Is there anyone left who wants to defend lvg now?

[NinjaZombie]

Ample time for what?

It took City £400m and 3 years to won their first PL title and they required a full rebuild. They finished 9th the season before so not to dissimilar to us when van Gaal took over.

Chelsea took 2 years to win a title, on a less competitive league and a £250m investment, 10 years ago.

Liverpool and Spurs have spent over £800m in 20 years and have won the league a massive zero times.

So how long is needed exactly? What's the standard cut off point? 18 months? 10 months? 5 years? 1 day? You tell me.

I'm not talking about winning titles. I'm talking about the squad being good enough not to collapse as badly as we have. I'm talking about actually being able to have the proper balance between attack and defence, without having to resort to two defensive midfielders to have some stability. About having good enough cover so a DM doesn't have to play centre back and a left midfielder doesn't have to play left back when the first choice left back is out for a long time. Also, Valdes. What the hell is that about?

Van Gaal talks about being clinical but goes into the season relying on Rooney and two young players in their first season for goals. He mentions how gruelling the holiday period is in England, but has sold most of his squad players in his second season. I think he has totally fecked up the squad management bit of his job.

To answer your question, ample time to not actually be losing against the likes of Bournemouth, Norwich and Stoke City, all in the space of a few weeks.

 

[Smores]

I can't fathom how people can defend Van Gaal by citing how poor the side is. He's had ample time to build his own team, which he has. He's also made a bad choice in selecting his captain who "plays always" who also happens to be the only senior striker after he's sold 3/4 of a title winning strike force. He is also playing people out of position.

The logic seems to be that Van Gaal can't achieve success unless all his players perform, therefore completely absolving him of any blame for results when they don't perform.

Baffling

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Because look at this season. Point being dropped by every fecking team. Be that Leicester liverpool, city or arsenal.

I get why you guys want van gaal sacked. Im running out of excuses of wanting to keep him but that doesn't change the fact that this year the premiership has been calamity. We are 9 points off the top but only 7 off the top team that will realistically win it.

Thats not great but it isnt some disaster as its made out to be. Just this 4 game defeat thing has held us back meanwhile all the title challengers have also lost 2 games out of that 4 atleast.

Again, you expect van gaal to win you titles you will be disappointed.

You expect him to build a squad that can be managed by most managers then i think we are on to something.

Hows that? What on earth is he building? How is it that the squad he's building got worse over the last 12 months?

We've been disastrous since October, where we've managed to win a measly 4 games out of 16. We may go through the entire month of December without winning a single game.

 

[RedChip]

I'm starting to think that I want him to leave, but not because I think he is the one that is losing us games. I just think the the environment is becoming too toxic and isn't helping everyone.

I watched the game yesterday, started fairly even, and then Memphis makes a stupid error and Stoke score. My first thought was that this will of course be Van Gaal's fault. It obviously isn't - but the narrative has taken off now and can't be stopped. It is the times that we live in, but I genuinely believe that the media have encroached their boundaries in the modern game. They don't just report what happens, they lead the narrative, and they build pressure and ultimately get manager's sacked. They target individual players and turn general opinion (which is equivalent to that of an 8 year old anyway) against them.

This situation has reached a climax. I admit are results (recently) have not been good enough. The pressure began well before that though, when we were first or second in the league. A culmination of tweets from rent-a-hacks, words of wisdom from the likes of Shearer and Linekar, or the former United players they have been relentlessly tracking down to ask their opinion on how many shots we have and how much it betrays our traditions, despite us being near the top. Now the last bit, which should have actually been the first bit, has happened in that our results have nosedived and now validated their campaign. They now continue to reference the 'large sections of United fans' that support their agenda, which is something they have been trying to engineer amonget the United fans for months, for no other reason than that every season needs a United story.

Anyway, a change of scenery will probably help everyone now. I just can't help but feel Van Gaal has been treated unfairly.

Great post.

 

[darko]

The simple part is what is right in front of everyone's nose and yet most refuse to admit it.


SAF pulled off a miracle in winning the league in his final season. Just look at the massive dip in form players had immediately following his retirement. RvP went to shit. Rooney was starting to show wear and tear even before SAF left. Vidic and Rio were broken down as much as they were healthy. Giggs was old as balls. Scholes was old as balls. Valencia and Young haven't been very good for awhile. Evra was showing signs of declining for a few years. Carrick has dropped off this year.

Miss judge. What the heck has Evra done since he left? So many were saying he was washed up and he was and isn't.

 

[711]

Because look at this season. Point being dropped by every fecking team. Be that Leicester liverpool, city or arsenal.

I get why you guys want van gaal sacked. Im running out of excuses of wanting to keep him but that doesn't change the fact that this year the premiership has been calamity. We are 9 points off the top but only 7 off the top team that will realistically win it.

Thats not great but it isnt some disaster as its made out to be. Just this 4 game defeat thing has held us back meanwhile all the title challengers have also lost 2 games out of that 4 atleast.

Again, you expect van gaal to win you titles you will be disappointed.

You expect him to build a squad that can be managed by most managers then i think we are on to something.

You've got that bit right at any rate.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Unlimited money? He's spent infinity? Bloody hell you've done it now. This will be on Twitter and claimed as the gospel truth by 6pm.

Less points than Moyes? Well yeh, its December. Let's re assess in April. I suspect he will have more than 57, again. Well, if he was here.

So 18 months is the cut off point? What do we need to have achieved in this 18 month period? And how much money can a manager spend without it being increased on a daily basis?

I'm just trying to get an idea for the next man and his maximum 18 month stay.

Be honest, do you think a new manager will change things? And what do you base that on? I've got my responses ready but let's see what you say.

think a new manager will change things? And what do you base that on? I've got my responses ready but let's see what you say.[/QUOTE]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/louis-van-gaals-man-united-7072873

points per game
Moyes 1.69 LVG 1.53

Win percentage
Moyes 52.9% LVG 50%

Longest unbeaten run
Moyes 12 LVG 11

Longest winless run
Moyes 3 LVG 7 and counting.

We're talking stats over his entire reign.

In 18 months time the new manager will have to prove we haven't gone backwards. If he falls behind LVG in the above stats he will be in trouble.

 

[UnitedinRed]

No, why reassess in April? 18 months into his reign and we have no identity. We have no idea how to play football. Why should he be given a second longer as the manager of Manchester United?

Suspect he'll be on 57? Based on what? 4 wins in our last 16 games? That's relegation form, in case you weren't aware. 9 wins in our last 24 premier league games, picking up 34 points. If we lose tomorrow, we could find ourselves 11th in the table. Yet, you still believe he deserves more time. My fecking word.

Your third sentence... How about some actual fecking progress? We've been on the decline since April, the complete opposite of where we should be.

Who says the next man should only get 18 months? If the next man does his job well, then he should, by all means, be given the time he deserves.

What has van Gaal done to deserve another minute at the club?

As for the last part, I believe we have enough quality at the club to be challenging against the shit that is Arsenal Leicester and City.

And if we win? Chelsea are hardly flying and a change of manager has had very little effect. Pretty sire one of the Chelsea fans said 45 minutes of decent play in two games. Hazard still terrible. A change has really helped there while half of redcafe clamours for the manager Chelsea deemed not good enough. Yup.

I want to see improvement, I don't expect things to change over night though and understand to get out of this will be slow, no matter who is in charge. Van Gaal, Pep, Jose... Whoever it is will have a hell of a job with this lot.

Van Gaals met target last season and is very capable of doing so this season. Moyes failed to meet target and was sacked. Tends to be how its works.

 

[Dreaded]

What do people like yourself with this sort of opinion suggest we do? Get rid of all the under-performing players and purchase another set who will inevitably fail again in 18 months time?

LvG was given the time and resources to assemble the team of his choice. He shipped out the likes Rafael, Evra, Cleverley, Welbeck, van Persie, Kagawa, Hernandez, di Maria, Falcao, Nani for a number of different reasons, with the most common being the failure to adapt to his every demand. No one questioned his decisions even though a few of the above could have been incredibly useful to us, at this moment in time. He replaced them with player who he felt could adapt to and fulfil his infamous philosophy. The likes of Herrera, Blind, Shaw, Rojo, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Memphis, Martial and Darmian were all brought in for a total of around £175 million.

The common denominator is the players named above is they've all failed to perform for us, Blind being the exception. Not a single player we've bought has been the slightest bit successful for us. Why is that? Why is it that these players cannot play well for us? Are they just completely average? That can't be, can it? They were all highly rated players before they signed for us. Then you have the likes of Evra, Cleverley, Kagawa, Nani all performing well for their new teams with Chicha and di Maria having astonishingly good seasons at their respective clubs.

You can't get a better example than di Maria to see what a complete failure this philosophy has been. van Gaal sucked all the excitement, passion and freedom out of the guy, which, unsurprisingly, coincided with the loss to Leicester, last season. Either side of his shit career at United, he's been playing at his absolute, brilliant peak. In fact, as with Martial, he had a terrific start to this United career before van Gaal decided enough wasenough. As di Maria excels at PSG, we're left with the utterly average Ashley Young and Memphis "Ronaldo" Depay. Funnily enough, Memphis has followed the di Maria path and resembles a donkey when playing football. Surprise, surprise or not.

The quicker your man leaves, the better. He's sucked the life out of Man United, the fans and the players and I will take great joy on the day he leaves our club for good.

Di Maria never wanted to join us, he never wanted to play for us and grabbed the first chance he could to leave.

There is plenty of things LVG can rightly be blamed for, however Di Maria certainly isn't one of them.

 

[UnitedinRed]

I'm not talking about winning titles. I'm talking about the squad being good enough not to collapse as badly as we have. I'm talking about actually being able to have the proper balance between attack and defence, without having to resort to two defensive midfielders to have some stability. About having good enough cover so a DM doesn't have to play centre back and a left midfielder doesn't have to play left back when the first choice left back is out for a long time. Also, Valdes. What the hell is that about?

Van Gaal talks about being clinical but goes into the season relying on Rooney and two young players in their first season for goals. He mentions how gruelling the holiday period is in England, but has sold most of his squad players in his second season. I think he has totally fecked up the squad management bit of his job.

To answer your question, ample time to not actually be losing against the likes of Bournemouth, Norwich and Stoke City, all in the space of a few weeks.

These players will still be weak minded after he's gone. Weak people are always weak, no matter what. So the issue will remain.

Our results are dire, but again, this is very much on the players as well. They're the ones on the pitch. They are not instructed to play like shite contrary to what some might think. There poor form is their responsibility too. With poor attitudes its no surprise.

 

[golden_blunder]

Best players.

De Gea - well van Gaal was manager when he didn't leave for Madrid as basically 99% said he would and continue to do so.

Smalling - vast improvement under van Gaal. The player we thought he would become.

Herrera - is it his fault Moyes dithered?

Martial - his signing entirely.

Special mentions for BFS and Schneiderlin who while not brilliant, are clearly missed right now.

So yeh, your point kind of falls down on that

Except that in ddg's case, he stated in public in the first year that he didn't trust the goalkeeper. I'm sure that went down well. Ddg imho is still there inspire of lvg not because of lvg

 

[UnitedinRed]

think a new manager will change things? And what do you base that on? I've got my responses ready but let's see what you say.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/louis-van-gaals-man-united-7072873

points per game
Moyes 1.69 LVG 1.53

Win percentage
Moyes 52.9% LVG 50%

Longest unbeaten run
Moyes 12 LVG 11

Longest winless run
Moyes 3 LVG 7 and counting.

We're talking stats over his entire reign.

In 18 months time the new manager will have to prove we haven't gone backwards. If he falls behind LVG in the above stats he will be in trouble.[/QUOTE]

At one point Moyes had a 100% win ratio. Bring back Moyes!

 

[UnitedinRed]

Except that in ddg's case, he stated in public in the first year that he didn't trust the goalkeeper. I'm sure that went down well. Ddg imho is still there inspire of lvg not because of lvg

I suspect he trusted none of them until he saw them.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Ample time to get us playing like he wants us to play. If he has achieved that and this is how it looks then he should go. If he has still not been able to achieve that after getting in half a new squad of players and 18 months at the helm then he should go. Hope that answers your question.

He hasn't achieved it. Its safe to say he underestimated the job. Its been clear that this is a 2/3 year job since the summer. Were already making huge changes year on year. Hopefully that calms down going forward and we can add the players we need to the squad. Leaders and strikers.

 

[Fully Fledged]

At one point Moyes had a 100% win ratio. Bring back Moyes!

At that point it would have been too small of a sample to prove anything. 18 months though is long enough to see that we are worse now than at anytime in EPL history including the spell under Moyes.

 

[golden_blunder]

It's going to be a tough rebuild for any manager BUT I have zero confidence in lvg being that person. There is precious little right about the last 18 months and s o much wrong, nay, so many clusterfeck decisions taken

 

[Fully Fledged]

He hasn't achieved it. Its safe to say he underestimated the job. Its been clear that this is a 2/3 year job since the summer. Were already making huge changes year on year. Hopefully that calms down going forward and we can add the players we need to the squad. Leaders and strikers.

And going backwards.

 

[UnitedinRed]

At that point it would have been too small of a sample to prove anything. 18 months though is long enough to see that we are worse now than at anytime in EPL history including the spell under Moyes.

10 months is also quite a short time. Let's just forget Moyes ever happened and work on full seasons only.

 

[Fully Fledged]

10 months is also quite a short time. Let's just forget Moyes ever happened and work on full seasons only.

10 months worth of data is a big enough sample to provide accurate data.

 

[ste_michaels]

I haven't been on here for quite some time, I can honestly say I was wrong about David moyes, when he came I was sceptical but you had to give him a chance, it didn't work and I was there on the sack notes bandwagon, but with lvg we as a club need to stick by him, he will turn it around, the man is a proven winner, it takes time, sure we are going through a dreadful patch of form, yeah you can blame his tatics and his transfer policy, BUT you have to look at the players, they are extremely well paid professional footballers, that's there job! Go out and play football, and hardly anyone is fit to wear that badge on there chest as the teams gone by would have bled for that badge, that group of players need to look at themselves, I feel bad for Lvg, he's taken a kicking off everyone, some of it fair but there's a lot of unjust shit thrown at him, the media are killing our club! So yeah I'm still here defending him.

 

[Rado_N]

I wonder if things had gone wonderfully over the last 18 months and we'd won another treble would the same people in this thread be saying that's just down to the players and its not LVG that's caused it.

 

[Amethyst]

Ample time for what?

It took City £400m and 3 years to won their first PL title and they required a full rebuild. They finished 9th the season before so not to dissimilar to us when van Gaal took over.

Chelsea took 2 years to win a title, on a less competitive league and a £250m investment, 10 years ago.

Liverpool and Spurs have spent over £800m in 20 years and have won the league a massive zero times.

So how long is needed exactly? What's the standard cut off point? 18 months? 10 months? 5 years? 1 day? You tell me.

He's had ample time (three transfer windows) to get rid of those he doesn't want and to buy in players with an enormous budget. The comparison with City isn't a valid one in my opinion. Yes we finished seventh under Moyes, but we should have made top four comfortably with the squad we had even with Liverpool's improvement. We'd won the league two out of the last three years before Moyes took over, City had had a string of mid table finishes and squad not used to competing for the title. Chelsea weren't a team filled with players that had recently won the league either when they were bought by Roman I don't think.

If you look at what van Gaal has achieved on a competition by competition basis since he arrived it reads as the following:

Premier League 14/15: Managed to get us top four, fair enough.
FA Cup 14/15: Beat some low league teams and then were beaten at home by the first decent opponent we got.
League Cup 14/15: Hammered 4-0 by MK Dons in our first game.

Premier League 15/16: Has us currently in sixth having lost three in a row.
FA Cup 15/16: ?
League Cup 15/16: Knocked out by 'Boro at home on pens early on.
Champions League 15/16: Failed to get out of kind group.

And for all that apart from that run of games in March/April last season and perhaps the very beginning of 14/15 when we played the diamond, the football has been shocking. Especially when you consider the money spent.

 

[UnitedinRed]

And going backwards.

Think that's kind of expected though. With so much change it will take time to settle again.

I think with a few tweaks and some good January signings, we could make a push for the title. Were an outside bet now but theres enough sides beating each other for us to capitalise on it. Whether we do is another matter and one few are likely to see right now.

As much as a new manager might, on the off chance get us going, a new player could have the same boost. Much like Cantona, the right signing could transform the side.

I would add no more that 3 players in January. And less in the summer. Getyingbus to a point where one or 2 additions are all we need. The squad will settle, spirits will rise.

So, who's the best, most availae leader in football? A Keane or cantona type figure.

 

[UnitedinRed]

I wonder if things had gone wonderfully over the last 18 months and we'd won another treble would the same people in this thread be saying that's just down to the players and its not LVG that's caused it.

You mean lkme how every title we won under Fergie was all down to him.... Expect it wasn't.

Team game. Team. Collective group of individuals working together to achieve their goal. That's what won us all our success. The team, manager, players, coaches and the rest.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I wonder if things had gone wonderfully over the last 18 months and we'd won another treble would the same people in this thread be saying that's just down to the players and its not LVG that's caused it.

No. If over the last 4 or 5 games he had turned it around I would be happy. I have no agenda against LVG I just want United to be successful.

 

[golden_blunder]

Statistically we're as close to 13th and 14th as we are if 1st place

 

[Rado_N]

You mean lkme how every title we won under Fergie was all down to him.... Expect it wasn't.

Team game. Team. Collective group of individuals working together to achieve their goal. That's what won us all our success. The team, manager, players, coaches and the rest.

yea nobody ever credited SAF with our success

 

[golden_blunder]

I suspect he trusted none of them until he saw them.

This was after a few games already

 

[UnitedinRed]

He's had ample time (three transfer windows) to get rid of those he doesn't want and to buy in players with an enormous budget. The comparison with City isn't a valid one in my opinion. Yes we finished seventh under Moyes, but we should have made top four comfortably with the squad we had even with Liverpool's improvement. We'd won the league two out of the last three years before Moyes took over, City had had a string of mid table finishes and squad not used to competing for the title. Chelsea weren't a team filled with players that had recently won the league either when they were bought by Roman I don't think.

If you look at what van Gaal has achieved on a competition by competition basis since he arrived it reads as the following:

Premier League 14/15: Managed to get us top four, fair enough.
FA Cup 14/15: Beat some low league teams and then were beaten at home by the first decent opponent we got.
League Cup 14/15: Hammered 4-0 by MK Dons in our first game.

Premier League 15/16: Has us currently in sixth having lost three in a row.
FA Cup 15/16: ?
League Cup 15/16: Knocked out by 'Boro at home on pens early on.
Champions League 15/16: Failed to get out of kind group.

And for all that apart from that run of games in March/April last season and perhaps the very beginning of 14/15 when we played the diamond, the football has been shocking. Especially when you consider the money spent.

I don't consider the money spent. It had to be spent. Years of underspending meant someone eventually had to do this. Van gaal did. Sone didn't work out, some may need more time. Some have been our better performers. Bar Di Maria, Falcao and Valdes, none have been failures. We've a very young side though lacking a leader. Rooney is not that man. BFS is a leader but he has been suspended and boy its shown.

 

[UnitedinRed]

yea nobody ever credited SAF with our success

Give it another read. Some claim it was 100% down to Fergie. Which is nonsense and insulting to those great players.

Fergie was magic and could drag us through bit the players were just as important. They wanted the success just as much and ran through walls for him. It tool a hell of a long time to get to that point though and plenty of comings and goings.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Statistically we're as close to 13th and 14th as we are if 1st place

That's the league this season. Its fecked up for sure.

 

[NK86]

He hasn't achieved it. Its safe to say he underestimated the job. Its been clear that this is a 2/3 year job since the summer. Were already making huge changes year on year. Hopefully that calms down going forward and we can add the players we need to the squad. Leaders and strikers.

Nothing can justify him taking 2-3 years to get the team playing like he wants them to. The quality of players may be an issue, most of which is down to him, but to be playing as poorly as we have through this season is all down to his tactics. For that very reason he should go.

 

[Raoul]

No excuses, he must go asap.

 

[Amethyst]

I don't consider the money spent. It had to be spent. Years of underspending meant someone eventually had to do this. Van gaal did. Sone didn't work out, some may need more time. Some have been our better performers. Bar Di Maria, Falcao and Valdes, none have been failures. We've a very young side though lacking a leader. Rooney is not that man. BFS is a leader but he has been suspended and boy its shown.

My point is that van Gaal achieved basically the bare minimum to not get sacked last year and we've failed in every cup competition so far. We've stagnated at best over these past couple of months and that's after van Gaal has had all the money he needs to bring in the personnel he wants. I agree that the purchases individually were good buys, but the balance of the squad is completely wrong and his stupidity in trimming the squad too thin has cost us already.

 

[RedChip]

What would Chuck Norris do in this situation?

Once he has singlehandedly sorted out the whole press corps, he would clone Fergie, of course.

 

[NK86]

I haven't been on here for quite some time, I can honestly say I was wrong about David moyes, when he came I was sceptical but you had to give him a chance, it didn't work and I was there on the sack notes bandwagon, but with lvg we as a club need to stick by him, he will turn it around, the man is a proven winner, it takes time, sure we are going through a dreadful patch of form, yeah you can blame his tatics and his transfer policy, BUT you have to look at the players, they are extremely well paid professional footballers, that's there job! Go out and play football, and hardly anyone is fit to wear that badge on there chest as the teams gone by would have bled for that badge, that group of players need to look at themselves, I feel bad for Lvg, he's taken a kicking off everyone, some of it fair but there's a lot of unjust shit thrown at him, the media are killing our club! So yeah I'm still here defending him.

Yeah, it's not the dire brand of football or the horrible run of form we are in that is killing our club. It is actually the evil media who are dismantling us!

 

[Todd]

Someone please explain to me how Mou or Pep could come into United, take the squad as it stands (quality or lack thereof, and injury problems) and get better results?

I'm just amazed at the impact you people seem to think a manager can have.

It's like you think that with a new boss all of a sudden Memphis is going to become Neymar; that's not how it works. These are still second-rate players we have.

 

[Rado_N]

Give it another read. Some claim it was 100% down to Fergie. Which is nonsense and insulting to those great players.

Fergie was magic and could drag us through bit the players were just as important. They wanted the success just as much and ran through walls for him. It tool a hell of a long time to get to that point though and plenty of comings and goings.

If LVG can't get players to believe in him then that's on him.

He's been here long enough and brought in enough of his own transfers that there's no excusing him.

You and a few others are clutching at ever diminishing straws and making some frankly ridiculous excuses that just aren't flying.

 

[Amethyst]

Someone please explain to me how Mou or Pep could come into United, take the squad as it stands (quality or lack thereof, and injury problems) and get better results?

I'm just amazed at the impact you people seem to think a manager can have.

It's like you think that with a new boss all of a sudden Memphis is going to become Neymar; that's not how it works. These are still second-rate players we have.

I think we need to allow our young attacking players like Martial and Memphis more freedom to make mistakes instead of just holding onto the ball just for the sake of it. Everything we do is far too safe and we should be playing to the strengths of our forwards by counter attacking at speed rather than trying to score a 'perfect goal' by walking it in.

 

[UnitedinRed]

If LVG can't get players to believe in him then that's on him.

He's been here long enough and brought in enough of his own transfers that there's no excusing him.

You and a few others are clutching at ever diminishing straws and making some frankly ridiculous excuses that just aren't flying.

No offence but you dont speak for me or others. Just because you feel they are excuses, there's still people who look beyond one man and at the wider issues.

I don't know your views but if you're one of those expecting instant turnaround. Good luck with that.

Some of the stick anyone gets who backs van Gaal even slightly is beyond tedious though. Not you, just in general over recent weeks.