What facts are those?
"Shredding his legacy at every turn"
- Thread starter Dion
- Start date
In a roundabout way it kind of is the point. 27 years of SAF should have taught United fans that patience can and will lead to success. Sacking a manager after 18 months who has improved many things, is unlikely to bring much in the way of success and even less stability.
As history has shown, time and time again.
That the club have made progress from 7th place two seasons ago?
That's a little more than 18 months in though so hopefully we will see similar in the latter stages of next season when we hopefully add the final pieces and the current squad benefits from a few years together.
Those Arsenal and Chelsea sides are much stronger than any team in the PL right now.
SAF said it himself "nostalgia plays tricks on the mind". All we ever hear is about the swoshbuckling style of play under him which completely ignores the very bad period in the early 00's as well as his last few seasons which I attribute more to a lack of investment than his management but the point stands.
The PL as a league from top to bottom is much stronger than back then.
So league position is the only fact that matters?
You don't think it's relevant to consider the factors that have enabled us to be there, such as the general poor standard of opposition?
What about the facts surrounding our actual performances, such as goals (lack of) or creativity (lack of)?
You can't cite "the facts" as backing your point of view and then ignore a bunch of them.
One of the interesting point made by the OP was referencing RVN's frustrating last years as he grappled with the inexperienced young duo of Rooney and Ronaldo. He was not getting the service he was used to from Beckham and Scholes and his frustrations especially directed at a young Ronaldo eventually drove him out of the club.
There is a direct parallel here with the new young brigade of Memphis, Martial, Lingard and Januzaj. Whilst I've been as tough on Rooney as any other critic, it is fair to say that he is not getting the service and movement from these players thats he was provided 5 years ago. Maybe this quad of players will mature too late for Rooney to enjoy and another more established player (Ronaldo?, Bale?, Neymar?, Muller?) will benefit. But I think the parallel is there.
LVG has assembled the squad with the most upside potential in the league. It's almost a certainty this squad will get significantly better within 18 months. It simply needs time and encouragement. What it does not need is for a new manager to arrive with his own ideas and agenda.
This is football 101 - its why I find the LVG criticism from very knowledgeable rational and loyal United fans totally baffling.
There is a direct parallel here with the new young brigade of Memphis, Martial, Lingard and Januzaj. Whilst I've been as tough on Rooney as any other critic, it is fair to say that he is not getting the service and movement from these players thats he was provided 5 years ago. Maybe this quad of players will mature too late for Rooney to enjoy and another more established player (Ronaldo?, Bale?, Neymar?, Muller?) will benefit. But I think the parallel is there.
LVG has assembled the squad with the most upside potential in the league. It's almost a certainty this squad will get significantly better within 18 months. It simply needs time and encouragement. What it does not need is for a new manager to arrive with his own ideas and agenda.
This is football 101 - its why I find the LVG criticism from very knowledgeable rational and loyal United fans totally baffling.
Man Utd 1 Crawley Town 0
I remember thinking to myself that this was one of the worst games under SAF Id ever seen.
I'd say I'm as big an admirer of Sir Alex Ferguson as they come and eulogise over his traditions and philosophies. But I have accepted it is a futile task as only SAF can implement the SAF way. Once the club decided it would not go for the SAF legacy strategy after Moyes, the task was always a fundamental rebuild. Not simply in replacing deadwood players, but also making the club bigger than SAF once more.
LVG's greatest achievement so far has been to enable a squad of Manchester United players play a different way to SAF and still remain competitive. In the short term, I don't like the football and have struggled the identify the team I've supported for over 30 years. But I recognise this is an unavoidable step for the club to thrive in the future.
Within that context, LVG has done a brilliant job so far. With no experience of English football, he necessarily gutted the SAF empire, assembled an unprecedented number of new players, taught them to play in a new way and made them very hard to beat, all while delivering the quantitative objectives demanded by the board and fans alike. He has said numerous times that he has a process and we are on that journey with him. I really cant see what he has done wrong to warrant such abuse from normally rational and objective fans.
I think its impossible to build a new side from scratch and have it play entertaining league winning football; I've not seen it before anywhere. However, I saw SAF build great teams with solid organised defences and midfields, I saw George Graham do the same at Arsenal. Wilkinson briefly did so with Leeds. Wenger's successes was initially built on the Premier Leagues best ever defence. Mourinho and Mancini inherited already very well established squads so they cant count.
Likewise, LVG cant build a truly great team in 3 transfer windows; he can only use the resources he has right now. And right now, we are lacking 2 world class creative player; if only Falcao and Di Maria had worked out, he'd have the squad perfect right now. But those 2 players will surely come.
Because of his vast elite experiences, LVG has as big a tool kit as any manager in world football today. I fully trust his diagnosis and can visibly see and understand his strategy to restore Manchester United as an elite football team, critically without SAF at the helm.
And I also find the dissent from ex players and fans truly astonishing. Its not easy to be the very best: it takes time, investment and faith. We have given LVG investment, please just give him the necessary time and faith. I'm convinced it will bear fruit in amazing ways.
LVG's greatest achievement so far has been to enable a squad of Manchester United players play a different way to SAF and still remain competitive. In the short term, I don't like the football and have struggled the identify the team I've supported for over 30 years. But I recognise this is an unavoidable step for the club to thrive in the future.
Within that context, LVG has done a brilliant job so far. With no experience of English football, he necessarily gutted the SAF empire, assembled an unprecedented number of new players, taught them to play in a new way and made them very hard to beat, all while delivering the quantitative objectives demanded by the board and fans alike. He has said numerous times that he has a process and we are on that journey with him. I really cant see what he has done wrong to warrant such abuse from normally rational and objective fans.
I think its impossible to build a new side from scratch and have it play entertaining league winning football; I've not seen it before anywhere. However, I saw SAF build great teams with solid organised defences and midfields, I saw George Graham do the same at Arsenal. Wilkinson briefly did so with Leeds. Wenger's successes was initially built on the Premier Leagues best ever defence. Mourinho and Mancini inherited already very well established squads so they cant count.
Likewise, LVG cant build a truly great team in 3 transfer windows; he can only use the resources he has right now. And right now, we are lacking 2 world class creative player; if only Falcao and Di Maria had worked out, he'd have the squad perfect right now. But those 2 players will surely come.
Because of his vast elite experiences, LVG has as big a tool kit as any manager in world football today. I fully trust his diagnosis and can visibly see and understand his strategy to restore Manchester United as an elite football team, critically without SAF at the helm.
And I also find the dissent from ex players and fans truly astonishing. Its not easy to be the very best: it takes time, investment and faith. We have given LVG investment, please just give him the necessary time and faith. I'm convinced it will bear fruit in amazing ways.
No matter what he achieves in the meantime?
Poor standard of opposition? Explain Chelsea this season then, City getting twatted twice 4-1, explain Arsenal losing to poor standard of opposition whilst everyone and the media either fellating or lambasting them. Explain Leicester to me then. Why does the standard of the league only apply when it comes to LVG and Uniteds performances?
No question about that and they showed it. Nobody right now is in that league so we are competing against teams on an equal level. We can't say, oh, well they are clearly better so its expected that we are not fighting for the title, because there's no stand out team(s).
Well the takeover happened in 2005. SAF started his rebuild in 2003 so I'm not sure why you and @roykeane19 are using that in his defense. Up until 2005, SAF always had the more money available to him then other top sides bar the Chelsea blowout around that time.
I don't want to derail the thread but there's an argument about transfer inflation and whos rebuild required a larger turnover of players. The 250m figure argument comes across as quite harsh considering where the club was when he took over and the money our competitors are spending to stay on top.
Yep. Having no "top" team makes the league tougher. It may not be better but the gap between the big sides and the rest is smaller than its been in a long while. At one point the gap between 1st and 5th was massive. I don't see it being like that this season.
You've just listed most of the teams we'd consider rivals and how poor they've been, so thanks for underlining my point for me.
The standard of the league doesn't only come into it when discussing United, the same stuff was being said last season when Chelsea had little to no real competition for the title.
The PL is shit right now.
So Leicester is our rival? Okay the money gone into the Premier League hasnt made all the teams harder to beat then? Ok sounds plausible.
I'd consider his position if he achieves a better playing style.
I disagree I believe teams are harder to beat top to bottom than even a few years ago.
United had style in the 70s and 80s how much did we win then? How stylish were Spurs with Ardiles and Villa and Hoddle, how much did they win?
Unleash you're arguing Leicester have been poor I've no idea how you'd take that from what I wrote.
If you really think that the only thing to change is the lower teams improving then there's not much else to say, but how anyone can think Chelsea, City, Us, Arsenal etc are all just as good as ever and its the lower teams that have changed is beyond me.
All it takes is a pair of eyes to see how poor the overall standard is.
I was answering "UnitedinRed". He brought up stats from 2004/5/6 seasons.
So if we win the league (or come 2nd) in the current style, you'd want him sacked?
United had style in the 90s, how much did they win?
The standard of the top teams has decreased. The overall standard of the league has increased though. The gaps closer.
Leicester are joint top. On the last day of November. They're very good value for it too. You can use this to discredit our position because "its Leicester ffs" or you can hold your hands up and say fair play. To them, to West Ham, Saints and others.
Leicester are joint top. On the last day of November. They're very good value for it too. You can use this to discredit our position because "its Leicester ffs" or you can hold your hands up and say fair play. To them, to West Ham, Saints and others.
If we go out of the CL I really can not wait for the same people to say it is no big deal because we got knocked out in the group stages in 2005 and 2011. Especially since those people have been saying this boring style of Football we are playing would lead to much improved results in Europe.
They also had a great foundation that took Fergie 7 years to build. Oh btw you remember this?
Yep, we still havent learned feck all have we?
I'd rather enjoy a lot of games over a season than watching drab football all season with us ending up winning a trophy. I never started following United because we were serial trophy winners.
I enjoyed watching United in the 70s and 80s.
Exactly
Fair enough!
He certainly isnt, but you missed the point purposely. Fans dont have patience, they didnt for Fergie and the dont for LVG
This is in some ways the crux of the problem.
I loved watching us in the 70's and 80's, even when we were playing badly we were exciting to watch. So the argument seems to be choose between being exciting and winning nothing or winning and being dull. I dont understand why we cant be both. It doesnt have to be a choice between one or the other.
Fergies teams were never ever as dull as we are now, sure we played badly and had bad runs but we were never this dull and ugly.
Great OP.
This is why I get so annoyed at Scholes whenever I hear/read his opinions. Scholes played in all the games when United last went 3 games without scoring. Scholes played 33 games in the league in 04/05 when we scored 58(!) goals in the league. He was also in the team when we failed to get out of the group stages of the CL, more than once.
If there is anyone who should probably be understanding of our current situation, it should be Scholes. But the guy is acting as if he retired in 2003 and got brought back for 06/07. All you hear is 'This did not and would not have happened in my time at United'. He cant say that he only knew of the good times when he was there in the bad times too.
So for me its not surprising to hear journalists, fans and pundits talking shite when the players who lived through it are also pushing the same agenda in the media.
This is why I get so annoyed at Scholes whenever I hear/read his opinions. Scholes played in all the games when United last went 3 games without scoring. Scholes played 33 games in the league in 04/05 when we scored 58(!) goals in the league. He was also in the team when we failed to get out of the group stages of the CL, more than once.
If there is anyone who should probably be understanding of our current situation, it should be Scholes. But the guy is acting as if he retired in 2003 and got brought back for 06/07. All you hear is 'This did not and would not have happened in my time at United'. He cant say that he only knew of the good times when he was there in the bad times too.
So for me its not surprising to hear journalists, fans and pundits talking shite when the players who lived through it are also pushing the same agenda in the media.
Fans didnt have patience for Fergie because we werent winning. However we werent boring. I dont get why people cant see this. We are absolutely without any doubt the most boring side to watch in the EPL. Why cant we complain about that?
I've not missed any point at all, I just don't think you have one.
You're basically arguing that things worked out well for SAF therefore we should have patience and things will work out well again. It's already been pointed out that this is an extremely flawed 'logic', there's a million other variable outside of simply having patience.
You were talking about teams with style who won nothing so I mentioned United in the 90's who won with style, to make the point that it's not one or the other, it's perfectly possible to have both.
You, and others, are of the opinion that giving LVG blind faith will lead to an improvement, I've seen nothing to support that theory and have no such faith. Plenty of others feel the same, and this discussion started with you suggesting that those of us who don't have faith in him are just 'following the noise' rather than actually having opinions, which was not only ignorant but just plain wrong.
A few banners and lone voices is hardly a protest. LvG is universally criticised by United fans, ex-players and pundits for the way the team has played. I'd never heard United fans booing in all my time as a United fan more than this season.
It is like that everywhere in Football it is completely different era than the footballing world Ferguson entered into. People like to make it seem like just a Chelsea/Real thing but, even Barca and Bayern have shown no hesitation jettisoning a manager when a team was not playing up to standard. Van Gaal is an example of that at both clubs. We have to biggest wage bill in the league and a higher wage bill than Bayern. If you think what has been on display on the pitch is good enough considering that I do not know what to tell you. I do not expect him to be Ferguson and not even comparing them but, considering where the club's current standing is in the game this is not good enough.
You mean its wrong to give someone a chance then to improve things. You mean its nothing to do with being impatient and unrealistic? LVG isnt perfect, far from it, but he is capable of winning a title. He even says he needs more speed in the team. As for arguing about how things worked out well for SAF. I was drawing comparisons because people have absolutely no patience. LVG has been 18 months on the job and he is getting the abuse I remember Fergie getting in those days. The fact of the matter is he has to be given the full amount of time he was offered to prove himself. And people screaming about how we play when his team isnt fully built the way he wants it just dont have the patience to let him finish his plans.