I honestly believe that's simply hindsight. If Di Maria did not work out in midfield, we could easily be talking about how he is a "traditional" winger because of his pace and body type. Switching positions requires tactical intelligence and tactical intelligence is one of those things that us arm chair fans will simply never know more about than managers, especially the best ones. It's not like obvious qualities like pace, technique, etc. Of course they get it wrong a lot of time but when they do get it right, it always seems like "well that one made sense". Remember how much resistance our fans showed to Martial wide for example?
Clichy and Sagna as playmakers
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
They are not playmakers. Do you even understand what a playmaker is? Its not a player playing in between defense and midfield. They were Midfielders tasked with defensive contribution and providing freedom to 4 other midfielders. They were not playmakers. You can city's silva as playmaker, may be de bruyne and fernandinho too. Playmaker is not a position, its a role. You need to understand that.
Yep. I'm praying we can hit the ground running since we have them at OT 4 games in.
The start of season has never been so important imo.
He has just extended his contract till 2021, his salary being around 12m €/year.
When Sagna was moved into the 10 position he was a play maker, no?
Guardiola is very similar to LvG. Makes brave tactical choices whilst playing possession based football, bur unlike LvG he actually manages to pull it off.
I'm sure he'll come unstuck in the same way, mind. Trying to be too clever for his own good.
I'm sure he'll come unstuck in the same way, mind. Trying to be too clever for his own good.
That was throw the kitchen sink tactic, just like throwing goalkeeper forward on a corner does not make him a" Goalscorer" he was NOT a playmaker
Yeah but that usually happens in the dying minutes unlike what we saw with Sagna.
He played them both as ball players regardless. Clichy was especially bad at it.
No idea why he didn't play 4-1-2-3.
Willy
Zabaleta Stones Kolarov Clichy
Fernandinho
KDB Silva
Sterling Aguero Nolito
Zabaleta Stones Kolarov Clichy
Fernandinho
KDB Silva
Sterling Aguero Nolito
As silly as the idea of forcing midfield roles onto Clichy and Sagna may be, I think in the end it did serve a purpose. It made it a lot easier for City to play out of the back, and retain control/passing options in midfield. Maybe later in the season, when he has Gundogan and Kompany back, then actively trying to provide options will be less of an issue.
Pep is Santiago Kinder Bueno.
To quote Blade, Some motherfecker's always trying to ice skate uphill.
To quote Blade, Some motherfecker's always trying to ice skate uphill.
He pull's it off because at clubs such as Bayern and Barca it is easier to risk playing a player or two out of position, or experimenting with tactics because the rest of the team can pick up the slack most of the time. With City he has a lot more work to do. That is not to say he cannot work wonders at City but it will prove to be a more difficult task. LVG's experimentation came unstuck horrifically at Leicester, and I would imagine that if Pep continues with today's tactics he will be exposed in the same way by any one of a number of clubs. That is assuming that he will continue with these tactics although I would hazard a guess that the overly attacking line-up today was intended as a potential tactic for the smaller sides to blow them away.
Thats not what we are arguing are we? Like i said a playmaker is the one who orchestrates attacks, finds a pass. They started as MidfielderS, their average position in the game was at base of a midfield ahead of 3 defenders. A 3-2-4-1.
Ditto
It is good news for us because his tactics were a complete mess today. Worse than Jones on corners.
When have Bayern sold a world class player? Even Real Madrid struggle to get players off them. This isn't Dortmund you dealing with.
Kroos?
He was sold by bayern as surplus to requirement. Also they got Xabi alonso in return who was better than him. Also Kroos aint a Top top player.
Kroos' sale was the biggest feck up in regards of transfers in the past 25 years, and the result of a gamble gone south. However, all our current key players are on longterm contracts, and you'll have to go back to Lothar Matthäus in 1987 to find an example for us selling under such conditions.
That to me is the most fascinating part about Pep at City. I was a big believer in developing a style of football where you dominate and defend from the front. I felt that since we're never going to have another Fergie, we might as well embrace a footballing ideology that produced not just serial winners, but teams with such a clear and enviable identity. It obviously did not work with LvG trying to implement that and the question is; was he not good enough or is the PL simply much, much more difficult to allow you to develop that? How Pep performs at City will go a long way in answering that.
He is. And his sale is still haunting us.
Good lord. Do you even hear yourself?
Clichy had the most touches and made the most passes in the 79 minutes he was on the pitch, so he was in essence presented with the responsibility of being a playmaker.
I agree! People got it in their head that Real can just get whoever they want when the reality is that apart from Ronaldo and Figo, they never got a player off of a top team. By a top team here, I mean one that is consistently competitive and capable of paying the highest wages. Bayern are certainly that and I don't expect to see them lose anyone they don't want.
It's not that he played as a central midfielder, he was basically given a free role on the left of a midfield 3 so he was half covering on the wing for when Ronaldo went inside, and other times just driving through the middle. Alaba played in midfield when he started out his career I think and Van Gaal changed him into a left back I'm pretty sure. Lahm was always one of the most intelligent footballers and was versatile on either side of fullback, so that's also a rare exception where most would just keep him in his best position.
Sagna and Clichy are average fullbacks and completely different cases. They aren't midfielders or capable of doing that role effectively and Guardiola will realize that very quickly I think.
By turning the fullbacks into centre mids when attacking, the actual centre mids are able to push further forward without leaving space behind them. The team effectively has 5 players occupying the centre and half spaces in midfield. The DM, the 2 fullbacks, the the 2 CMs.
Setting the team up this way allow space to be covered more effectively. The team is so equally spread out in every direction that it makes it harder for the opponent to shift to one side when defending. It creates more space for everybody, but especially out wide. Because the opponent's DMs and wide midfielders MUST guard the centre of the pitch and can't double up on the the winger, leaving him more space to go 1v1 against the fullback.
Yes he is.
Well yes, that's the reason he likes it and it enables him to have more possession. It's suicidal play though, especially in the premier league. A better side then Sunderland and they would have lost. Any away game and they probably would have lost.
I will admit, Di Maria always looked an out and out winger when i saw him in the early years. Perhaps him as a central AMF was out of the blue but i understood why he could play there - pace, eye for a pass and good work rate. Even Lahm, i always thought he was a clever fall back, wouldnt only rely on his crossing but good runs in central positions. If anything i always thought of him as a LCD as he always used to tuck into the back line - similar to how Brown used to in the 2007/08 season or how Blind operates when playing LB.
Perhaps it'll work out for them but neither Sagna or Clichy strike me as good on the ball or clever enough to play that position.
Even in terms of role they weren't true playmakers, taking up such a position where you'd normally see a playmaker do his thing, for a limited player, is incredibly stupid. It is probably what Brwned meant and it wasn't the most difficult thing to understand tbh.
Yes. KDB was playing full back at times. Even Silva got sucked into those positions.
It's just Baldy being a hipster cnut. Nothing to see here.
Exactly, I think it’s because he’s a visionary™
I don't think we are really that far apart. My point was more about the general attitudes. Football fans tend to always be "keep it simple, play to their strength, don't complicate things". Yet managers do that all the time and the second it doesn't work, the experiment provides a very easy obvious criticism.
He's had and has better players than LVG ever had in England.
I missed the first 60 minutes of the game so have no idea how they played. But anyway, it's the 1st game of the season. I don't see the problem in giving it a try.
Also why is it suicidal play, especially in the PL?
Some people here have said Lahm/Alaba didn't play the role before Pep joined Bayern.
Even as fullbacks, Lahm/Alaba have shown far more talent then these two ever have.
Even as fullbacks, Lahm/Alaba have shown far more talent then these two ever have.
It will cost them occasional goals, I think so too. They still have enough firepower to outscore most teams, though. The interesting thing will be to observe how they are going to fare against the top teams.
Bodes very well for the coming season. I'm sure he'll come up with all sorts of unconventional tactical dispositions to revolutionize the Premier League as the season unfolds, and I am looking forward to seeing it happen!