Let's face it, losing to Stoke isn't the problem. It's everything else that has come before that also.
Is there anyone left who wants to defend lvg now?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Absolutely spot on, even allowing that it's an internet forum. The tone of the OP title is enough. 'Is there anyone', like defending Louis is some kind of disgrace; like a call to out any remaining misguided supporters. Feck me, you wouldn't have seen any stuff like this in The Shed End, even in the last days of Jose. I have great regard for LVG and great respect. Sure all is not rosy, as he acknowledges. But I will continue to support him and his backroom team, and the team he fields, not uncritically. I need some space to take this in, to wonder about the future and to dream. And I will always dream. But as I said in another forum, think of the Leicester supporters who have been through very very difficult times and stuck with the team, through the ups and downs and great escapes with Nigel Pearson. And you are right; the wider issues (within and without the control of the club) are ones to worry about.
What part of LvG's tactics do you believe are actually retarding our attacking risks?
Let me tell you a story about a youth player. His name is Jesse Lingard. He was at best a fringe squad player up until a few months ago. LvG gave him a chance? What has he done since? He has been one of, if not our most aggressive, risk taking, and attacking player. How has LvG rewarded him? Did LvG banish him for taking risks? Did he stop giving him game time for being aggressive and gambling?
Nope. He has promoted Jesse Lingard from fringe squad player to one of our most frequently used attacking midfielders.
Do I need to give you further evidence? Memphis Depay. From day 1 Memphis has taken massive risks whenever he has touched the ball. He has been highly aggressive and direct. He was constantly trying to beat 1 or 2 men, constantly trying to attack. How did Memphis actually perform? He lost the ball almost every time he attempted to take on his man. He was killing our build up play in the process. How did LvG reward him? Did he banish him to the bench? It took over a month, maybe two? before LvG finally put Memphis in time out which directly resulted in Jesse Lingard getting his chance.
Anyone who tells you that LvG is restricting our players ability to attack doesn't know what they are talking about, and have absolutely zero understanding. Before people get high horsey on me. I'm not saying his tactics are ideal, i'm not saying he is using the best tactics. However, there is a lie going around, yes a lie, or at the very least a disingenuous suggestion that LvG is actively restricting the creative freedom of our players and therefore stunting the attacking potential.
This is wrong. I've given two concrete examples to prove why this is wrong.
The simple fact is, our players are just not executing creatively. Not because of tactics or orders. Two of our most direct, attacking, and risk taking players this season have been given all the chances and opportunity in the world. One was given more time on the pitch than he deserved because of his aggression, and the other has been rewarded with a regular first team spot. because of his aggression.
I welcome anyone who disagrees with this, to provide a well reasoned analytical counter argument with actual evidence to support the idea that LvG is sitting players down saying "DON'T TAKE RISKS!!!!!!", without making a leap from "our attack is bad so he must be telling them to not take risks".
I for one loved the promotion of Jesse Lingard while a twice as talented kid was carted off to Germany on loan. Genius it was. Who needs a squad.
It was januzaj who wanted to go on loan. Van gaal said the premiership. Januzaj said dortmund. Van gaal said it was a bad idea. Fans make their own mind up.
You mean that twice talented kid the Dortmund fans think that is by far not good enough. Too slow for the wing and not intelligent and technically good enough for a more central spot? I cannot tell about Lindgard, but I do not think Januzaj would be a big help...
The same reason van gaal tried to turn him in to a striker...
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Now you said it. A spineless, clueless fraud of a manager.
After the entire epistle you've written, you still didn't say why the players are not executing creatively? I guess they just chose to be intentionally not execute any of Van Gaal's hallowed philosophy for shits and giggles.
This is how I feel. The fans have largely ignored the ownership and debt issues (albeit after an initial attempt to highlight it with the Green and Gold campaign), basically because we've been hugely successful. I'm not criticising it, it's simply human nature. Now that the success seems a way off, everyone and everything is in the firing line. It's the manager, it's the players, it's the club legend, it's the ex-manager, it's the board, it's Bobby Charlton, it's the owners.
RAWK said that it was all Fergie and that once he was gone it would all come crashing down. I expected a drop in standards and success and I think it's the reason I'm not calling for people's heads now that the scouse prophecy has come to pass
We are so precious it's untrue. Manchester United has no God given right to be successful and we've mocked other clubs for years for sacking managers left, right and centre, yet here we are acting hysterical because we're 6th and playing shit football. Yet the 'plastics' of Chelsea were overwhelmingly behind their manager when they were in the bottom half of the table despite being champions last year.
So you don't see any difference between people wanting to defend Moyes after 6 months into the job and backing LVG after 18 months? I would like to know how many wanted LVG out in December 2014 when we had struggled in the first few weeks. That would be a more apt comparison.https://www.redcafe.net/threads/do-you-want-moyes-out.380229/
2 years ago. Interesting read and interesting to posters who wanted him to stay. Many of those now want LVG gone no matter what. Both were going through a bad patch however post #131 sums it up for me. Moyes staying til April made the next mans job far more difficult and it should be taken into account.
We took a giant leap backwards under Moyes. Zero progression of any kind.
Some of the posters in that thread though
See, I too can search old threads and find posters comments that show them up.
The only ones seemingly backing LVG happen to be the most important in this scenario. Until he loses the support of the boardroom we're stuck with him!
I suspect Victor Valdés won't be one to defend LVG
Can literally feel your seething anger from this post (a good one btw). Get a beer, enjoy the game and let's see if you get your wish later...
First of all, what's with the passive-aggressive, condescending tone of that post? What I said was pretty mild and innocuous, yet your response is though you're genuinely hurt by something I said.
Now, to answer your questions.
I don't think the problems are solely down to his tactics and I agree that the players need to do more, but I was responding to a specific post about what a new manager could do differently. In my opinion, we move the ball far too slowly when transitioning from defence to attack. Van Gaal's emphasis on possession means players too often play it safe in an attempt to control things, instead of asking questions of the opposition with more incisive passing. You mentioned Memphis and Lingard (which I'll come back to), but one player who has been given more minutes than either and is one of those guilty of taking a risk adverse approach is Juan Mata. You said yourself in this thread he looks invisible a lot of the time. In contrast, a player who improves us considerably in terms of linking defence and attack and has the ability to unlock back lines is Ander Herrera. I understand that he and Mata don't play the exact same position, but how Herrera struggles to get game time is mystifying to me and a lot of others. Another big problem this season with the attack, is Van Gaal's insistence on playing Rooney and making him the focal point, despite him being shocking almost every time he's played. As a result, Martial finds himself shunted out to the wing when he should be central.
As far as Memphis, Lingard etc., you may have some valid points. However, I don't feel that our approach helps our wingers and it makes their job more difficult. If the passing was sharper and/or we hit teams on the break, the opposition would be stretched and we would create better chances with our wide players given more time and space to trouble the opposition fullback. Di Maria's best work for us at the beginning of last season was when we moved the ball quicker and he had space ahead of him to run at the defence. At the moment everything takes too long and because whoever we play can get back into shape, the wingers receive the ball and they have fewer options. No, I don't believe it's as simple as van Gaal sitting down and saying 'don't take risks'. His tactics are not the reason why our attack suffers, but it contributes.
Last season we finished fourth in the Premier League, but I believe we created fewer chances than a relegated QPR side and it was our second smallest collective total in the Premier League era (62). Moyes' team that finished three places lower managed to score more. Van Gaal then made drastic changes by getting rid of Falcao, Van Persie and Di Maria (plus loaning Januzaj) from last year's team and brought in Martial and Memphis (and promoted Lingard). And with a mostly different set of players, the result is that after 18 games we've scored 22 goals, our top scorer has 4 and we're on course for our worst ever haul. Meanwhile the teams sat in the top four places have 37, 31, 37 and 31. That we've struggled yet again to score this season even with the transfers makes me think it's more than just a coincidence.
Very successful fraud isn't he. What are you if he's a fraud?
None at all. Moyes had been in England 10 hears plus. Van Gaal 18 months. Taking into account the massive task he had, the new league, the time to adapt, rebuild and assess the situation.
Moyes had a much easier job because he didn't have to clean up anyone's mess. van gaal came into a club in a right state.
He was successful early career
He hasn't shown anything a united to suggest his methods are relevant any more
He hasn't shown anything this century for that matter. He won Budensliga with by far the best German team, and he managed to get into semis of WC scoring 2 goals in 3 KO matches (one of them being in a penalty after a dive by Robben).
He might have been the best manager in the nineties, but he has been very average this century.
Not a fraud definitely, but as important as Trapatoni or Capello nowadays.
Direct comparisons between those two don't work for a variety of reasons, but you left out that Moyes was a huge gamble (even his staunchest supporters admitted as much) whereas LVG was generally perceived as both a more progressive manager AND a much safer pair of hands.
Several of the posters you highlight as being pro Moyes after six months, and anti LVG now, turned on Moyes fairly shortly after that thread ran its course. Moyes lost the Caf several months before he was sacked. LVG didn't until a couple of weeks ago.
It's also worth mentioning that Moyes had very few actual supporters, i.e. posters who sang his praises. It was "let's be patient" more than "he's a brilliant manager". LVG is very different in that regard - as are his supporters.
I am Jose Mourinho, big redcafe fan.
That is not a fair comparison. By the same reasoning you can say that Moyes got two transfer windows while LVG has already got 3. He has brought in more players than Moyes and sold the players he didn't want. This is his team. So why should he be cut more slack tha Moyes?
Come on matey, Moyes' **** was definitely stronger than Van Gaal's **** here.
Van Gaal started getting criticized from the very beginning because of the boring play. Criticizing Moyes before February resulted on 5 people screaming at you to 'go and support City/PSG', calling you a gloryhunter, putting you on ignore etc.
It makes sense than LVG lost the Caf only recently. Considering all things, the first season was an okay job so it would have been harsh to call for his sacking. This season though, he has been worse than Moyes on his first season. And God knows, Moyes was awful.
What happened to you. We were both delighted with him summer '14 and were sure he would put Rooney in his place. One of the few times that I am wrong regarding football matters...
He did get to a CL final with Bayern as well though...
Yeah, but that isn't what I'm talking about here. I don't recall anyone claiming that Moyes' actual methods were great - or that his "philosophy" was precisely what the doctor ordered.
You had the t0pred element shouting down people on general "stand by the manager" principle. You had people like me, defending Moyes against what I considered irrelevant and spurious criticism (not to say abuse). You had both those sets preaching patience in the post-Fergie world. You had all that - and it was all misguided enough. But it wasn't anything like an actual **** of Moyes - and therein lies the difference. I can't think of a single pro Moyes poster on here who was an actual disciple of the Moyes "philosophy": He didn't have one, simply put, unless you consider banning chips and buying iPads a philosophy.
I still think he did great job in the transfer department. We have much stronger first team than ATM when he took over, we have some amazing young talent's and i like that he gaved opportunity to young players because they will benefit from it in the future. We have a thin squad which i think we will benefit from it because we have free spots to add quality players where we need them.
Saying that, he lost dressing room and I can't see that he can turn it around.
Saying that, he lost dressing room and I can't see that he can turn it around.
I was completely wrong. Like you!
Saying that, I think that LVG was the right choice back then because simply he was the best available manager. However, his biggest mistakes were done this summer when he decided that Rooney is a God, and that we don't need more than 20 players to finish this season. If he didn't decide to sell half of the players and to change Old Trafford name to Wayne Rooney, I think that he would have been completely safe and we would be in a better position.
Anyway, I think that all things considered he did a relatively good job in the first season, but a very shit one in this. I never thought that LVG will be a great success here, just that he will fix some of the shit that Moyes created. And well, he has been a ticking bomb in pretty much every club, so it just exploded here a bit faster than it should have been.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing, obviously. However, I think that it made sense to hire him back then, similarly how it makes sense to hire Mourinho now. I am not a seer though, it could end with similar results.
Again you lot dont understand why he is relevant. He was bought to both bayern & barcelona at crisis point.. Very similar to how we got him as manager.
At both clubs he got rid of the selfish players : the rivaldo's, luca toni's and then promoted youth. He didn't just promote them, he fixed them.
Alaba from DM to LB.
Badstuber's clarification of being a CB & not a LB.
Schweinsteiger from RW/LW to CM
Muller stopped playing on the wing and became a permanent fixture in the centre.
Xavi was hardly relied on but ever since guardiola got injured, Van gaal gave him more of a defensive responsibility in midfield & became their principle playmaker.
He was also very reliant on Thiago Motta's career.
The rising of robben only ever happened after his move from madrid to bayern. He turned from an inconsistent winger to arguably the 3rd best player in the world.
"Thank you to Louis van Gaal, for showing the courage necessary to gamble on a talent that only he could see. He began building this historic Barça side, which I have been privileged to be part of. My heartfelt thanks."
That's Valdes talking about his influence on Xavi, Puyol, Valdes & Iniesta.
He gave debuts to nearly 3/4 of the players above.
As people have said, if he had failed at bayern & barcelona then why the hell did we hire him?
Arguably because he didnt fail, he was always bought in a time of need & even though he personally left each club in a similar manner where goals were not reached- for some reason the clubs only really ever improved. Be that rijkaard, guardiola or heyckness. I mean to this day the success of these clubs have not stopped whether they have a cancer struck tito vilanova or a relative newby in luis enrique winning a treble. Every one of them was & is successful.
He has started something here & i have been expecting him to crumble like he always ends up doing. Juwt if we could hold it together until january, i'm sure he could bring in this right type of player - similar to the likes of martial in the gaps in our squad.
Hi Jose. How's your break been?
That's it, though, isn't it? He reaches that point where he has to go. I asked this question in another thread a while back: What are we waiting for? The good spell, where his system has been grasped by the players and results (and football that is easy on the eye) follow? Or the bad spell that inevitably follows the good one? We haven't had a good spell at all compared to his previous managerial stints at top clubs. The closest we had was that brief run last season.
Nobody will deny that Bayern benefited in several ways from his time there. Key figures at that club - who have been critical of him in other regards - have admitted as much.
But is this an argument to keep him in charge when we look more like a team deep in "bad spell" than one in "good spell just around the corner"? If we persist with him solely because he's doing good work behind the scenes, we better be bloody sure that we have a top notch manager in line waiting to take over.
Very well put. Nontheless there was a problem with dwelling on the ball, indecisiveness and slow build up. He didn't admit that publicly, but he adressed the problem. To me it seemed quite obvious that they had been working in training on patterns for attack and in sync movement off the ball.
I agree, but that doesn't mean Van Gaal isn't also to blame. I'm sure he sees it as the job of the players to come up with ideas in the final third, but if they don't do enough of that, he has to make it his job. He's got to help them, appearantly they don't see the possibilities the system (the manager's job) offers, the manager has to show it to them and invent some training exercises. He was late with that, and when it started to bare fruit the squad was hit by a wave of injuries, encountered a big disappointment, started gifting goals an everything went in a downward spiral.
This was of course ignored by the media, and by the majority of the Caf. I've seen a lot of people stating that they'd prefer losing when were only attacking more, but as soon as the results went, those statements went to.
No, it isn't. The WC 2014 wasn't a partial success, it was a huge success, he made them overachieve massively. Bayern's first year was a huge succes, AZ was a huge success. You want to go back further, why stop at 2000? Just to put to the desperate signing of Barca in it and exclude his pretty decent spell at Barca?
His last three jobs have shown he still can do things other managers can't. It's not just Ajax where he worked his magic. That doesn't guarantee success at United or in the PL, mismatches happen, or things can just go wrong for some reason. But to act like LvG is some mediocre manager is by twisting the facts, and you're not the only one here who keeps trying, is something I don't understand. Why?
Is it because you like the thought that if the mediocre manager is sacked and a good one will come in, the problem is solved, the future is bright and United will soon challenge for the treble again? I'll have to disappoint you, it won't. Van Gaal was signed because he has a habit of overachieving, because he can rebuild and because he can change the style of football. The overachieving didn't really come off yet, that's disappointing. But that problem can only be solved by signing a manager who does, and there aren't many of them. Guardiola has never done it, Mourinho hasn't done it for years, I'm afraid your convincing your self there's a quick and easy fix by making Van Gaal look bad. But if Van Gaal can't manage to take United back to the top after many years of neglecting the squad, it's United who has a very big problem.
I thought to that was his big mistake, but the game against Stoke showed that without him there's a lack of leadership.
This is brilliant in fairness, can't let it go off the boil
LVG may convince him to turn to the dark side by offering him a happy meal
In Louis we trust
Obviously lost the dressing room.
All we lack is the right players and a but of patience whilst our younger players grow up.
I won't mind him getting sacked if we get a proper manager in, but when our players are missing open goals, you can't help but feel for him.