How Much of the Blame Should be on the Players?

[Walrus]

This is not a "Keep LVG" thread - I think he has played his part and needs to be replaced.

But can it all be attributed to LVG? We saw under Moyes when the players effectively downed tools, and in my opinion its not far from that sort of situation again now.

Pundits all say that the players look bored, or scared, or like they do not have any license to be creative, or any number of things. Again - clearly some of this comes from the manager, the rigidity, the instructions to the players etc... but I have to question whether some of the players out there are really even putting in 100% and trying to win the game - several seem happy to just go through the motions, recycle possession and pass off responsibility to someone else. None seem willing to try to take the game by the scruff of its neck and make a difference - Martial and Memphis perhaps being the two exceptions.

 

[rpitchfo]

I honestly think they are trying - they forced moyes out and know they can't get awat with it again. Most of these players are another manager from finding themselves at Sunderland

 

[DomesticTadpole]

This is not a "Keep LVG" thread - I think he has played his part and needs to be replaced.

But can it all be attributed to LVG? We saw under Moyes when the players effectively downed tools, and in my opinion its not far from that sort of situation again now.

Pundits all say that the players look bored, or scared, or like they do not have any license to be creative, or any number of things. Again - clearly some of this comes from the manager, the rigidity, the instructions to the players etc... but I have to question whether some of the players out there are really even putting in 100% and trying to win the game - several seem happy to just go through the motions, recycle possession and pass off responsibility to someone else. None seem willing to try to take the game by the scruff of its neck and make a difference - Martial and Memphis perhaps being the two exceptions.

I don't think they are doing this off their own backs or he wouldn't pick them. It is team orders and they are now too scared to disobey.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I honestly think they are trying - they forced moyes out and know they can't get awat with it again. Most of these players are another manager from finding themselves at Sunderland

There aren't many left from the Moyes days. I think they are just following orders and have now lost all their confidence to try anything until things get absolutely desperate.

 

[Someone]

The lack of characters within this team is incredible, never disliked so many united players in my life.

 

[DWelbz19]

A sizable amount. Shit tactics deployed on a lot of shit players.

 

[Roboc7]

The tactics are awful, there is no pace, no width and no one who can beat a man, the team is set up to keep the ball, be rigid, not take risks and keep passing the ball in central areas side to side.

The players are trying but this isn't a well balanced or particularly good team and the tactics and team selection are awful.

 

[MadDogg]

I honestly don't think our players know what they are expected to be doing in an attacking sense. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to anything we do besides pass it around and keep possession.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

I was very close to starting a similar thread, there are so many moments during games where our players make the kind of mistakes you don't expect at this level and that have absolutely nothing to do with the manager. I don't see what hitting the first man on crosses when you are in acres of space has to do with the manager, making passes cross field with the opposition right in the way to intercept again has nothing to do with the manager.

 

[Judge Red]

LVG was brought in as a no nonsense replacement for Moyes who wouldn't allow the players to slip like they did the previous season.

I think at this point they'd rather play for Moyes.

 

[prath92]

Players are equally responsible imo. Van Gaal has done shit stuff over the last month or so. However Martial Lingard and at times Memphis have been playing with absolute freedom which begs the question why is it that Mata and Rooney seem restricted?

 

[SalfordRed1960]

I would place 60-70% of the blame on the players.

I have seen a pretty consistent approach from LVG for 18 months, yet it is the players who make the difference.

A few examples to get the message across Young vs. Chelsea and Swansea, Martial vs. Swansea, Depay vs. Sheffield United, Lingard, Smalling, and Shaw vs. all teams. In all these cases the players played with a freedom, they played with confidence, but also used the ball sensibly, and were positionally strong. LVG is not going to tell players not to move, not to pass the ball forwards, not to take on players. He gives them the tools and hopes that they use them. It requires confidence and also lack of fear. I think that because LVG is direct and tells players they fecked up, some do play with an amount of fear. Not sure who you blame in this case, the player for being weak, the manager for motivation, the coaching staff for motivation?

Even in today's post match, we hear the same message coming out from LVG, the players have to move the ball quicker when teams are sat back. It is the players that are not moving the ball quicker.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We are going backwards, instead of building on the good things from last season and improving them, he has torn up the instruction book and gone off in all sorts of different directions. The players who were already here and had learnt what he wanted last season must now be wondering what the hell system we are playing.

 

[Red Dreams]

the buck stops with the manager.

 

[Jazz]

The players should definitely take some blame, no question about that. I refuse to put all their mistakes down at the feet of the manager. Some of those mistakes are inexplicable for professional players. I keep hearing how the dressing room isn't 'fun' - well maybe that's half of our problem there? I may be old fashioned or something, but I think the list should go something like this - work hard, show tenacity and desire, stay disciplined - these things should give you the best chance of winning, then have 'fun'? What's the point of complaining about 'fun' when they are other urgent things to be concerned with, principally, the lack of wins?
Just what kind of mentality is that?

We know the manager is at fault for quite a lot, but where is the desire to win? Where's the urgency when they're on the field? How can professional sportspeople be so poor mentally?
So yeah, they have to take some responsibility along with the manager.

 

[golden_blunder]

90% of the blame with the manager. He picks the team, he motivates them, he trains them, he gives their directions

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I would place 60-70% of the blame on the players.

I have seen a pretty consistent approach from LVG for 18 months, yet it is the players who make the difference.

A few examples to get the message across Young vs. Chelsea and Swansea, Martial vs. Swansea, Depay vs. Sheffield United, Lingard, Smalling, and Shaw vs. all teams. In all these cases the players played with a freedom, they played with confidence, but also used the ball sensibly, and were positionally strong. LVG is not going to tell players not to move, not to pass the ball forwards, not to take on players. He gives them the tools and hopes that they use them. It requires confidence and also lack of fear. I think that because LVG is direct and tells players they fecked up, some do play with an amount of fear. Not sure who you blame in this case, the player for being weak, the manager for motivation, the coaching staff for motivation?

Even in today's post match, we hear the same message coming out from LVG, the players have to move the ball quicker when teams are sat back. It is the players that are not moving the ball quicker.

So why aren't they moving the ball quicker? They are capable of doing it. Is it lack of confidence that if they give it away they will get a bollocking. Or that when they look to move it quick the options aren't there? He might be wanting them to move the ball quickly but if it has to be accurate all the time and they get yelled at if it isn't, then they will play it safe.

 

[Theonas]

The players are clearly instructed to keep their positions to stretch the game and ensure numerical superiority and space dominance. This requires a lot of work and lessens spontaneity and unpredictability. It would be foolish not to conclude that this affects our attacking play. The problem however is that this not unique to Van Gaal. Henry spoke extensively about how Pep pretty much ordered the same from his players. He gave the example about how in one game, he felt isolated on the left so decided to drift inside to get involved more. It worked and he scored a goal, Pep's response? substituted at half time because he didn't follow orders. Henry said that Pep would tell them that his job is to get them to the final third and from then on, they can be creative and take risks. This doesn't sound different to LvG at all. The argument however is, is LvG too stubborn to realize that this doesn't work if you don't have Messi and Iniesta in your team? On the one hand, I can see him thinking that once his players can do that in the final third, it will all be pretty much perfect. On the other hand, you think this is clearly not working and it is time to try something else. It really is a conundrum as we are stuck between an ideal that hinges on a lot for it to work and it clearly is not working.

 

[Red Dreams]

90% of the blame with the manager. He picks the team, he motivates them, he trains them, he gives their directions

end off.

 

[Sphaero]

I posted it in the post game match vs. Sheffield aswell, but it probably fits here better:

If a single player underperforms or plays in a certain way, it might be be done to him, but if it happens in such a collective manner, it is down to the manager. Just like the cross festivals under Moyes, this extreme possession obssession without any motivation to create cutting edge comes down to play style. This is not some slump this team needs to overcome, this is the way you are envisioned to play by your manager, just a bit more successful.

You need to start presenting yourselves as top club again and this is not just about the quality of your play, but also the way you set out to play the game. Your biggest concern when you enter a match is simple: "Keep the ball at all costs. Don´t conceed goals, do not lose". This is why United values possession so highly and avoids risks so adamantaly because it means less danger to lose. Creating chances and scoring goals are less important.

This is a viable way to set out a team... if you are a small club trying to get something vs the bigger fishes in the sea, However, if you are suppossed to be on top of the food chain it comes across as needlessly negative and cowardly. If you don´t consider yourselves as top club, then others will sooner or later see it the same way and it will get increasinlgy difficult to get the players who might improve you.

 

[The red panther]

I'd wish they'd stopped listening to the old fart and started playing football again, 2nd half against Swansea looked like that but it seems he has them all under his mind control again.

I'am starting to hate this team more than how we were under Moyes and I really tought that was just absolutley impossible.

I still think the biggest blame is on LVG. Unlike Moyes who just seemed to have no impact on the team whatsoever, LVG seems to have alot of impact with his methods and his talks but it is not the impact any of us wanted to see. We have become a organised possession based defensive machine but we just don't attack and can't score. I really think the players have become shit because of him. We need to fire him and get a coach that can undop the brainwashing LVG has been up to for 1.5 years that has them playing like zombies.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

i blame the players for the lack of tempo in the passing.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I posted it in the post game match vs. Sheffield aswell, but it probably fits here better:

If a single player underperforms or plays in a certain way, it might be be done to him, but if it happens in such a collective manner, it is down to the manager. Just like the cross festivals under Moyes, this extreme possession obssession without any motivation to create cutting edge comes down to play style. This is not some slump this team needs to overcome, this is the way you are envisioned to play by your manager, just a bit more successful.

You need to start presenting yourselves as top club again and this is not just about the quality of your play, but also the way you set out to play the game. Your biggest concern when you enter a match is simple: "Keep the ball at all costs. Don´t conceed goals, do not lose". This is why United values possession so highly and avoids risks so adamantaly because it means less danger to lose. Creating chances and scoring goals are less important.

This is a viable way to set out a team... if you are a small club trying to get something vs the bigger fishes in the sea, However, if you are suppossed to be on top of the food chain it comes across as needlessly negative and cowardly. If you don´t consider yourselves as top club, then others will sooner or later see it the same way and it will get increasinlgy difficult to get the players who might improve you.

Agree completely.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I'd wish they'd stopped listening to the old fart and started playing football again, 2nd half against Swansea looked like that but it seems he has them all under his mind control again.

I'am starting to hate this team more than how we were under Moyes and I really tought that was just absolutley impossible.

I still think the biggest blame is on LVG. Unlike Moyes who just seemed to have no impact on the team whatsoever, LVG seems to have alot of impact with his methods and his talks but it is not the impact any of us wanted to see. We have become a organised possession based defensive machine but we just don't attack and can't score. I really think the players have become shit because of him. We need to fire him and get a coach that can undop the brainwashing LVG has been up to for 1.5 years that has them playing like zombies.

Maybe they should just lock him in the toilet before the game and go out and do their own thing.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

So why aren't they moving the ball quicker? They are capable of doing it. Is it lack of confidence that if they give it away they will get a bollocking. Or that when they look to move it quick the options aren't there? He might be wanting them to move the ball quickly but if it has to be accurate all the time and they get yelled at if it isn't, then they will play it safe.

I actually think they moved it quicker today than previously, just not quick enough for such a well structured defense. I also saw a lot of movement from Rooney (who I have bashed all season, but been more impressed last 3 games) & co was better. I think the problem is more the midfield, doesn't matter who we have played there Schmidfield, Carrick, Rooney, Fellani they all slow the play down and are not quick enough to catch the front line players. Might just be me, but Herrera, Lingard and Martial have moved the ball very quickly.

If a player won't try something because he thinks he will get bollocked, I personally wouldn't put him in the team. I think today was the first time I have seen Depay actually try and beat someone down the wing, he did it twice and it was brilliant to see as Martial has been doing that all season. He could have done that all season, but he hasn't because he didn't have the confidence. Probably not induced by LVG, more the fact that the first few PL games he played he was in the pocket of the RB.

 

[pacifictheme]

I honestly think they are trying - they forced moyes out and know they can't get awat with it again. Most of these players are another manager from finding themselves at Sunderland

Most of the players who got rid of moyes are gone.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

The players are clearly instructed to keep their positions to stretch the game and ensure numerical superiority and space dominance. This requires a lot of work and lessens spontaneity and unpredictability. It would be foolish not to conclude that this affects our attacking play. The problem however is that this not unique to Van Gaal. Henry spoke extensively about how Pep pretty much ordered the same from his players. He gave the example about how in one game, he felt isolated on the left so decided to drift inside to get involved more. It worked and he scored a goal, Pep's response? substituted at half time because he didn't follow orders. Henry said that Pep would tell them that his job is to get them to the final third and from then on, they can be creative and take risks. This doesn't sound different to LvG at all. The argument however is, is LvG too stubborn to realize that this doesn't work if you don't have Messi and Iniesta in your team? On the one hand, I can see him thinking that once his players can do that in the final third, it will all be pretty much perfect. On the other hand, you think this is clearly not working and it is time to try something else. It really is a conundrum as we are stuck between an ideal that hinges on a lot for it to work and it clearly is not working.

It is the same instructions that Arsenal players are given, but they do not have a problem at the moment (unless the meet Bayern). The key difference is that they move about constantly, however, they have been found out many times because of their positional play. We have all laughed at Arsenal getting a kicking and playing on their weaknesses. It is not easy to have both speedy attacking movement and defensive positioning to counter the opposition.

 

[The red panther]

Most of the players who got rid of moyes are gone.

Ah man I'd wish Rio, Vidic, Evra were still here, they'd know how to work out LVG if the board is too damn ignorant to do it.

 

[Red Dreams]

Maybe they should just lock him in the toilet before the game and go out and do their own thing.

I think you are one to something. But I would lock him in there before every training session too.

 

[ottosec]

Obviously everybody needs to take the blame for this, but I think it's mostly the manager. I think it's because players said feck it and played different we did well vs Chelsea and Swansea 2nd half.

Since LVG came only one player improved and all the others turned to shit, that can't be a coincidence. Also, every player we sign seems to do well in the first month or so, then he learns the philosophy and turns to shit.

Also I see them giving it all most of the games, if they wouldn't be arsed with Chelsea and Swansea LVG would be gone. I think we have a professional group of players.

 

[The red panther]

It is the same instructions that Arsenal players are given, but they do not have a problem at the moment (unless the meet Bayern). The key difference is that they move about constantly, however, they have been found out many times because of their positional play. We have all laughed at Arsenal getting a kicking and playing on their weaknesses. It is not easy to have both speedy attacking movement and defensive positioning to counter the opposition.

I'd rather get a kicking now and then but see my team atleast try to play positive football with a good win and amazing performances as a result from time to time.

 

[Theonas]

It is the same instructions that Arsenal players are given, but they do not have a problem at the moment (unless the meet Bayern). The key difference is that they move about constantly, however, they have been found out many times because of their positional play. We have all laughed at Arsenal getting a kicking and playing on their weaknesses. It is not easy to have both speedy attacking movement and defensive positioning to counter the opposition.

Exactly! Which is why a team that managed it perfectly like Barcelona was one in a lifetime. And it still needed the best player ever to make it work so perfectly. It is hard to achieve but I can understand why some managers like LvG insist in trying to make it work because if it does, you're pretty much set, you dominate, you barely ever have to defend and therefore give yourself the best chance possible to win against anyone. The problem is when it isn't working like us now, it is the dullest, most tedious piece of rubbish you can watch. I really don't know what should be done.

 

[The red panther]

I think you are one to something. But I would lock him in there before every training session too.

I'd say lock him in the toilet untill the end of the season and see him rage quit when we let him out in may.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It is the same instructions that Arsenal players are given, but they do not have a problem at the moment (unless the meet Bayern). The key difference is that they move about constantly, however, they have been found out many times because of their positional play. We have all laughed at Arsenal getting a kicking and playing on their weaknesses. It is not easy to have both speedy attacking movement and defensive positioning to counter the opposition.

The thing about movement. Arsenal players all move. Our problem is that some move and then turn to pass to someone else on the move and that person might be 10 yards behind them standing still. They all have to be on the move or it doesn't work.

 

[arthurka]

If Ranieri can get Leicester top at the new year LVG should not be 5-6 th with this squad.. It's 95% him..

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Limited amount, they are doing what they are asked, as they should.

It is no coincidence that Mata, Rooney, Herrera, Depay, Schweinstegier, etc look a shadow of the players we know they can be, Martial is also not progressing as it looked like he could.

I just hope LvG isn't given the chance to sell some of these players and replace them with potentially worse ones in the summer, they in general are not the problem.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

Exactly! Which is why a team that managed it perfectly like Barcelona was one in a lifetime. And it still needed the best player ever to make it work so perfectly. It is hard to achieve but I can understand why some managers like LvG insist in trying to make it work because if it does, you're pretty much set, you dominate, you barely ever have to defend and therefore give yourself the best chance possible to win against anyone. The problem is when it isn't working like us now, it is the dullest, most tedious piece of rubbish you can watch. I really don't know what should be done.

With Barca they had very mobile and creative front line players and a workaholic midfield with legs. We have neither, yet. Maybe in the future Depay and Martial will have another player with their speed and movement. It might then be a joy to watch. The likes of Schmidfield and Carrick do not have the legs to be a mobile midfield.

 

[dichinero]

Tbh, I don't think this players are as bad as we are seeing them. Most of them have shown better quality performances outside United to suggest that they have it in them but it doesn't help we have have too many of the same quality of players without having a decent number of players that player at a higher level and can put in quality performances. If we broke this team and spread them into the best teams in the world, we would be witnessing a higher level of individual performances. Bar the tactics, this is where I believe he has got it wrong, relying on Rooney to be the sole provider of this needed world class spark has backfired badly. He is left with a bunch of players that have no one to look up to. Having these kind of world class players around you does give you as significant boost as a player, even if it is just a 5-a-side match. DDG is the only WC talent we have in the squad, some of the squad have the potential to be very good to WC level but right now are really just strength in depth potential.

That said, ALL players have the responsibility to carry out instruction son the pitch. I believe every instruction with the view on wining has the potential to be perfect, whether it be possesion, counter attacking, fast, slow etc. It all comes down to having the players to adhere to them and having the required ability to translate it 100%. It's all down to efficiency. If your team have the ability and can obey every instruction, then you will reap success.

I believe our team, as a whole, are lacking in quality and may not be able to translate the given instruction well enough.

 

[Garethw]

We are going backwards, instead of building on the good things from last season and improving them, he has torn up the instruction book and gone off in all sorts of different directions. The players who were already here and had learnt what he wanted last season must now be wondering what the hell system we are playing.

the buck stops with the manager.

90% of the blame with the manager. He picks the team, he motivates them, he trains them, he gives their directions

Bingo!

When the entire team consistently under performs then the blame has to be laid at the door of the manager.

 

[Theonas]

With Barca they had very mobile and creative front line players and a workaholic midfield with legs. We have neither, yet. Maybe in the future Depay and Martial will have another player with their speed and movement. It might then be a joy to watch. The likes of Schmidfield and Carrick do not have the legs to be a mobile midfield.

Can't argue with any of that really. You make valid points that I agree with. My point is that I can understand why he believes in this so much. The potential of the way we are playing is very high indeed. If you can control possession and space like we do as well as score goals, you are as invisible as it gets in modern football. The question for me is whether is it an unrealistic ideal that needs tossing away because it clearly is not only not working, but tediously boring. Or keep the faith in the hope that we bring in players that would make it the formidable force it can be.