps dropping points, but we repeatedly stab ourselves in the foot with extremely cautious and monotone football instead of taking advantage of the failings of teams around us.

3. Even when we weren't winning the league back then, there was a sense that the team still wanted to play football. Can't speak for the others, but I started to support United for the adventurous style of play, and going full throttle in Fergie time, because United rushing forward in waves to clinch a winner or nick a point was a sight to behold. A lot of it wasn't coming off back then, granted. But they didn't just sit back sheepishly against rubbish teams - with two defensive midfielders and 5 at the back - passing the ball every which way without zip or purpose. I could easily forgive Fergie because at the very least that team was trying to go for it, but failing - evidenced by the poor goal tally by the end of the season. Couldn't fault the tactical approach of the manager, because atleast the intent was there. Maybe the execution and end product was lacking, he could be criticized for that - and justifiably so. But now, we set up not to lose, instead of forcing the issue upon the opposition. We play with 2 holding midfielders against bottom 5 teams, we're happy to eke out results instead of trying to demolish teams, just this weekend we blamed our own inadequacy in attack on the resoluteness of one of worst defenses in the entire league. It's the difference in approach that is irksome, even though the end result might be similar.

4. Hand on heart, where would Van Gaal rank if you could have you pickings from any manager in world football after Fergie retired? Top 5? Top 10? Compare that to where Fergie would rank among all managers in 2004 or 2005. There's a massive difference between the two. Even if we wanted to replace Fergie hypothetically, which better manager was out there, and how many of them had won as much as Fergie in the mid 1990s and early 2000s, while playing good football? Hitzfeld came close, Lippi perhaps, but that was about it. Hitzfeld was taking a break from football, and Lippi had taken up his position as the Italian national team manager. So even from a replacement standpoint, sacking Fergie would make no sense because there were no better managers out there. In comparison to that, we could employ a Guardiola or Ancelotti at the end of the season, both of whom are better managers than Van Gaal right now (Ajax has no relevance given how long ago it was). Doubt anyone wants Louis gone right this minute and risk throwing our season into disarray. But a change at the end of the season would be a totally sensible thing to do. Maybe that's quite the negative opinion though, dunno. But I just don't see the logic in persisting when there might be better, younger, more adventurous, tactically superior options available, ones that could manage us for the next 5-ish season and re-establish us as a European elite with all the money the club can afford to spend. And it's not like we'd be marooning Van Gaal either. He will be paid an adequate termination fee for the last year of his contract.

Superb post!

Well worth the time reading.

Thanks

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So there seems to be a lot of anger on the forum right now directed at the manager, journalists being opportunistic and dependent on clicks tend to tap into those emotions and fuel them in a bit of a self-fulfilling cycle. The best article in this vein is one by Rob Smyth I’m sure you’ve all seen. In the summer of 2006 after 3 years of being in the wilderness as far as the title goes and Fergie was being written off by many, many people. I’ll link the article at the bottom because for people who haven’t seen it it’s well worth a read.

The article itself was ill-timed, as Man Utd’s form in the second half of the 05-06 season was very promising. Why I mention it is because of what came before that half season of relative brightness. In 2003 we won the title off the back of a good defence lead by our new signing Ferdinand and the goals of RvN and Scholes. We then sold Veron and David Beckham and had our worst and best transfer window ever. Kleberson, Howard, both Djemba twins and a French striker that wasn’t Thierry Henry. Oh and a show pony with a bad haircut, more on him later.

That season went poorly. We came third, while failing to score in just over a 5th of our league games. We score 64 goals in total that year, despite having Ruud Van Nistlerooy hitting 20. After an exciting début from our new number 7 things weren’t as easy and many called for the head of a manager with 8 League titles to his name because he’d failed to get the best out of a proven world class Argentine, sold our most marketable player and replaced him with a kid. To remedy this lack of goals, he went out and bought Louis Saha in January with Alan Smith, Gabriel Heinze and Wayne Rooney in the summer. This was make or break for the manager, in 5 years since the treble team he’d sold the England captain, star striker and defensive rock, failed to adapt his system to his expensive South American acquisition while making no real waves in Europe since and even failing in his bread and butter, the league.

Things dramatically improved the next season, oh no… hang on. No, that’s right, they got worse, my bad. Saha and Van Nistlerooy were ruined by injuries leaving a teenage Rooney to lead the line, a good cup run inexplicably ended with a defeat to Arsenal in the least deserving result in anything, sport or otherwise, ever. The knives were out, 58 goals! 58! Playing our recently acquired striker in midfield and relying on a truly useless, definitely never going to make it Darren Fletcher far too often. Since his last league title he’d spent £80m, not including breaking the British transfer record the year before and taken the team backwards. Failing to score in 10 of the 38 league games that season was the end for some. The man had lost it, he should have retired in 2002 like he said he would. The small mercy being he saved us from Sven Goran Eriksson but when it was known Mourinho was available we were foolish to let him go to Chelsea.

The 05-06 season started badly, lounging in 7th at the end of October and very shortly about to see our captain and club icon unceremoniously removed before Christmas, our only other senior midfielder going blind just in time for the Christmas festivities and failing to get out of the group stage of the CL. For extra good measure our star striker and major goal threat was dropped after falling out with the show pony. A move that validated SAF’s poor choice in horses to some, especially when the show pony had a falling out with our future star Rooney at the Euros and SAF went to lengths only shown to Beckham and Cantona previously to keep him. The club was literally falling apart according to most and the band aid? “A Pirlo when a Gattuso was needed”.

That just about brings us up to the article. While some Man Utd supporters had seen enough in the latter stages of the previous season to be hopeful, many weren’t. The events of the 2006-2007 season onwards should be fresh in the memory for most so I won’t bother with that, needless to say it wasn’t quite what Rob Smyth had in mind.

I’m not entirely sure why I felt the need to write all that out, but there have been plenty of criticisms of our attack and how little we create recently and people saying they’re on the verge of giving up on the team because it’s so boring maybe a little bit of perspective is required. Great teams take time and work, no matter how much money you spend and how many players you buy. For those saying this is the most boring United side they’ve ever seen, they didn’t watch us in 2004.

There is too much short-termism in football and even SAF, a manager who knew the league saw his way through some times with an attack more toothless even than this one. While the acknowledgement that Martial and Depay aren’t going to carry us to glory this season might be hard to take given how much it looks there for the taking might be galling (and I don’t think we’re going to get a Cantona-esque signing to invigorate us in January) it doesn’t mean the team cannot improve under the current manager. Young players take time to develop and while LvG isn’t SAF, he is a very good manager.

The team isn’t falling apart like it was under Moyes, the urge to chop managers at a difficult moment was something that the fan base was almost unanimous in wanting to avoid. For those so eager to see us oust a manager less than 18 months into his time here because we aren’t as fluid as we’d like I just thought I’d highlight a second time where being patient with a manager who has a proven track record of success despite some less than ideal results and performances with young players has shown dividends. Who knows what the club would look like if we’d written off SAF back in 2004? Sometimes despite it seeming like you're impossibly far away from where you want to be the smallest thing or the least inspiring signing can be all that separates you from massive success. Sacking a manager is the biggest change you can make at a club and should be done with extreme caution and when there is no other option. I don't think we're there yet.


http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jul/31/sport.comment

The article, since all you miserable bastards need something to smile about.

Amen

 

[JPRouve]

Wasn't there a poll that asked if he should be sack and more than 50% voted yes?

If the polll in the LVG thread is accurate, no.

 

[Nighteyes]

Despite my criticism of LVG and avid dislike of the football we play under him, any talk of sacking LVG seems ridiculous given we're only a couple of points away from the top. Michael Owen of all people made a good point the other day. City and Arsenal seem to swing from sublime to terrible every other week while we chug along playing consistently average football and accumulating point. I'm not going to be complaining if we end up winning the title (as unlikely as it may seem) playing boring football.

It's the whole cycle playing boring football, only to just about sneak into the top 4 and then being potentially dumped out of the CL anyway, which seems rather pointless.

 

[NK86]

Despite my criticism of LVG and avid dislike of the football we play under him, any talk of sacking LVG seems ridiculous given we're only a couple of points away from the top. Michael Owen of all people made a good point the other day. City and Arsenal seem to swing from sublime to terrible every other week while we chug along playing consistently average football and accumulating point. I'm not going to be complaining if we end up winning the title (as unlikely as it may seem) playing boring football.

It's the whole cycle playing boring football, only to just about sneak into the top 4 and then being potentially dumped out of the CL anyway, which seems rather pointless.

I doubt anyone wants LVG sacked this minute. However, if we have the chance to land Guardiola/Ancelotti at the end of the season then it is a no brainer for me. I would also let him go for the two managers above even if he wins the title this time playing this brand of football.

 

[sammsky1]

Our squad next year will still be very young, lacking in cohesion and critically still seeking to add the creative gene to its DNA. Within that context, Guardiola is totally unproven in his ability to succeed.

Twice he inherited teams that were in the top 3 teams worldwide and had strong cultures of attacking football which they were already applying as he joined.

Should he leave Bayern Munchen at the end of the season, that will be twice he has had very short term stints suggesting he cannot handle pressure, is quickly bored or alienates his squads. Lastly, Guardiola is not famed for his ability to develop youth.

Right now Guardiola is very much like Ancelloti: limited in his capability to only elite and fully functioning football teams. I've seen nothing from his work to suggest he is capable of rebuilding teams around young players.

 

[Rood]

How is the defense sorted? One Smalling injury and we will be exposed.

thats just speculation, the facts are that we have the best defence in the country - in fact we have even had several injuries and constant changes in personel at the back but still the defence is strong due to the system and organisation

now Van Gaal is working on the attacking side and to me it is obvious that he will also improve that side of our game given time.

 

[Moonwalker]

Our Squad next year will still be very young, lacking cohesion and critically still seeking to add the creative gene in its DNA. Within that context, Guardiola is is totally unproven in his ability to succeed.

Twice he inherited teams that were in the top 3 teams worldwide. Both teams he inherited also had strong cultures of attacking football which they applying as he joined.

Should he leave Bayern Munchen at the end of the season, that will be twice he has had very short term stints, thus suggesting he cannot handle pressure, is quickly bored or alienates his squads.

Lastly, Guardiola is not famed for his ability to develop youth.

Right now Guardiola is very much like Ancelloti: limited in his capability to only elite well fiction football teams. Ive seen nothing from his work to suggest he is capable of rebuilding teams around young players.

For all these reasons and some others, he is much likelier to pick City than United, if he ever really comes to England.

 

[NK86]

thats just speculation, the facts are that we have the best defence in the country - in fact we have even had several injuries and constant changes in personel at the back but still the defence is strong due to the system and organisation

now Van Gaal is working on the attacking side and to me it is obvious that he will also improve that side of our game given time.

I agree it is speculation but how many times have we seen Smalling or DDG saving our arse. That shows to me that the defense is not sorted. Moreover, we play with two sitting in front of our back 5. That is setting up the team far too defensively which helps a lot. I would like to see us set up more attacking. Like Schneiderlin and Herrara with Mata in front of them.

 

[Nighteyes]

The one big disappointment with LVG has been not addressing glaring issues the squad had last season or even within games. It was obvious we lacked creativity even in our good games last season. In the game at Anfield, we created as many chances as Liverpool did despite dominating in a way we never do there. This should have been addressed with a top class winger or at least someone who could dribble a bit instead of signing Depay for 25m.

 

[sammsky1]

For all these reasons and some others, he is much likelier to pick City than United, if he ever really comes to England.

Purely objectively, thats what I would also do if I was him.

They already have the world class players, know how to play fantastic football and have unlimited resources and ambitions to be the very best in the world.

If he could lead them to European glory, his name would also be fabled in history for more than if he achieved a similar feat at United or Chelsea.

 

[Rood]

I agree it is speculation but how many times have we seen Smalling or DDG saving our arse. That shows to me that the defense is not sorted. Moreover, we play with two sitting in front of our back 5. That is setting up the team far too defensively which helps a lot. I would like to see us set up more attacking. Like Schneiderlin and Herrara with Mata in front of them.

There is no doubt that Smalling and DDG are stand out players for us, but in general we give away very few chances which for me is the proof about how good we are on the defensive side - this is obviously a big part of the 'philosophy'.

Now it is clear that our strong defensive organisation is directly linked to our lack of creativity - I did start a thread the other day about how I feel the Schmidfield combo is far too cautious, if we play that way then Carrick has to play as his passing is much quicker. But really the main issue at the moment is that we havent found the right formula upfront, Rooney is particular is a major part of that problem.

 

[jojojo]

I see where the OP is coming from here. Sometimes fans/pundits and even current players aren't very good at sensing progress. I remember SAF making a comment on the lines of "only the manager can be patient" on the basis that he can see the big picture, the players breaking through, the positives coming out of training and the rest of it.

The trouble is, that hindsight is always going to be 20:20. We don't know yet whether those few weeks last spring when we did play good football were a freak accident or something we can expect to better later this year, because we've got some better players this year. We don't know whether this shockingly pedestrian style in itself, and our ability to eke out results despite it, will be enough to win something in a League where no one else looks as consistent.

We don't know that, but we do know that if we wait until the end of the season or wait until LvG's contract is up in 2017 then our options for a new manager may be fewer than right now. Which might be fine, if everything's looking great, there's fresh silverware in the cupboard and transfers are going well - maybe we'll all be so enthused by the continuity idea we'll be happy to give Giggs a try.

In my head the question isn't about this season, it's about next season and beyond. I don't believe that will be about LvG - nothing about his history suggests to me that we will want that. Which gives the board the dilemma, negotiate now (privately) with people like Guardiola and Ancelotti, whilst publicly backing LvG or wait and see until the end of the season, by which time top managers who are on the move will have already have more or less decided their futures. Bayern did it with Heynckes, agreeing a deal with Pep and preparing an amicable retirement for Jupp, a decision taken before he won the treble, but which ultimately was done with the club's interests being placed first.

 

[SteveJ]

Is it just that impatience is the order of the day now? For example, I've been a passionate reader practically all my life yet, now, if an article is more than four paragraphs, I groan inwardly and allow myself to be distracted. In other words, are so many frustrated by LVG's tenure not only because the games are dull but also because we simply won't wait for better things?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

The entire OP is based on the assumption that van Gaal is destined to lead us to success.

I should also add that, during these "dark days" we were still winning the odd trophy, even if it was the FA and League cup. Since van Gaal took over, we couldn't even overcome MK Dons and Boro i.e. Championship level teams. Two opportunities to win something, both blown with no lessons learnt.

My biggest issue with van Gaal is there has been no progress in our ability to attack over the last 18 months. Yes, I can understand players have gone in and out, however, these are professional footballers, who's job is to... play football, yet half our team don't look like footballers. In fact, what frustrates me the most is the fact that we seemed to have found a solution and style to implement into our team, in that infamous 6 game streak, which seems to be forgotten. To me, van Gaal seems lost and doesn't look like he knows how to get us to play good attacking football, emphasised by the fact that he seems to accidentally stumble upon short-term solutions.

Regardless, Saf cannot be compared to van Gaal. The former deserved nothing less than respect, time and, even, blind faith such was his brilliance. van Gaal, on the other hand, hasn't shown enough to deserve the praise and faith some give him. Had it not been for a miraculous event on the last day of the transfer window, van Gaal would probably be very close to the exit. I was a huge supporter of van Gaal throughout last season, however, I expected progression this year and I haven't seen enough to have any faith in the Dutchman.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Fergie can't be compared when it suits you mean. It's absolutely fine though when using Fergie to show how bad van Gaal is.

Yep...

And how would you know who is destined for success or not? That's a hell of a skill and will make you the richest man alive... If you possess it, of course.

 

[jojojo]

Is it just that impatience is the order of the day now? For example, I've been a passionate reader practically all my life yet, now, if an article is more than four paragraphs, I groan inwardly and allow myself to be distracted. In other words, are so many frustrated by LVG's tenure not only because the games are dull but also because we simply won't wait for better things?

I blame TV remotes, they started the decline. Then we got Twitter. Now I can watch 24 hour news channels non-stop and in takes me at least three hours before I notice the headlines are repeating every 15 to 30 minutes. Sad days.

Football-wise, no. I've always been impatient, so has almost every fan I know, including Villa, Oldham and loads of other fans.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Fergie can't be compared when it suits you mean. It's absolutely fine though when using Fergie to show how bad van Gaal is.

Yep...

And how would you know who is destined for success or not? That's a hell of a skill and will make you the richest man alive... If you possess it, of course.

Who uses SaF for a reference point to judge van Gaal? We're a dire, unimaginative, and boring team and you don't have to compare us to anyone to figure that out.

From what I've seen of United under van Gaal, we're destined for a lot of sleep, not so much success.

I'm calling it from what I've seen, so far. Although, now that van Gaal's worked his (black) magic, he's most likely going to be regarded a hero, no matter what.

 

[Dion]

The entire OP is based on the assumption that van Gaal is destined to lead us to success.

I should also add that, during these "dark days" we were still winning the odd trophy, even if it was the FA and League cup. Since van Gaal took over, we couldn't even overcome MK Dons and Boro i.e. Championship level teams. Two opportunities to win something, both blown with no lessons learnt.

My biggest issue with van Gaal is there has been no progress in our ability to attack over the last 18 months. Yes, I can understand players have gone in and out, however, these are professional footballers, who's job is to... play football, yet half our team don't look like footballers. In fact, what frustrates me the most is the fact that we seemed to have found a solution and style to implement into our team, in that infamous 6 game streak, which seems to be forgotten. To me, van Gaal seems lost and doesn't look like he knows how to get us to play good attacking football, emphasised by the fact that he seems to accidentally stumble upon short-term solutions.

Regardless, Saf cannot be compared to van Gaal. The former deserved nothing less than respect, time and, even, blind faith such was his brilliance. van Gaal, on the other hand, hasn't shown enough to deserve the praise and faith some give him. Had it not been for a miraculous event on the last day of the transfer window, van Gaal would probably be very close to the exit. I was a huge supporter of van Gaal throughout last season, however, I expected progression this year and I haven't seen enough to have any faith in the Dutchman.

I don't think you'd actually read my OP thoroughly.

 

[RedPnutz]

Being honest with the assessment of Van Gaal isn't necessarily negativity, not everything has to be sugar-coated to put a positive spin on things. There are several differences between Fergie and Van Gaal:

1. Fergie had a lot of credit in store as a Manchester United manager. This is the biggest difference between him and Van Gaal from a United perspective. Even back then, Fergie was already the most successful manager in United's history. One who had won us 8 League titles in 10 years, a European Cup and 4 FA Cups - including 4 League titles in the 5 seasons preceding the barren league run. He was the messiah who had led us to unparalleled success after decades out in the wilderness. Showing faith in him seemed the most obvious course of action, given how he had evidenced the ability to build a winner twice already. You don't just up and sack a manager like that after a couple of seasons where we still won silverware (FA Cup and the League Cup). Van Gaal by comparison hasn't showcased the ability to win, and win consistently in this league. His successes have come elsewhere, a lot of them in the distant past; so there's always a caveat, given that his biggest success came about 2 decades ago at Ajax. There's genuine reason to be wary when he was let go from both of his most recent high profile club jobs (Bayern Munich and Barcelona). Having faith in you manager is admirable, as is cautious optimism, but blind faith when things have become stale (one without any form of criticism/ 'moaning', throwing the toys out of the pram - whatever reductive term you wanna call it by) can be counter-productive. There's nothing to suggest that Van Gaal will take us to the next level given time, unlike Fergie - which is essentially what the OP is predicated on.

There's progress in our results which hints that LVG may bring to the next level. There's also nothing, except really boring Football, that suggests he can't take us to the next level.

But I suppose from your post, then the fans have been too kind to LVG. If a manager as decorated as SAF (by 2004) received so much vitriol and negativity from fans, you could also say that fan's are not hateful enough towards LVG today.

Is it just that impatience is the order of the day now? For example, I've been a passionate reader practically all my life yet, now, if an article is more than four paragraphs, I groan inwardly and allow myself to be distracted. In other words, are so many frustrated by LVG's tenure not only because the games are dull but also because we simply won't wait for better things?

100% agree. I think this affects all aspects of present life. I blame the instant gratification culture of fast food, instant messaging and insta-everything. Generally people want something and they want it now, yesterday if possible. That's one of the reasons kids these days have attention and focus issues. If there is no gratification or stimulus now, move on.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's absolutely fine though when using Fergie to show how bad van Gaal is.

No, it's not. But you can't use an explicit reference to Fergie as a starting point for an argument and expect people not to touch the Fergie part at all. That's inviting the largely pointless comparisons to be made all over again.

The OP used Fergie's rebuild years as an example, ostensibly to illustrate a general point. He could have used a different example, thus not inviting the inevitable Fergie comments.

 

[Dion]

No, it's not. But you can't use an explicit reference to Fergie as a starting point for an argument and expect people not to touch the Fergie part at all. That's inviting the largely pointless comparisons to be made all over again.

The OP used Fergie's rebuild years as an example, ostensibly to illustrate a general point. He could have used a different example, thus not inviting the inevitable Fergie comments.

But that would be ridiculous given we've had 3 managers in the last 3 decades and all of the previous rebuilding jobs have been done by one man. I don't draw any parallels between LvG and Fergie other than their current situations. I never implied SAF's success should be used as a reason to keep faith with LvG.

That things were this bad once under Fergie and that Fergie turned it around are two separate issues I intentionally avoided conflating.

 

[Stack]

But that would be ridiculous given we've had 3 managers in the last 3 decades and all of the previous rebuilding jobs have been done by one man. I don't draw any parallels between LvG and Fergie other than their current situations. I never implied SAF's success should be used as a reason to keep faith with LvG.

That things were this bad once under Fergie and that Fergie turned it around are two separate issues I intentionally avoided conflating.

Yeah but we were never ever this boring under Fergie. We had periods where we played badly but we were never this dull. I have been watching Utd since the mid 60's and we have never been this dreary to watch and thats including the Sexton years. We are in a great position in the league, have a chance of the knockouts of the Champions league but we are really fecking dull to watch.

 

[Invictus]

There's progress in our results which hints that LVG may bring to the next level. There's also nothing, except really boring Football, that suggests he can't take us to the next level.

But I suppose from your post, then the fans have been too kind to LVG. If a manager as decorated as SAF (by 2004) received so much vitriol and negativity from fans, you could also say that fan's are not hateful enough towards LVG today.

Discussing our problems under Van Gaal, and the lack of tangible overall improvement is somehow construed as moaning (going by some of the posts in this thread - not necessarily yours), but that goes against the purpose of forums where we're supposed to exchange opinions.

After 14 games last season we were sitting on 25 points, vs 28 points for this season. So, has there actually been a lot of improvement on that front from a year to year basis? By the 15th week of the league campaign we were 3rd on the table. That's identical to where we are now. 24 goals scored vs 20 for this season (slight statistical decline), and 15 conceded vs 10 now (slight statistical improvement). Put aside the once in a blue moon Leicester City result where we totally capitulated, and it's almost identical on every front - points, goals scored, goals conceded. Does that really suggest tangible progress in terms of results, and overall improvement of the team/ squad, or have we already formed the opinion that we're better one year on? It's not just restricted to the league. Even in the League Cup, we made no dents this season, quite similar to the Milton Keynes Dawns ousting last year.

There's little to no squad rotation to the point where several starters were in the 'Red Zone' a few weeks ago. One injury to Smalling might send our defense teetering necessitating more heroics from De Gea (who mostly draws little to no praise from the manager for some odd reason, while he froths in the mouth at the mere mention of the biggest elephant in the room). Schweinsteiger who should've been managed in terms of workload (even some Bayern supporters suggested this) is starting almost every game. A couple other starters look knackered. We've loaned a player who could've atleast been some sort of help in attack, and Pereira who always seems to be among our brightest players hardly gets any opportunities while we revert to the same Plan B once Plan A doesn't work. We've left Round of 16 qualification to the last day, and will have to face a Wolfsburg team that is unbeaten on home soil for some time now. And to top it all off, the performances are underwhelming (infact, underwhelming might be an understatement) and our attack looks disjointed with no solution in sight.

In light of all of that, does the minor (3 point) improvement in league results suggest we will take the next step under Van Gaal, or is that just a passing illusion that we've used to convince ourselves that he's the right man to take the club forward? It's as if for some odd reason we are bound by duty to back everything the manager does to the hilt, and questioning that involves negative connotations, even when there's not a whole lot to suggest that we're improving at a requisite pace - one that might take us to where we were in the not too distant past.

 

[Dion]

Yeah but we were never ever this boring under Fergie. We had periods where we played badly but we were never this dull. I have been watching Utd since the mid 60's and we have never been this dreary to watch and thats including the Sexton years. We are in a great position in the league, have a chance of the knockouts of the Champions league but we are really fecking dull to watch.

That's your personal opinions. But I'd say that 04-05 was by far the most dull, hope stripping, dread inducing season we had other than Moyes debarcle.

 

[Jammydodger7]

Is it possible for people here to defend Van Gaal without throwing Alex Ferguson under the bus?

How on Earth can you come to the conclusion that anyone is throwing SAF under the bus?! If anything they're using him as a perfect examle as to why you should stick with a manager and you'll be better for it