Its hard to debate with a body of people who amongst them have people wanting Jose Mourinho as manager.
Is there anyone left who wants to defend lvg now?
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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Almost anything would be better than what we have at the moment, our football is just terrible man.
I for one think Jose would be a good shout to be our next manager....if we cannot attract pep and ancelotti has already gone to Bayern.
I feel we are almost as bad as when Moyes was here, it's just so dull and boring.
Without an adequate replacement (both manager and players)it won't really matter much when he goes. Yeah the football might get a bit better but in the long run it will still be the same. New day, different reasons to complain. The problems run a lot deeper than just the manager even if the manager takes the most blame rightly. Turning it around will be hard and a long struggle.
Yeah, what's he ever won?
The man who won last season's premier league? And who will be the last manager to win a Champions League with Porto or Inter unless something dramatic happens with the structure of European football? I'm not even sure I want him myself given recent events but drop the outrage given people on here are advocating a bloke with zero-experience other than being part of two failed coaching regimes (and whose "baggage" makes Mourinho look like a saint).
Them 2 are clowns anyways.
Exactly. . He's finished as a top manager and lacks the insight into the club that Giggs would have. What this club needs is a huge giant injection of fun.. release some pent up frustration and Giggs is best placed to alleviate these issues.
He'd be a great man manager who'd make the Wags feel especially welcome.
Not defending him as such because I feel his decisions on transfers have created our problems to some degree. However, I'm staying patient for now because I don't believe there is an obvious solution within the current squad that he is ignoring.
For us to be more entertaining with this group of players we need to surrender the initiative more and play on the counter attack with the pace of Martial and Depay.
LVG is stubborn and is unwilling to go that way and obviously favours the possession game. It IS possible to play possession football AND be entertaining and if we ever get there under LVG it would be great because it's the most difficult way to play and the most difficult style to play against. We obviously need to take more risk than we currently do in the final third which we could and should be doing with the players we have currently. However, we do also need more direct threats out wide. Mata is not that style of winger, Depay is struggling and Young is not of the desired quality. We made a mistake, in my view, letting Nani go when we did and now need to go into the market to try and fix this problem.
If we can get the right player in then I would expect things to improve quickly. If we can maintain the kind of control we have in matches at the moment but manage to start creating 4-5 chances in each game then we will win most of our games.
If we can't get Pep then I don't think there is a clear candidate that ticks all the boxes for the majority of the support so for now I'm trying to stay patient and praying we find the right wingers to fix this.
For us to be more entertaining with this group of players we need to surrender the initiative more and play on the counter attack with the pace of Martial and Depay.
LVG is stubborn and is unwilling to go that way and obviously favours the possession game. It IS possible to play possession football AND be entertaining and if we ever get there under LVG it would be great because it's the most difficult way to play and the most difficult style to play against. We obviously need to take more risk than we currently do in the final third which we could and should be doing with the players we have currently. However, we do also need more direct threats out wide. Mata is not that style of winger, Depay is struggling and Young is not of the desired quality. We made a mistake, in my view, letting Nani go when we did and now need to go into the market to try and fix this problem.
If we can get the right player in then I would expect things to improve quickly. If we can maintain the kind of control we have in matches at the moment but manage to start creating 4-5 chances in each game then we will win most of our games.
If we can't get Pep then I don't think there is a clear candidate that ticks all the boxes for the majority of the support so for now I'm trying to stay patient and praying we find the right wingers to fix this.
Absolutely nothing to do with it. We dont know if these seasons fall with Chelsea is something to do with him or if it was the players. The chavs current results suggest it was him. So yeah lets replace one struggling manager with another one ffs. Just wait the season out and see what happens. LVG wont be going anywhere until at least the summer.
Fair point and I watched the Chelski match; it wasn't easy. That said, I think the overarching concern is that under LVG we are stuck in a rut of continuing poor performances with no light at the end of the tunnel.
I watched the Chelsea match and don't think Sheff were better than Scunthorpe. To be fair Chelsea had a difficult time too but they did look much better than we did going forward. We just looked flaccid as usual.
Yeah, its hard to know really. We are just so toothless. We lack players from CM who can dribble past defenders, we have nobody offering that option so are pretty predictable.
I don't agree, I do agree there's a problem, but it is that contrary to his former teams, the light comes and goes. They keep slipping back into indecisive slowness.
That is also bad for the entertainment value. I do agree there have been a lot of boring matches, and allthough it takes two teams to make a boring match it is United's problem. But there are a lot of boring matches in general, and it's not just dwelling on the ball that makes matches boring, also consistent failure to pass the ball to a team mate makes poor and boring football and there's a lot of that in the PL and in the FA cup. But United is singled out, and the entertainment value is made into a problem much bigger than it should be and normally is. It's a bit strange that United is hold to two standards, both in results and entertainment, and to the highest standards, while it's a club in a rebuild which we all knew would not be an easy ride.
To me it seems more logical that clubs like Chelsea and City, with much more expensive players and where has been build on for years, were judged harsher on entertainment value and that United would have been cut a bit of slack.
What players in Chelsea's squad were much more expensive than United's? As far as I know they have a significantly lower wage bill and spent less money in transfers to assemble the squad they have right now than United did.
City's matches are fairly entertaining in my opinion. When they're having a bad match, it's usually a very open affair in which they look awful in midfield and defense. It allows the opponent to be great and therefore it's still entertaining to watch. They don't hog the ball, they're always very direct.
The problem with extreme possession football is in general that you don't allow the other team to play, you deny them the ball. It's a fundamental piece of it and when your own team sucks at creating chances, the majority of the game is played out with no chances for either side. It's excruciating to watch. Shifting the blame to the other team makes zero sense, because they simply can't get the ball often enough to entertain if United keeps it endlessly in safe areas without taking risks. If you play such an extreme version of the game that constantly leads to one sided dominance on the ball, you're responsible for the entertainment to a much higher degree in comparison to a team that's happy to share the ball equally with the other team.
City's matches are fairly entertaining in my opinion. When they're having a bad match, it's usually a very open affair in which they look awful in midfield and defense. It allows the opponent to be great and therefore it's still entertaining to watch. They don't hog the ball, they're always very direct.
The problem with extreme possession football is in general that you don't allow the other team to play, you deny them the ball. It's a fundamental piece of it and when your own team sucks at creating chances, the majority of the game is played out with no chances for either side. It's excruciating to watch. Shifting the blame to the other team makes zero sense, because they simply can't get the ball often enough to entertain if United keeps it endlessly in safe areas without taking risks. If you play such an extreme version of the game that constantly leads to one sided dominance on the ball, you're responsible for the entertainment to a much higher degree in comparison to a team that's happy to share the ball equally with the other team.
The question is how long you can realistically expect people (fans and media alike) to cut him slack. The reason United have been singled out is twofold (as always, with us): 1. We're United and stories about our fall from grace are easy to peddle. 2. We have been genuinely dreadful to watch far too often during his reign for this to pass without comment.
You can acknowledge the need for a rebuild whilst at the same time question whether the standard of football on display is a necessary byproduct of such a rebuild. That's where it's at if you look beyond the inevitable moaning from the more impatient set of fans. At no point during his initial season was there a majority of posters on here who wanted him gone. Fairly deep into his second season, the same was true. The current mood on here is recent. So, from a certain - and perfectly reasonable - point of view he has been given slack. But slack can't be cut for ever, that's the very nature of slack - it doesn't last if there's no visible sign of progress.
Comment is well deserved, complaining is deserved. That's not the point, the point is not that it's important to the fans at OT, the point is that commentators and pundits act like it's of great importance. And not after the match, they start moaning after 10 minutes, or even when there's just a spell of 10 minutes of dwelling on the ball. But there are a lot of matches that take a while before they get going, or start fading out before the second half, there are also a few matches every week which were dull from the start tot the end. Those things happen, but for United even 10 minutes of dullness are such a big deal. I agree that there has been an excessive number of overall dull matches from United, but other clubs are never held to this standard.
If there are visible signs of progress they get ignored because they don't fit the narrative. There is a lot of work done about the creation of chances, november and december were much better than september and october. But then the results got poor. When the results were good, it was too boring, when it wasn't boring, the results suddenly turned out to be much more important, when there were enough goals scored, there weren't enough shots, when there were enough shots, there weren't enough shots on target (so the players should shoot at the keeper more instead of aiming for the corner appearantly), when there were enough shots on target, there weren't enough goals, when there were enough goals from enough shots and enough shots on target the opponent didn't have enough points, chances were waisted and there were too many sideways passes.
I understand where the mood comes from, and the fans have a right to be moody, but it's only a mood. Let's not act like a mood is all there is and the judge of everything.
This is true, no question about it – but it comes with the territory: Whatever baby steps are actually visible will be largely ignored because the overall impression simply isn't satisfactory. I think the short series of matches last season where we seemingly clicked and played football most were very pleased with is relevant in this debate: The way people reacted to that series tells its own story. The fans were genuinely pleased with genuine progress in terms of – precisely – the overall impression. But that's what it will take at this stage – something far more obvious and wide reaching than a slight improvement in this area or that. We go from being dull to being downright terrible – and then back to being less terrible again. That is progress, of sorts, but it isn't the sort of progress people crave. And that is understandable – it's not unreasonable nitpicking or extreme impatience. Not halfway through his contract.
The back-and-forth'ing you describe above takes place in a certain context, namely a largely unsatisfactory overall picture - that's the key point here. The impression most fans have at the moment is not one of a team gradually improving, ironing out creases, suffering a setback here and there but generally doing better and better. If that had been the case, we wouldn't be seeing this level of negativity towards the man and his philosophy - in one sense it is just as simple as that.
The season isn't over yet.
Mourinho will be a credible alternative when he starts using young players and planning for the future. Something he's never done. His trophy record is excellent of course.
Some people are still clinging to the notion that we haven't got good enough players. That's rubbish. We've got good players, some better than others. What we don't have is a good team, and that is down to the manager - who would be given the credit if things were going well, so why not when they're not?
It's just not feasible that all our players have suddenly become bad overnight. Have they always been bad? In which case there's a managerial responsibility there too.
We have eleven individuals who appear to not have a clue what to do with a football. I'm assuming it isn't to do with a curse, so it has to be down to confusion and/or fear. Are they scared of losing possession as that appears to be the b all and end all of LVG's philosophy.
On the pitch, they are a shambles. On Saturday, how many times was the ball put into the centre with no United player - let alone a striker - on the end of it. Chris Smalling taking corners?? Martial on the wing when he's patently better in the middle - same for Mata. Rooney, the lone striker, half the time anywhere but in the penalty box. There's no structure, no cohesion, no formation. And players who do perform well, or at least better than most of the others, are invariably dropped (unless you're called Rooney). How can a player - e.g. Ashley Young - develop any kind of self-belief, motivation or consistency?
Losing isn't the problem. It's the way we're playing, pure and simple. We went 26 years without winning the title, and we were frequently mediocre - but we always had charisma, and we always tried to entertain.
Sorry - this whole debacle isn't down to the players and what's really worrying is that good players who might once have walked on burning coals to play for United, will now be looking elsewhere, so this could be the start of a major decline if something isn't done before it's too late.
I'm unsure about Mourinho - but I think he could attract players. I'm not sure LVG can. Everyone talks about being given time. Nice in theory, but it's a gamble, and if it doesn't pay off where does that leave us...floundering mid-table with a tarnished reputation that is unlikely to attract big names - something we've always been able to rely on in the past, because we were Manchester United. Right now, we're a laughing stock, and we've never been that. We should never have appointed David Moyes, a manager who never won anything, and although I can understand the appointment of LVG, I'm not sure his background was looked into thoroughly - there's a lot of stuff coming out now from previous players which ring too true to ignore.
Apart from that, he's not even a likeable person.
It's just not feasible that all our players have suddenly become bad overnight. Have they always been bad? In which case there's a managerial responsibility there too.
We have eleven individuals who appear to not have a clue what to do with a football. I'm assuming it isn't to do with a curse, so it has to be down to confusion and/or fear. Are they scared of losing possession as that appears to be the b all and end all of LVG's philosophy.
On the pitch, they are a shambles. On Saturday, how many times was the ball put into the centre with no United player - let alone a striker - on the end of it. Chris Smalling taking corners?? Martial on the wing when he's patently better in the middle - same for Mata. Rooney, the lone striker, half the time anywhere but in the penalty box. There's no structure, no cohesion, no formation. And players who do perform well, or at least better than most of the others, are invariably dropped (unless you're called Rooney). How can a player - e.g. Ashley Young - develop any kind of self-belief, motivation or consistency?
Losing isn't the problem. It's the way we're playing, pure and simple. We went 26 years without winning the title, and we were frequently mediocre - but we always had charisma, and we always tried to entertain.
Sorry - this whole debacle isn't down to the players and what's really worrying is that good players who might once have walked on burning coals to play for United, will now be looking elsewhere, so this could be the start of a major decline if something isn't done before it's too late.
I'm unsure about Mourinho - but I think he could attract players. I'm not sure LVG can. Everyone talks about being given time. Nice in theory, but it's a gamble, and if it doesn't pay off where does that leave us...floundering mid-table with a tarnished reputation that is unlikely to attract big names - something we've always been able to rely on in the past, because we were Manchester United. Right now, we're a laughing stock, and we've never been that. We should never have appointed David Moyes, a manager who never won anything, and although I can understand the appointment of LVG, I'm not sure his background was looked into thoroughly - there's a lot of stuff coming out now from previous players which ring too true to ignore.
Apart from that, he's not even a likeable person.
I am right in thinking he went through a similar time at Bayern(?), and was in a similar position at this stage of the season with the fans really angry, then he went on to win the league?
Good post. One of my biggest frustrations with LVG is his stubbornness and unwillingness to change the approach. I mean it has been 18 months and we still have the same problems: struggle to break teams down; pedestrian slow football and a general lack of creativity. We have seen him chop and change formations and team selections. But the one thing that has remained consistent is the style of play. It's bizarre. The players have to be criticised as well, the majority of them are underperforming. But IMO the change has to come from the manager first. I would just like him to try something different. Each home game follows the same pattern: entertaining 10-15 minutes at the start of the match- we then don't score the crowd gets anxious and we begin to play predictable sideways football- the opposesion have some decent counter attacks which will probably be best chances in the match- 0-0 at half time. Second half follows a similar pattern apart from an entertaining 5-10 minute spell towards the end of the match.
In regards to Nani, I don't think it was the wrong decision to sell him but to not replace him was an awful decision.
I am now convinced that City are paying LvG more each month.
People talk about our squad as if its complete shit sometimes and you are right, that is not the case.
We are capable of beating most sides in the EPL if we were coached appropriately.
Its true there is blame to share all round, but it has been clear to me for a while that LVG has run out of ideas and ways to motivate the squad and we either change quite a few players of get a new manager....but he has spent so much money on players he has no idea where to use, why bother with him anymore?
Which player in their right mind wants to play for LVG? With him we are a "project" no better than the likes of PSG was years ago.
I concur, Jose would be able to attract players, even with the rough season he had...his track record speaks of itself.
Didn't read a single post in here. But I will say that I will support van Gaal as long he is the manager of Man Utd. I did the same with Moyes. Once they leave, I'll wish them well and support the new man in charge.
Good for you mate. Fair enough.
I will call him a cnut, mainly because he is one and I'm sick of being bored to tears every time I watch his so called philosophy fail week after week...changing nothing.
I'll support the shirts of course. Otherwise I'll call it as I see it. An arrogant bellend full of his own shite, and either too stubborn or too thick to realise it's not working.
That is a noble stance to take (and no, I'm not being sarcastic) and I'm sure one that many fans hold in one way or another.
It does however gloss over the wider issue of whether you are able to defend his actions/decisions to this point. Of course you remain hopeful that he will turn it round but as of now are you able to say that you are happy with the results of his tenure? That we are on a clear path to better times? Was there not a point where you saw that Moyes going was merely a matter of time and even though you continued to show support you knew that him moving on was for the best?
Yeah, I'd probably agree with half or more of what you said. And it has been incredibly frustrating most times in his 18 month reign. But I can't just stop supporting him or call for his head. There are people placed well up in the stratosphere for deciding exactly that. They may not always make the right decisions, but I know they will do whatever is best for the club.
My patience does wear very thin on many days though, and I made several posts right here on who our next manager should be. But I'd never resort to booing him. But even I am quite doubtful how long I can keep it up.
Yeah, totally. Everyone could sense Moyes's time was up and it was just a question of when.
As for van Gaal's actions, I can't defend all of them. He has indeed made some infuriating decisions that would leave me to pull out my invisible hair. And I am sure there are so many posters that have pointed out his several flaws time and again. But I have seen positives as well (Maybe I am clutching at straws here, but straws are still very much tangible). And as you said, I remain hopeful that things will eventually work out for the better. Call it blind faith if you will. But if you were the manager at the club, you would want as much support as possible, and I'd be the same. So as fans, we have to give him that. We may not owe it to him, but we do owe it to the club we all cherish.
As for your question if we are on a clear path to better times, I think we are. We still have a very good squad, which is relatively young. With a couple of additions, we won't be far away from being a regular menace in Europe. That's my opinion anyways.
He has completely ruined the fun of watching the team I love for me. I'm genuinely dreading the match tonight yet I feel I have to watch out of obligation.
- If the football is good it's because something has gone wrong and he will have it fixed for the next match.
- Winning just buys him more time.
- New signings will maybe get about 3 games before he philosophy's them.
- Young players coming through will be thrown to the wolves(he did Powell no favours at all) or treated weirdly.
- Playing well means nothing to him, you could play well and not be seen for a month afterwards.
- Rooney.
Where is the joy to be had here? As long as he is in charge football is a chore and obligation rather than a passion. He took that away.
- If the football is good it's because something has gone wrong and he will have it fixed for the next match.
- Winning just buys him more time.
- New signings will maybe get about 3 games before he philosophy's them.
- Young players coming through will be thrown to the wolves(he did Powell no favours at all) or treated weirdly.
- Playing well means nothing to him, you could play well and not be seen for a month afterwards.
- Rooney.
Where is the joy to be had here? As long as he is in charge football is a chore and obligation rather than a passion. He took that away.
Mind your tin foil hat on the way out son.
I think you need to hang around up here a bit more. We have this strange thing called joking.
I feel the same. I have 2 very young kids, so tape the games to watch when everyone else is in bed. What a waste of time its been........... I have to work this evening, so will stay up until 0100 to watch a recording. Not expecting much.......and wonder how long I'll keep it up tbh.
I'm kinda the same. I wanted Moyes gone, early doors.
But I'm absolutely happy to stick with Van Gaal until the end of the season though, even if the football is a bit crap.
Sky and BT are our biggest customers. If the company that I worked for gave their customers substandard products then we would soon hear about it. Man Utd have a brand image to live up to. That involves entertaining our customers customers, it's why we are on the tv so often. If we are not doing that first they will complain then they will move on to another brand who will entertain their customers.
If we continue to bore we will see fewer and fewer Man Utd matches on tv. This will reduce our revenue greatly. Then will reduce our advertising opportunities.
The one thing i like about him at the moment is that he isn't throwing any players under the bus. It's clear we have a mediocre attacking force at the moment, and he could easily say we aren't scoring because the players aren't good enough, but unlike mourinho, he's wise enough not to make that mistake, and that's the reason he hasn't lost the dressing room completely yet.
Oh the irony
sill unbeaten , bowed yes , shit yes but undefeated! get in!
Anyone remember Moyes' epic undefeated streak that people were clinging onto as great signs for the future?
I liked this point. I still like LVG, I don't think he wants to play as boring a game as we have been, but it's risk mitigation. After tonight (much as I actually enjoyed it), you can see why. He's doing what we can with what he's got.
But, he's been here for three transfer windows now. He's moved a lot out but hasn't brought in any real quality (besides Martial and some young players with potential) to defence or attack despite the fortune spent. We should be further in our development by now and he's got to take some criticism for that.
Anyone remember Moyes' epic undefeated streak that people were clinging onto as great signs for the future?
we had that earlier this season , undefeated but shit. but if you play shit and get a draw it's only a matter of time that you get nothing. unless he changes his ways we'll be lucky to be in the hunt for a european spot. not CL but any place in europe.